69 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

1453 R, on 09 March 2024 - 08:32 AM, said:

So I was looking at weapon stats on Sarna last night and realized I'd forgotten something real important about the plasma cannons/rifles. Namely, they're ammo-based weapons despite being 'energy'. Stock of ten shots per ton of ammo (which makes no goddamned sense the ammo is literally packs of foam you would get more than ten blasts from a one-ton pack of foam). That could really put a damper on plascannons being 'The Awesome cLPPC Alternative' for smaller 'Mechs. Any clues so far on what sort of ammo load is gonna be necessary for these things? Damage per ton, shots per ton?

No ammo, the current code doesn't allow ammo for energy weapons to be a thing. That said, the plasma cannons will be 2 slots on release to limit the modeling effort to add the weapon.

[1453 R]

Ahh, thanks Quicksilver. So...yeah. Basically a reskinned LPPC on the Clan side, with bonus heat damage that will almost certainly be so minimal as to be effectively negligible because otherwise massed plasma cannon fire would be horrendous.

Good to know!

[Ttly]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 09 March 2024 - 09:11 AM, said:

No ammo, the current code doesn't allow ammo for energy weapons to be a thing. That said, the plasma cannons will be 2 slots on release to limit the modeling effort to add the weapon.

Why would ammo on energy weapons be impossible in this game?
Machine guns exists already and they're hitscan weapons, or lasers in another word.
Burst-fire ballistics also exists, a chemical laser equivalent wouldn't be too different than a burst autocannon with the hitscan properties of the machine guns/other lasers.

If you want to argue why ammo-energy shouldn't be in the game you could go with the "match durations are short enough that ammo based energy weapons would just be practically superior in everyway because ammo management is a joke"
But no, you're citing a technical reason that it just can't be coded in instead.


Unless weapons are so spaghetticoded in that just because a weapon is in the yellow energy category they can't use ammo ever.

Edited by Ttly, 10 March 2024 - 08:32 AM.

[Alexander of Macedon]

Ttly, on 10 March 2024 - 07:51 AM, said:

Why would ammo on energy weapons be impossible in this game?
Machine guns exists already and they're hitscan weapons, or lasers in another word.
Burst-fire ballistics also exists, a chemical laser equivalent wouldn't be too different than a burst autocannon with the hitscan properties of the machine guns/other lasers.

If you want to argue why ammo-energy shouldn't be in the game you could go with the "match durations are short enough that ammo based energy weapons would just be practically superior in everyway because ammo management is a joke"
But no, you're citing a technical reason that it just can't be coded in instead.


Unless weapons are so spaghetticoded in that just because a weapon is in the yellow energy category they can't use ammo ever.

Because canonically most DEW in BTech do not use ammunition. Balance-wise, the main trade-off with energy vs. ballistics is that you get no ammo restriction (or vulnerable, explosive ammo bins) in exchange for higher heat gen. Chem lasers are the main exception and there's not really anything added to the game by their inclusion.

[Ttly]

Alexander of Macedon, on 10 March 2024 - 09:06 AM, said:

Because canonically most DEW in BTech do not use ammunition. Balance-wise, the main trade-off with energy vs. ballistics is that you get no ammo restriction (or vulnerable, explosive ammo bins) in exchange for higher heat gen. Chem lasers are the main exception and there's not really anything added to the game by their inclusion.

That wasn't the statement at all, Quicksilver at post #21 cited that and I quote
"No ammo, the current code doesn't allow ammo for energy weapons to be a thing."
Infering that the reason of the lack of "ammo-based energy weapons" being technical than anything else.

While my reply in regard to this was that "machine guns and burst-fire weapons exists and works similarly to how an "ammo-based energy weapon" would.
While adding that "if there's any reason ammo-based energy weapon shouldn't be in the game it's because ammo management isn't that big of a deal rather than anything technical", paraphrasing.

I get that a lot of people just love to speedread, but these are forums, you can just take your time on these sort of stuff.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ttly, on 10 March 2024 - 07:51 AM, said:

Unless weapons are so spaghetticoded in that just because a weapon is in the yellow energy category they can't use ammo ever.

Not spaghetti code so much as that is typically what makes energy weapons different from ballistics so that's how it was coded initially. Hit scan being supported by both doesn't really matter because that's a different concept.

That said, I'm okay with it because the ammo based energy weapons are pretty goofy. The plasma rifle is probably the best of them but the rest like the chemical lasers and heavy flamer are pretty awful.

