27 replies to this topic

[GreyNovember]

Because in 80% of all runs with them in quickplay, number pulled conveniently from gut feel, the end result is almost always ends in me being gutted because:

• The enemy team was not fill of lobotomites and actually tracked me as I move around to try and get backshots.
  
• The enemy team has their OWN fatty protection squad made of people who can reliably keep their lasers on burn or somehow have all of their SRMs hit the same location when they pull the trigger.

I'm aware that ECM is not a magical catch all device that makes or breaks a mech. The Black Lanner feels like a garbage 55 ton mech with armor that can barely take something sneezing at it, despite maxing everything out. As much as I want to make that thing work, it requires the enemy force be grossly incompetent, severely diminishing any enjoyment from playing it.

Jenner IIC likewise has so much raw potential firepower, even if not all the missiles hit, that it's just worth running to trade 1 for 1 in a match. Other mechs in this same speed range do not have this same immediate threat, or do it over time and at even closer ranges. The Huginn I believe, once upon a time, had a similar threat when it could spit out SRM4s stupidly fast and keep someone blinded.

I'd like to enjoy more than the select few chosen ones who have been blessed with ECM slots ( or are the Jenner IIC), but repeated drops where I do two digit damage before exploding because I was fighting peer opponents strongly discourages experimentation.

[Sneaky Snek]

Take radar deprivation nodes and keep an eye out for the beep/cockpit flash to alert you that someone just lost a lock on you. It's a really handy early alarm that you got spotted on approach and should probably pull back and come from a different angle.

Other than that, it mostly comes down to learning the maps and figuring out which flanks are typically the safest.
You're a light mech, you fight on your own terms, not the enemies.

[pattonesque]

in QP, people generally only pay attention to what they can see pop up as a red triangle. An issue with fast movers with no ECM is that they're oftentimes the first red triangle the enemy team can see, and therefore draw a lot of attention. What you wanna do is try to only choose safe engagements where the other team's attention is focused elsewhere.

part of this is going to come from developing your "feel" as to what is a safe engagement and what isn't. You may see an LRM boat by itself and want to jump on it, but if it's near enough to its own team or if it's within sight of something long range and scary, it'll result in you getting wrecked. If its teammates are otherwise occupied, however, then your engagement is likely much safer.

What you also need to do is to consider what a good engagement looks like. You have the advantage of speed and the disadvantage of fragility, so you should look to pop out of cover, fire, and then immediately get back into cover. Crucially, you should only do this as many times as you believe you can get away with it without taking significant return fire. you'll be showing up on the minimap every time you do it, so it's often a good idea to back off and reposition after a couple alphas if you get that "I'm about to get blasted apart" itch behind your eyes.

[JediPanther]

always keep moving and fight at max range of your weapons. Pulse (not x type) and er lasers are your best weapons. Blast some one in the back and run off when they start to turn around. Come back from a diffrent angle/spot and blast again. When you get enemy lights after you either run away to your team or decide you can take it out in a duel.

[GreyNovember]

Sneaky Snek, on 08 March 2024 - 05:02 PM, said:

Take radar deprivation nodes and keep an eye out for the beep/cockpit flash to alert you that someone just lost a lock on you.

THAT'S WHAT THAT IS?

In Retrospect, I do better with Novas, which are much slower, and still fragile. I suppose the reason for that is because, by the time the Nova gets into range to wreak havoc after going around, everyone else is already occupied.

Still, this feels like going really fast is a detriment, and I shouldn't bother with mechs that don't also have ECM and go 140. I have to sit around and take a coffee break before moving out, else I'll be spotted and that entire general area is on the watch for me.

[Meep Meep]

How you play a light is up to how you intent to use it. If you are wanting to do sneaky backstabs then ecm is very useful though if you know your maps you can use nape of earth travel to get to the enemy rear unseen in non ecm lights. It's harder but doable. But if you are wanting to play ranged flanks or be an ankle biter with the group then ecm isn't as needed since you won't always be the isolated target half the enemy team turns around to swat since there will be much more threatening red doritos for the enemy to worry about. Light play is very freeform and can be quite powerful but to balance it you can get one shot by most meta loadouts.

[GreyNovember]

Meep Meep, on 08 March 2024 - 05:50 PM, said:

It's harder but doable.

I'm sure it is.

I've had it done to me.

But this just tells me I'm incompetent, more than it says anything about that particular player's approach.

