40 replies to this topic

[Wraith 1]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 13 March 2024 - 06:16 PM, said:

Too bad it's getting changes alongside the patch to ruin anyone's plans for that.

Sad, but for the best. There's going to be enough rage about tiny gauss as is, and I guess there's still the PIR if I really want a dumb glass cannon.

[Ttly]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 13 March 2024 - 06:16 PM, said:

Too bad it's getting changes alongside the patch to ruin anyone's plans for that.

Okay? What are said changes? Again, not everyone's on the Discord after all.

[Curccu]

Ttly, on 14 March 2024 - 12:59 AM, said:

Okay? What are said changes? Again, not everyone's on the Discord after all.

Patch notes, when patch is coming out... for those not interested in Discord.
Or some friendly soul will do leaks.

[w0qj]

Looking forward to Patch details for the new weapons!

Feel like a kid about to open presents on Christmas morning!

Thank you MWO!

[Novakaine]

Oh great Thunder-snail missiles.
Won't need AMS for those just a blind man holding a flyswatter.
Everything else looks good btw.

[Meep Meep]

Only weapon that looks interesting to me is the plasma cannon. Basically IS lppc with heat effect. If it works out I think the next 'heat' weapon should be flamer lrm ammo.

[kalashnikity]

Curccu, on 14 March 2024 - 01:48 AM, said:

Patch notes, when patch is coming out... for those not interested in Discord.
Or some friendly soul will do leaks.

or you could just answer the question?

What changes to my favorite flea?

[Curccu]

kalashnikity, on 14 March 2024 - 07:31 AM, said:

or you could just answer the question?

I cannot because I do not know the answer.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Meep Meep, on 14 March 2024 - 06:32 AM, said:

Only weapon that looks interesting to me is the plasma cannon. Basically IS lppc with heat effect. If it works out I think the next 'heat' weapon should be flamer lrm ammo.

The heat was only because a few people in the Cauldron thought it should have it for flavor given how it works in lore, however don't expect other weapons to be added with this behavior, especially since it is possible that it ends up getting removed just because of the wacky behavior of the heat damage effect.

There is one thing that is pretty much reviled by the Cauldron is stunlock mechanics, and flamers and heat damage typically fall into that category, that's why this heat damage is so small.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 14 March 2024 - 08:33 AM.

[Duke Falcon]

Novakaine, on 14 March 2024 - 05:52 AM, said:

Oh great Thunder-snail missiles.
Won't need AMS for those just a blind man holding a flyswatter.
Everything else looks good btw.

Since it seems lock-on weapons it were no secret Thunderbolts would be terrible. General lock-on hate stuff... If they hate lock-on stuffs so much then unlock Streaks! Let us dumbfire those like any other missiles!

Meep Meep, on 14 March 2024 - 06:32 AM, said:

Only weapon that looks interesting to me is the plasma cannon. Basically IS lppc with heat effect. If it works out I think the next 'heat' weapon should be flamer lrm ammo.

I see some plasma-boats with my eyes! Mixed with ER-PPCs!
Flamer lrm? Inferno srm! Let the galaxy burn, dammit!

Quicksilver Aberration, on 14 March 2024 - 08:32 AM, said:

The heat was only because a few people in the Cauldron thought it should have it for flavor given how it works in lore, however don't expect other weapons to be added with this behavior, especially since it is possible that it ends up getting removed just because of the wacky behavior of the heat damage effect.

There is one thing that is pretty much reviled by the Cauldron is stunlock mechanics, and flamers and heat damage typically fall into that category, that's why this heat damage is so small.

Most probably yes, the heat damage would be either removed or nerfed some ways. Still, it grants some flavour even if the whole weapon system implemented badly... I know, no-TT MWO is just try sometimes looks like loosely connected to that "franchise"...


...

I wonder protoACs could be viable for substitute HMGs... My Arctic cheetah would tell but on longer term the HMGs still seems more viable for me. Dunno...

