57 replies to this topic

[martian]

ambosen, on 21 March 2024 - 11:29 AM, said:

We'd have to see one occur first.

No problem. Check these screenshots.

1. Note the reward notification announcing the enemy 'Mech kill. Also note that TAG kill reward showing that the kill was made with the TAG assistance.

2. Note the wireframe in the upper right corner showing the freshly gutted enemy Piranha.

3. Note the weapon status display showing cold lasers and a reloading pair of TB10 Thunderbolt Missile launchers.




The game was not bad and I think I contributed to my team's victory. I played cautiously because I did not quite know what to expect from Thunderbolt Missiles.



I added some secondary activities and earned acceptable payout and Experience.



This is my BattleMech that I used.



Thunderbolt MIssiles work for me, even though they are not OP weapons (as I mentioned above).

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MrTBSC, on 21 March 2024 - 01:19 PM, said:

basically any combination that helps besides just hitting the enemy with stuff because that´s just too obvious (what do you mean with "threatening space"?), yes that includes locks, that includes scouting, countering ECM bubbles and stealth with narc, TAG and active probe (the latter if close enough besides just spotting shutdown mechs).
this game offers very little incentive to include the gear for actual teamplay matchscorewise (even if you run a team/unit). i do think there is space for creating a build capable to both offer reconnaissance while still allowing it for skirmish or playing a flanker. of course you will be outgunned against a damagefocused build but the point is to involve most of the team with the scoutingiformation given while staying out of harm (or do hit and runs) .. afterall the enemy can´t shoot/hit you when you aren´t there but him still eating dmg

i dont´know if there have been any changes to narc and TAG but i find they definitively should reveal any mech that uses ECM/stealth or any mech within a ECM bubble ... otherwise they should be buffed .... and yea it would be VERY nice if the scoresystem would provide an appropriate reward for that on a regular basis ... but i suppose we can´t expect that any time soon ... or ever ...

I couldn't find any really good explanations of zoning/spacing as it applies to FPS, but it applies to any "tactical" FPS as much as it does fighting games given there is some element of rock/paper/scissors happening.

Flanking and scouting are a plenty....if you play competitively because it just matters way more where there are fewer eyes on the board. The more players the less valuable scouting honestly is, and the less coordinated a team is, the less valuable that info is just because no one can really exploit that info (which again is why it is useful in comp). Radar pings are useful in uncoordinated environments, but there are just so many things stacked against radar sharing in that environment whether it be due to radar being only LoS with limited range or due to ECM/Stealth completely nullifying it that its no shock that its not that useful. It's just better to just brute force your way through matches because of just the sheer amount of armor you need to bleed through and the lack of coordination that can check players getting away with things that they really shouldn't

You don't need gear/equipment to make the game about team play, pacing can do that work for you. Slow rotations/movement and/or long TTK can make all the difference in that regard. It's honestly funny when people talk about this game like team play isn't a thing when all a lot of people have done is just solo queue. If you expect solo queue to ever be that sort of environment then you've clearly never learned anything from practically any other multiplayer game.

All kits that "encourage" team play typically end up coupling you to other kits which means if no one has them, you are left in the dust. Most situations, those kind of specific/gimmicky utility ends up being garbage because of that dependency makes it really hard to work around and those isn't about "encouraging" team play but making you solely dependent on it. Just ask Overwatch how well that's worked out for them.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 21 March 2024 - 02:20 PM.

[Pixel Hunter]

ambosen, on 21 March 2024 - 11:38 AM, said:

A large part of it I think is that there's a very tiny but extremely vocal portion of this community that wants to permanently remove any indirect fire mechanic whatsoever from the game.

They've basically been browbeating the devs to do it since the very first private beta which was long before a lot of the people here ever joined the forum by the way.

This ignores that due a combination of map design factors (the widespread invisible walls how many areas of the map become straight up impassable without some sort of suppressing fire mechanic to let other elements of a team of mechs move ect, for example) any weapon using the indirect fire capability needs a sadly, fairly steep in comparison to many games parabolic trajectory.The constant efforts to reduce or entirely flatten the trajectory would be a virtual non issue, if they weren't trying to essentially redesign maps according to FPS arena shooter mechanics in a lot of ways.