[dario03]

Depends on what builds you are talking about. But for the most part the main thing is to figure out what the proper amount of aggression is, when to harass, when to full push in, when to reposition a bit, when to fully run, etc. This will depend on how you play, what mech/weapons you have, how damaged you are, what mechs/weapons the enemy has, how damaged the enemy is, what your team is doing, time of day, windspeed, alignment of the stars, etc, etc. Basically it depends on a lot of things so there is no one right answer. I would probably try to pick a couple of fast mechs/build types that and run those for a bit so you can figure out what kind of positioning, aggression level, and exactly what builds works for you in them. Skill tree will depend on build but often structure/armor is good, agility tree and radar dep is also good since of course you want to avoid getting hit.
Heres a video I made a while ago that says Flea Guide but its really just an example match with some commentary on some basics and why I'm doing what I'm doing in a brawl Flea

Heres a match with a lppc Commando that can peak and shoot quickly at range

Ice Ferret with erml/hll that runs hot and needs longer expose time but does good damage at a bit of range

Some more links:
Piranha with some range so you don't have to get in close but has speed incase you want to
Space Fish - Return Of The Fishi (youtube.com)
3 Osiris matches with different builds
MWO - 6sxpl Osiris doesn't bog down (youtube.com) Osiris doing Osiris things. - YouTube Close mpl Osiris match - YouTube
Locust and Flea playlist
Locust - YouTube
Flea - YouTube

Edited by dario03, 09 March 2024 - 09:40 AM.

[TravelingMaster]

dario03, on 08 March 2024 - 10:08 PM, said:

Depends on what builds you are talking about. But for the most part the main thing is to figure out what the proper amount of aggression is, when to harass, when to full push in, when to reposition a bit, when to fully run, etc. This will depend on how you play, what mech/weapons you have, how damaged you are, what mechs/weapons the enemy has, how damaged the enemy is, what your team is doing, time of day, windspeed, alignment of the stars, etc, etc. Basically it depends on a lot of things so there is no one right answer. I would probably try to pick a couple of fast mechs/build types that and run those for a bit so you can figure out what kind of positioning, aggression level, and exactly what builds works for you in them.

I would like to echo the part about 'trying multiple types' bit, just from personal experience. I used to not like lights/fast mediums because they were squishy and I didn't know how to make use of the speed and agility. Then I started using a Viper, and loved the combination of speed and jumping combined with close-range combat. I then tried out the Mist Lynx, which is much smaller while playing similarly, and that's basically my main QP mech now, and I haven't played anything other than lights/fast mediums for a while now because I can't stand the slow, sluggish speed of bigger mechs now.

You gotta find your niche, even light 'specialists' don't really run every light build and have their own preferences, my preference is close-range with stuff like small pulse or SRMs, and even then I screw up and die too early or get focused early because I was too aggressive or messed up positioning. Playing lights/fast mediums is a higher-risk approach that, IMO, is just more fun. It sounds like you prefer a more skirmishing build that usually engages after the main body has drawn some fire, and there are builds for that using ER Mediums, PPCs, whatever. Check out https://grimmechs.isengrim.org for ideas that might appeal to you if you aren't aware of the site yet.

Edited by TravelingMaster, 08 March 2024 - 10:34 PM.

[MarcinT1981]

GreyNovember, on 08 March 2024 - 04:47 PM, said:

I'm aware that ECM is not a magical catch all device that makes or breaks a mech. The Black Lanner feels like a garbage 55 ton mech with armor that can barely take something sneezing at it, despite maxing everything out. As much as I want to make that thing work, it requires the enemy force be grossly incompetent, severely diminishing any enjoyment from playing it.

No offense, but Black Lanner is a very strong mech. Players completely underestimate him, just like Hellfire. What makes the difference is MASC. Many players only use it for faster speed and what really matters is a very large increase in accel/decel.
Try the variant with 6ERML and ECM, it is probably the easiest to play

[TheCaptainJZ]

Lights are hard to play. There's a few strong ones, and a lot of subpar ones. In the old days, a single light could move around the map pretty safely without getting decimated, but that hasn't generally been the case for a while. Lights work very well in pairs or larger groups. There's also a wide discrepancy in lights. Some are very fast, some are slow. Some can boat lasers, some mgs, some missiles. Some have challenging hardpoints to make the most of. Some are used as snipers, some as hit and run. Hit and run alphas seems to be the predominate type. Each one is really a pretty different experience.

If you're not one of the meta lights, you're probably better off sitting back and waiting with your main force until the battle gets underway. Once things turn into more of a brawl or you at least have a feel for where the enemy team is, try to be a force multiplier by weaving in and out among your own team and cover, rather than trying to be a backstabber and weaving among the enemy team. You won't get far if you try to weave in and around them. Once your team has killed more and more of them, then you know you can play more aggressively and weave behind the enemies with less risk. And this is where a light can make a huge difference--distracting the attention of the enemy team. They can do this at the start if they're a sniper and taking pot shots too, otherwise don't run in guns blazing until part-way through.