[1453 R]

I really wish we had better heat weapon mechanics. Flamers should have fired in a short, intense stream with a long cooldown, and limiting the amount of externally imposed heat a 'Mech can take at once would've both allowed heat weapons to be viable by automatically controlling mass-boating stunlock builds AND been consistent with TTBT rules. Alas, no engineering resources anymore, and people kvetch about anything that requires more brainpower to employ than Point + Click as it is. Proper timing and deployment of heat weapons is beyond the mental capacity of most of the playerbase, so a distinct lack of plasma, Inferno, or proper flamers it is.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Duke Falcon, on 14 March 2024 - 10:17 AM, said:

I wonder protoACs could be viable for substitute HMGs... My Arctic cheetah would tell but on longer term the HMGs still seems more viable for me. Dunno...

They have more range but are a lot heavier. The PAC/2 and the cHMG have roughly the same damage per second, but at 3.5 tons instead of 0.5 tons... the trade being 600m optimal for the PAC/2 instead of 120m for the cHMG. The PAC/4 and PAC/8 are more efficient in tonnage and damage per second, but the cooldown goes up, so you're looking at matching them with medium pulse lasers.

They'll play quite differently from machine guns. What it will do, though, is improve the DPS of mechs with just 1 or 2 ballistic hardpoints.

For example, I want to try the Gorewing with PAC/4's and Plasma Cannons.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

1453 R, on 14 March 2024 - 10:36 AM, said:

I really wish we had better heat weapon mechanics. Flamers should have fired in a short, intense stream with a long cooldown, and limiting the amount of externally imposed heat a 'Mech can take at once would've both allowed heat weapons to be viable by automatically controlling mass-boating stunlock builds AND been consistent with TTBT rules. Alas, no engineering resources anymore, and people kvetch about anything that requires more brainpower to employ than Point + Click as it is. Proper timing and deployment of heat weapons is beyond the mental capacity of most of the playerbase, so a distinct lack of plasma, Inferno, or proper flamers it is.

Heat weapons are problematic just in general for similar reasons to why energy denial and skill cooldown things were awful back in Guild Wars, things that actively prevent you from doing anything for lengthy periods of time are just bad mechanics in general even if they require "good timing". Flashbangs are probably the only acceptable form of stunlock in a game and that is because it can be avoided but is also limited in frequency and duration.

That said, if we had engineering available, there is definitely space for plasma weapons something would just have to change. Yeonne years ago suggested PPCs be charge-up short duration (like 0.25s) lasers similar to the Spartan Laser from Halo, which would allow plasma weapons to fill that PPFLD+splash projectile role. Flamers being converted into something similar to plasma weapons (think AP gauss, but for plasma) could've been a thing as well.

[1453 R]

Having seen the numbers and discussed them heavily in my circle, I'm honestly wondering if the PMAC/8 isn't going to be the second coming of Dakkageddon, after the Clans dropped and people started realizing how much autocannon they could fit on some OmniMechs. 55% of the weight for 80% of the damage of a cAC/10 is pretty damn good, and the relatively low range and refire aren't crippling issues. The 3xAC/20 Dire Whales could easily become 2xAC/20, 4xPMAC/8 Dire Whales and probably come out sittin' pretty in terms of overall Kerblammo value. To say nothing of PMACs allowing Dakkageddon builds on 'Mechs previously too small to be able to manage it, or allowing some of the 'Mechs typically considered too over-engine'd to carry worthwhile ballistics to suddenly do so. Linebackers with autocannons, anybody? 2xPMAC/8,2xPMAC/4 Hunch IICs being three quarters of the boom power of a Dakkageddon Muck-Tew in half the 'Mech?. Double PMAC/8 (or triple PMAC/4) Hashke giving people fresh reasons to Suffer Not the UrbanMech to Live? Heck, the Huntsman might even come back into vogue; that critter's problem was always "you can have weapons or heat sinks, not both", but PMACs might let it have a Dakkageddon weapons load that doesn't mind the space limitations that tend to prevent adequate heat sinking on Huntsman builds.