This is the same reason we can't have a laser that behaves like the Spartan Laser with charge-up and a short duration, because charge-up is tied to ballistics or ammo-based weapons.

[Ttly]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 10 March 2024 - 02:12 PM, said:

Not spaghetti code so much as that is typically what makes energy weapons different from ballistics so that's how it was coded initially. Hit scan being supported by both doesn't really matter because that's a different concept.

That said, I'm okay with it because the ammo based energy weapons are pretty goofy. The plasma rifle is probably the best of them but the rest like the chemical lasers and heavy flamer are pretty awful.

This is the same reason we can't have a laser that behaves like the Spartan Laser with charge-up and a short duration, because charge-up is tied to ballistics or ammo-based weapons.

Why did you even stated that "current code doesn't allow energy ammo weapons" then? Please sober up and reread what you just said yourself at post#21.

Also gauss rifle/HAGs exists already, just change the projectile into a hitscan one with laser vfx and you'd literally have a "spartan laser" which otherwise doesn't exist on Battletech.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ttly, on 10 March 2024 - 02:16 PM, said:

Why did you even stated that "current code doesn't allow energy ammo weapons" then? Please sober up and reread what you just said yourself at post#21.

How about you get some your thick skull reduced? The code is a limitation, yes, however people who don't know anything about coding throwing around the term "spaghetti code" doesn't win you any points. "Spaghetti code" is just the result of design decisions that no longer quite apply and the code base was never given time to be adjusted to accomodate it, and fwiw, that decision is only impacting us in maintenance mode so it was probably the better decision (which is not a problem in MW5).

Ttly, on 10 March 2024 - 02:16 PM, said:

Also gauss rifle/HAGs exists already, just change the projectile into a hitscan one with laser vfx and you'd literally have a "spartan laser" which otherwise doesn't exist on Battletech.

You throw the word "just" pretty freely there...

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 10 March 2024 - 02:40 PM.

[Ttly]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 10 March 2024 - 02:40 PM, said:

How about you get some your thick skull reduced? The code is a limitation, yes, however people who don't know anything about coding throwing around the term "spaghetti code" doesn't win you any points. "Spaghetti code" is just the result of design decisions that no longer quite apply and the code base was never given time to be adjusted to accomodate it, and fwiw, that decision is only impacting us in maintenance mode so it was probably the better decision (which is not a problem in MW5).


You throw the word "just" pretty freely there...

How about you get some your[sic] thick skull reduced? The code is a limitation, yes, however people who dismiss argument just because it contained a "buzzword" doesn't win you any points.

There's no reason the same code used for the gauss charge and burstfire weapon cannot be reused for a hypothetical "charge-up laser weapon that uses ammo" just because you deem it so.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ttly, on 10 March 2024 - 02:44 PM, said:

There's no reason the same code used for the gauss charge and burstfire weapon cannot be reused for a hypothetical "charge-up laser weapon that uses ammo" just because you deem it so.

I don't deem it so, that's coming from PGI themselves. So again, take your ignorant self elsewhere or keep talking like you understand something that is clearly outside your grasp.

[Ttly]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 10 March 2024 - 03:03 PM, said:

I don't deem it so, that's coming from PGI themselves. So again, take your ignorant self elsewhere or keep talking like you understand something that is clearly outside your grasp.

"I don't deem it so, that's coming from the devs themselves because I deem it so."

No, not unless you cite a source. You clearly have the memory of an elephant to remember this tidbit, I'm sure you remember which forum post it was.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ttly, on 10 March 2024 - 03:05 PM, said:

No, not unless you cite a source. You clearly have the memory of an elephant to remember this tidbit, I'm sure you remember which forum post it was.

It wasn't from the forums, it was from the cauldron discord.

Here is one about energy ammo:
https://cdn.discorda...7e35c187a23780

Here is one about charge up on weapons without ammo:
https://discord.com/...295913354928159

There are always ways it could be made to work, but that costs engineering time so go ahead and put your foot back in your mouth.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 10 March 2024 - 03:10 PM.

[Ttly]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 10 March 2024 - 03:08 PM, said:

It wasn't from the forums, it was from the cauldron discord.

Here is one about energy ammo:
https://cdn.discorda...7e35c187a23780

Here is one about charge up on weapons without ammo:
https://discord.com/...295913354928159

There are always ways it could be made to work, but that costs engineering time so go ahead and put your foot back in your mouth.