Of course, if you're playing Conquest, go for the cap points. Only the fastest lights should try to go for Theta or a risky point. Other lights should play it safe and go for whatever is the farthest but safest on your team's side. After capping a point or two, it's usually time to check the status of the engagement and determine where your mech is most needed. This is usually in the fight somewhere, but sometimes, if you're not alone, it might be good to seek out enemy lights that are still capping, especially on large maps. This might also give you a good opportunity to attack from the enemy's flank or backside as you join the fight.

[torsie]

Unless I know there is some place I can go I usually wait for people to start moving little bit before I go out.

Problem of light mech are you are too fast if you just run outside when game starts you will be alone with enemy team.
Its fun if there is lots of other small mechs with you, but alone is bad.

If we play conquest I got for capture points if I know there is some nice place to hide where I can shoot from I go there.
You can also stand with your team and chase enemy fast mechs away from your big ones.

I have 2 kinds of fast mechs. Long range it is same like your big hide and seek mech I just stand around shooting anything that moves from distance hide and if someone looks at me I run and jump and run away.

And mechs for shooting. I usually try to put many things so I can shoot all match. I like things like ATM or SSRM because you dont have to aim so good when you are moving very fast.
Many people use SRM, I dont like that because they have very short range and if you are close you can die faster, so I often take ER lasers rather then stronger laser but shorter.

Radar deprivation is something you must have if you dont have ECM I think. Seismic sensor is great to see where enemy is, you can stop and get speed faster than big mech. Bombs are great because you can fast move around map and get nice view for enemy team. Jump jets are great you can get everywhere.

And DONT! STOP! MOVING!

Edited by torsie, 09 March 2024 - 08:57 AM.

[GreyNovember]

MarcinT1981, on 09 March 2024 - 12:36 AM, said:

No offense, but Black Lanner is a very strong mech. Players completely underestimate him, just like Hellfire. What makes the difference is MASC. Many players only use it for faster speed and what really matters is a very large increase in accel/decel.
Try the variant with 6ERML and ECM, it is probably the easiest to play

I have tried this. I fail to see in any circumstance where this mech excels with it's peers in a manner that is actually useful.

MASC is moot when I have to hold a burn duration at any appreciable range. If I'm using it in this capacity, I should just take a Shadowcat with 2 CERPPC.

Up close, I cannot use it to actually do Locust shenanigans where I can out-circle someone and get into their rear arc. An Arctic Cheetah has the same ECM Capability with 6E and probably cools at the same general rate, while being smaller and more agile without relying on shakey-crosshair-equipment.

The Black Lanner feels like whoever designed it had the budget of god, and had to spend it, but was told to make a single "Light Mech". So they ended up with an even bigger Cicada, except it doesn't even have the good sense to put weapons where they can't easily be picked off.

[GreyNovember]

TravelingMaster, on 08 March 2024 - 10:34 PM, said:

Then I started using a Viper, and loved the combination of speed and jumping combined with close-range combat. I then tried out the Mist Lynx, which is much smaller while playing similarly, and that's basically my main QP mech now, and I haven't played anything other than lights/fast mediums for a while now because I can't stand the slow, sluggish speed of bigger mechs now.

The Lynx I can at least understand in that you can go unseen if you take the correct pods, and using Jets to reposition.

But I don't see how you are making use of the Viper so effectively in a close range manner, while also using it's jets. Every time an opponent initiates a full burn jump, all this does is make them a predictable target that cannot change direction midflight.

Unless the bunny hopping phenomenon of old is still in effect, causing your hitboxes to become wonky. But in this case, you'd only need the 1 JJ to cause it.

[Alexander of Macedon]

Sneaky Snek, on 08 March 2024 - 05:02 PM, said:

Take radar deprivation nodes and keep an eye out for the beep/cockpit flash to alert you that someone just lost a lock on you. It's a really handy early alarm that you got spotted on approach and should probably pull back and come from a different angle.

Other than that, it mostly comes down to learning the maps and figuring out which flanks are typically the safest.
You're a light mech, you fight on your own terms, not the enemies.

FPBP. This and pattonesque's post nailed it.

You have the ability to choose when and where to engage. Your job as a light pilot is to accumulate sufficient prior experience to accurately assess when you can engage with net benefit to yourself and your team, and when you should relocate and try something else.