Basically some users want to turn all missile weapons into direct fire weapons like the bulk of other weapons in the game. Even though it doesn't really work, on a functional level.

I can see the thunderbolt trade off being a "direct fire only" (and I agree, they are too powerful for indirect) but they have to throw a little bit of a bone here. Wide open on the test map missiles are behaving not as they should, even with a direct line of sight. They need just to have almost no arc and shoot in a straight line like SRM's or MRM's but still track if LOS is broken for some unknown reason. I suspect something is causing the game engine to think something is in the way, or for that matter they coded the miss chance too high on accident. maybe a .025 became a .25 or something.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Pixel Hunter, on 21 March 2024 - 04:08 PM, said:

I can see the thunderbolt trade off being a "direct fire only" (and I agree, they are too powerful for indirect) but they have to throw a little bit of a bone here. Wide open on the test map missiles are behaving not as they should, even with a direct line of sight. They need just to have almost no arc and shoot in a straight line like SRM's or MRM's but still track if LOS is broken for some unknown reason. I suspect something is causing the game engine to think something is in the way, or for that matter they coded the miss chance too high on accident. maybe a .025 became a .25 or something.

If indirect is the issue, why not make them target like streaks and up the velocity. It’s not like they’d be out damaging streaks for the tons you’re paying, they just have over twice the range.

[LordNothing]

im finding them useful as a supplemental weapon system, rather than a primary. put a single tbt10 in an uziel with a couple lac5s and 3 ermls. i got 2 kills with the missiles.

[Tywren]

I side with the group that says make it one missile. Give it the tracking pattern of an ATM and higher than normal HP so that it takes concentrated fire from multiple AMS to knock down. The potential of this weapon breaking balance could be mitigated by giving it an extremely long cooldown between shots, say 10 seconds.

But as the TBM sits now, the OP is right, MRMs out preform them. In test grounds LRM15 x 2 killed 2 damaged a 3ed. TB10 x 2 killed 3 and damaged a 4th. MRM 20 x 2 just barely managed to get a full 5 kills before running out of ammo.

The tests were all conducted on the same map (Mining Collective), against the same targets (Cataphract, Centurion, Awesome, Atlas, Jenner, in that order), at the same range (200m), with all shots going to front armor. I even tried to match firing position, and angle of attack as closely as possible.

[TELEFORCE]

I think the Thunderbolt missiles can use more hitpoints so they aren't so easily gunned down by AMS. They also need to be single missiles, like a slower single-shot autocannon - cluster missiles already exist

[MrTBSC]

LordNothing, on 21 March 2024 - 05:04 PM, said:

im finding them useful as a supplemental weapon system, rather than a primary. put a single tbt10 in an uziel with a couple lac5s and 3 ermls. i got 2 kills with the missiles.

have to agree, they do feel quite well as additional damage to whatever your main firepower build is .. be it ballistic or energy ... just add a single TBM 10 or TBM15 or 2 TBM 5

they don´t spray as much as LRMs and MRMs, you still have plenty of range to work with unlike with streaks and the damage is more focused around the torso area ...

Edited by MrTBSC, 22 March 2024 - 06:36 PM.

[Slambot]

Thunderbolts... I cant figure their role. They are shorter range, heavier lrms. They are slower and more vulnerable to ams, and have, correct me if im wrong, less damage per ton of ammo. They do save on crit space but, I can think of no instance where they are better, or even as good as the other missile types.

To make them worthwhile, given that Piranha never changes actual weapon weights and size from lore, the devs would have to drastically increase their performance specs to even bring them up to par with the other 4 missile forms. (5 if you include rockets, which i dont)

[MrTBSC]

Slambot, on 22 March 2024 - 06:48 PM, said:

Thunderbolts... I cant figure their role. They are shorter range, heavier lrms. They are slower and more vulnerable to ams, and have, correct me if im wrong, less damage per ton of ammo. They do save on crit space but, I can think of no instance where they are better, or even as good as the other missile types.