Seriously?
"Didn't want it to use ammo" and "Can't because there's no energy ammo section on the ammo tab"?

And hey look at that, you even admitted that "it's possible but it would take development time!"

Edited by Ttly, 10 March 2024 - 03:15 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ttly, on 10 March 2024 - 03:14 PM, said:

And hey look at that, you even admitted that "it's possible but it would take development time!"

I never said it wasn't plausible, code can be changed. However PGI took away dedicated engineers from the game so the likelihood of anything code getting changed is highly unlikely.

In the end, it doesn't really matter because energy weapons with ammo don't really add anything to this game. The only reason the plasma got added is because it exists in lore and can be used to fill a gap for Clans with regards to the lack of a light PPC which is what it pretty much is (nothing like in lore).

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 10 March 2024 - 03:19 PM.

[Ttly]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 10 March 2024 - 03:17 PM, said:

I never said it wasn't plausible, code can be changed. However PGI took away dedicated engineers from the game so the likelihood of anything code getting changed is highly unlikely.

Whoa, an 11 year old game running on skeleton crew! Where haven't I heard that before?

Alright, thanks for the explanation, still needlessly rude though when you could've just said in the first place:
"Oh by that (current code doesn't allow energy ammo) I meant that there are barely any coders in the development team so they can't be bothered to. Here's their statement on the matter because not everyone is on the Discord."

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Pretty sure my whole spiel on spaghetti code was cordial, your whole "sober up" bs is what started this.

Also, didn't think I would have to dig through discord to find those posts just because you didn't believe me.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 10 March 2024 - 03:34 PM.

[Ttly]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 10 March 2024 - 03:33 PM, said:

Pretty sure my whole spiel on spaghetti code was cordial, your whole "sober up" bs is what started this.

Also, didn't think I would have to dig through discord to find those posts just because you didn't believe me.

Yeah, because at post#26 you were saying gibberish.

"It's not spaghetti code, because it's the identity of the weapon categories and how they were initially coded!"
"Also it's okay cause ammo energy weapons would be silly (why?) plasma rifle is the best of them, but others like chemlas, hflamer are pretty awful (how?)"
"This is also why we can't have a Spartan Laser with charge-up and short duration because charge-up is tied to ballistics/ammo weapons (weapon mechanics are tied to weapon category???)"

So yes, reading something like that of course I have to say that it's gibberish and maybe you're drunk, it *is* Sunday in some part of the world after all.

Edited by Ttly, 10 March 2024 - 03:50 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ttly, on 10 March 2024 - 03:49 PM, said:

Yeah, because at post#26 you were saying gibberish.

"It's not spaghetti code, because it's the identity of the weapon categories and how they were initially coded!"
"Also it's okay cause ammo energy weapons would be silly (why?) plasma rifle is the best of them, but others like chemlas, hflamer are pretty awful (how?)"
"This is also why we can't have a Spartan Laser with charge-up and short duration because charge-up is tied to ballistics/ammo weapons (weapon mechanics are tied to weapon category???)"

So yes, reading something like that of course I have to say that it's gibberish and maybe you're drunk, it *is* Sunday in some part of the world after all.

Oh I'm sorry I didn't write out a research paper for you...

[LordNothing]

i wonder how many people on this board has even looked at game engine code let alone made changes to it or took on the task of writing their own. in my experience very few gamer's look behind the curtain. most of them end up parroting the usual excuses to why we cannot have x.

whats really going on is the cauldron are doing the usual mix and match that all modders end up doing in every game. they got a fixed set of mechanics they can choose from and can put them together like lego, and change some variables and some effects and you get a new weapon. these are simply the tools they have available to them. sometimes the pieces don't fit and a possibility becomes a dead end. sometimes they do and you end up with something awesome.

unless you can get into the underlying code you cannot add, modify or even fix the deficiencies in the existing building blocks. you cant even fix long standing engine bugs (and is that a rented blob or do they have the source). unless you actually sit down and do the modwork, how do you know what you can do?

[Curccu]

Ttly, on 10 March 2024 - 03:49 PM, said:

So yes, reading something like that of course I have to say that it's gibberish and maybe you're drunk, it *is* Sunday in some part of the world after all.

Everything Quicksilver wrote made total sense if you have been reading these forums/cauldron discord for a while.
Known issues that require coding and another known issue is that this game doesn't get almost any coding time unless it is critical for this game to run.