Man. It's gonna be fun next week. I'm already planning a Beam Laser/5x APG INC-2 that's gonna make people upset in their pantsal regions (or fail spectacularly, of course), the SHC-P with a PMAC/8 and six APG liberally supplied with ghost ammo is gonna be a pretty fantastic hunter-killer/anti-light critter, Black Lanners with APG are gonna be nuts, and my brother cannot wait to put a Silver Bullet on his Gridiron and make people hate. Mmm. Good times ahead.

[ScrapIron Prime]

1453 R, on 14 March 2024 - 11:42 AM, said:

Man. It's gonna be fun next week. I'm already planning a Beam Laser/5x APG INC-2 that's gonna make people upset in their pantsal regions (or fail spectacularly, of course), the SHC-P with a PMAC/8 and six APG liberally supplied with ghost ammo is gonna be a pretty fantastic hunter-killer/anti-light critter, Black Lanners with APG are gonna be nuts, and my brother cannot wait to put a Silver Bullet on his Gridiron and make people hate. Mmm. Good times ahead.

I think the first mech I'm testing is a Cicada 3C with a Heavy PPC and 4 Magshots. Their velocity matches nicely.

[1453 R]

ScrapIron Prime, on 14 March 2024 - 12:05 PM, said:

I think the first mech I'm testing is a Cicada 3C with a Heavy PPC and 4 Magshots. Their velocity matches nicely.

Oooh, that's a slick idea too. Midrange pop with the HPeep, Magshots to duel other fast movers and thicken up the DPS at close range. I like that, might be futzing with it myself.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

You're probably better off with a snub over the HPPC. Affords you more speed to force engagements at ranges where you can utilize the magshots.

[1453 R]

You can do the HPeep w/4xMS and three tons of MS ammo on a 300XL for 121kph pre-Tweak. Frankly I'm not sure the extra 12~15KPH you gain from the switch to a snub is worth the loss of poke capacity, especially when the HPeep lets you smack 23 total damage right where you want it while the snubbie's gonna splash. Any fight you can't dictate at ~130kph isn't gonna really be much more dictateable at ~145kph, and I say that as a huge proponent of mobility and a firm believer that Ultracomps (and this game in general) really don't value movement and mobility as much as they should.

The reason to use the snubby is to avoid the HPeep's deadzone range (and get technically better DPS), but given the 'Mech's speed I honestly don't see that being a huge issue in most cases. Heh, plus, let's face it. Hpeeps are just satisfying in a way snubs are not. Big thundering particle boomsticks they are.

[ScrapIron Prime]

That was my thinking as well. The heavy peep gives you the option of contributing to a 600m firefight on your way into magshot range, and the relaxed minimum isn't that great an issue for a mech moving at 115.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

1453 R, on 14 March 2024 - 01:09 PM, said:

You can do the HPeep w/4xMS and three tons of MS ammo on a 300XL for 121kph pre-Tweak. Frankly I'm not sure the extra 12~15KPH you gain from the switch to a snub is worth the loss of poke capacity, especially when the HPeep lets you smack 23 total damage right where you want it while the snubbie's gonna splash. Any fight you can't dictate at ~130kph isn't gonna really be much more dictateable at ~145kph, and I say that as a huge proponent of mobility and a firm believer that Ultracomps (and this game in general) really don't value movement and mobility as much as they should.

The reason to use the snubby is to avoid the HPeep's deadzone range (and get technically better DPS), but given the 'Mech's speed I honestly don't see that being a huge issue in most cases. Heh, plus, let's face it. Hpeeps are just satisfying in a way snubs are not. Big thundering particle boomsticks they are.

~19 kph (you want speed tweak so this includes that) definitely changes the engagements against lights that you can run away from. That's the difference from being catchable by a Viper and outrunning it. You can run a 340 XL easily with snub + 4 magshots.

Poking using the HPPC is also pretty much a losing affair, you can go 5 tons higher and have mechs much more capable of poking at that range and their damage per poke being better is worth the slight drop in speed (though a certain Pixie can have MASC).

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 14 March 2024 - 01:47 PM.