Dying in a light has three possible reasons:

1. You were standing still and someone shot you.

2. You tried to force a bad engagement/didn't realize that it was a bad engagement.

3. It's the end of the match and you don't have any armor left.

[torsie]

I have actually have black lanner and I like it very much. It has ECM and MASC, you can sneak everywhere and MASC is good for turning and running away, not only for moving fast.

I have ATMs and I think Heavy medium lasers. It has bonuses to missiles and laser duration. I was thinking about using longer lasers, but ATM works better in closer distance.
Only problem is getting closer, I have to be careful, but after getting close I only hold down my button to shoot and run around. With MASC you can turn, slow and speed better than light mechs.
Its probably my only small mech that does 500+- damage every map without problems.

I also had Black Lanner with 7 ER Medium Lasers. Dont ask what happened to her.

[pattonesque]

GreyNovember, on 09 March 2024 - 10:33 AM, said:

I have tried this. I fail to see in any circumstance where this mech excels with it's peers in a manner that is actually useful.

MASC is moot when I have to hold a burn duration at any appreciable range. If I'm using it in this capacity, I should just take a Shadowcat with 2 CERPPC.

Up close, I cannot use it to actually do Locust shenanigans where I can out-circle someone and get into their rear arc. An Arctic Cheetah has the same ECM Capability with 6E and probably cools at the same general rate, while being smaller and more agile without relying on shakey-crosshair-equipment.

The Black Lanner feels like whoever designed it had the budget of god, and had to spend it, but was told to make a single "Light Mech". So they ended up with an even bigger Cicada, except it doesn't even have the good sense to put weapons where they can't easily be picked off.

a red laser Blanner is a great bully mech. you can't quite play it like a locust getting into someone's rear arc reliably but it's incredible at the following:

1. Turning a 1-on-1 into a 2-on-1 by rushing over to help someone
2. Filling a "light hunter" role while still being able to contribute in the fight as a whole
3. Getting off angles in short-range engagements
4. Finishing off a wounded mech which has retreated to cover
5. Eating LRM boats and (some) snipers alive

A red laser light mech can do a lot of these things but the Blanner can combine said light mech's ability to choose its own engagements with way more survivability should its pilot make the wrong decision. Even without ECM, something like this can accomplish that role very well.

[lastchanceforaslowdance]

imo you should be fighting around your firing line in most instances, whether that's trying to pressure with NARROW flanking on your right or doubling back to protect the left, or simply adding your firepower to the main line. Wide flanking is high risk reward and dependent on factors that are sometimes outside of your control and could yield less consistent results.

Don't always be afraid of skirmishing from a forward position from your team, cover willing. Snubs and pulse lasers are best for this (ML/ERML have extremely dangerous burn times, you better be sure nobody has a bead on you when you burn). You are nimble in most lights, use this to bait shots. Pay attention to when the enemies have fired for moments of opportunity

[LordNothing]

its not like ecm means instant win. it helps but not as much as people think it does. its less valuable in higher tiers when everyone is on direct fire. in many cases its the ecm that tipped me off that a light was in my vicinity. its saved my assault back armor more times than i can count. a mech without ecm can walk up right behind a mech that isnt watching his sensors (or didnt install seismo), hang out there until the mech is distracted and then fire. thats a hell of a lot more sneaky than what a stealth bug can do.

[Dr Wubs]

1) When you die, look at the clock. If you're dying early in the match, you're playing too aggressive and your positioning is poor.

2) Move constantly unless you are in a position where you are 100% safe. Even when you're shooting people, keep moving.

3) Choose a role. Scouting is a bad place to start piloting lights because you're going out alone. Don't. Play bodyguard. Play anti-light patrol.

4) Carry UAVs. The Help button gets ignored. If you see enemies within UAV range, then putting up a UAV is going to help draw your teams attention. Ignore anyone who says consumables are too expensive.

5) Be patient. The number of people who do stupid things because the match begins with the two teams maneuver instead of charging into each other is high. Some people will go on suicide missions because the fight isn't happening fast enough. Don't be those people.

6) Know how to take cover. Lights have the most cover in the game because they can hide behind small things. Stay hidden so randos don''t just take a potshot at you.

7) Press R to get the silhouette of the enemy mech and see where they're damaged. Don't just shoot at any ol' spot on a mech. Know where people are weak and where you can blow off weapons and neuter people.

8) Your legs are fragile, and it's easy for you to shoot other people's legs. Sometimes people won't notice you down their chewing their leg off until it's too late. Sometimes none of a mechs weapons can target you while you are destroying their ankles.