To make them worthwhile, given that Piranha never changes actual weapon weights and size from lore, the devs would have to drastically increase their performance specs to even bring them up to par with the other 4 missile forms. (5 if you include rockets, which i dont)

to me personally they feel like dealing more focused dmg compared to any of other launchers, sure MRMs and SRMs may deal more dmg per tonnage but it goes all over your target .. obviously TBM5 is the most focused and may hit the CT or ST more consistently (it matters where you stand in relation to your target) TBM 10 and 15 imo are still ok ... TBM 20 imo is more the problemchild because it ads 3 tons more compared to using 4 TBM 5s ...

funny enough bout MRMs ... a MRM 40 is equal in tonnage to 4 MRM 10 where the MRM 20 and 30 require 1 additional tonnage but each requries one less slot ..

with standard LRMs the larger batteries take one ton more and stay the same in critslots except the LRM 20 where it also requires an additional slot compared to using 4 LRM 5 .. artemis LRMs however i feel incentivizes using the larger batteries

now TBM tonnage and slot requirement are kinda similar with LRMs
but as said the TBM 20 is such a big outlier that to me it would not matter that much if it was a single projectile
or a swarm of 4 missiles because of how much tonnage it takes up .. i still would not be sure that i take it ..
sure it has guidance and range over other 20 dmg caliber weapons like AC 20 and UAC 20
but those come with less cooldown ... AC 20 at least takes one ton less despite taking more slots,
UACs are equally heavy but have double damage potential ...
i would even take LBX 20 over them if it wouldn´t be impossible to include them to non LE engine IS mechs ..



as for their role? i really think they are good for supplementing your build with having 1 or 2 missilehardpoints

considering the roles of the other missiles
LRM = artillery/indirect fire
MRM = full on splash damage saturation
SRMs = either ungabunga (especialy with an LBX 10 or 20) or hit and run
streaks = anti light mech weapon

TBMs as they are now i feel are like ... simple to use near guaranteed midrange damagedealer

Edited by MrTBSC, 22 March 2024 - 08:29 PM.

[SolCrusher]

Do Targeting computers affect speed of the missiles?

I equipped a TC and didn't see the speed up for PPC or Missiles, so I'm guessing the interface doesn't show that buff like it does for the quirks?

[SolCrusher]

Well, I don't know if they are totally worthless. I climbed out of T4 to T3 and had some really good matches.

stk-5m

Had a 1000 dmg match.
Had several in the 500 to 800 dmg range.
Had several light mech kills. It's almost like they are built to kill anything that doesn't have ECM.
Killed off light mechs that thought oh let me jump this guy running only 5 TBM10s.
Killed off light mechs that thought they were safe about 600 meters away.
Obvious maps where LRMs suck, so did TBMs, so that was expected.
Killed off a Streak Kitaro, one on one when he decided to mound pound me.
Made every mech that shutdown in my line of site pay for that mistake. Dumb firing using Tag to range them.

They do need more velocity, that's why I'm wondering if the Targeting computer affects missile speed.

I used 2 TAG, 1 Beagle, 1 Command Console and 5 TBM10s on my Stalker 5M.

They seemed to hurt plenty, make people cover, made me dangerous enough that lights wouldn't swarm me, and could put in work. Seemed to get better as the night progressed, but that could be the beers.

They do seem to have the LRM problem of old of seeking legs, but I only noticed that on lights really.

[VeeOt Dragon]

i haven't messed around with them yet but just looking at the raw stats i don't feel a good use for them. honestly if i want to use a locking weapon for strictly mid range use i will just equip Artemis on my LRMs and go with that instead. less tonnage more ammo and the option to use in IDF if i want. (from what i understand TBMs are like ATMs in that they only have the one relatively low arc)

i might try them out a little tomorrow but i don't see them ever replacing MRMs or LRMs in any of my current builds.

[martian]

SolCrusher, on 22 March 2024 - 09:23 PM, said:

Do Targeting computers affect speed of the missiles?

I equipped a TC and didn't see the speed up for PPC or Missiles, so I'm guessing the interface doesn't show that buff like it does for the quirks?

Targeting Computers do not affect speed of the missiles.

[MrTBSC]

SolCrusher, on 22 March 2024 - 09:23 PM, said:

Do Targeting computers affect speed of the missiles?

I equipped a TC and didn't see the speed up for PPC or Missiles, so I'm guessing the interface doesn't show that buff like it does for the quirks?

targeting computers affect energyweapons and most ballistics except LBX, gauss and i think machineguns

they do not affect missiles at all

to my knowledge any kind of velocity buff (or rangebuff on lasers) would be shown on a weapon cause it either is through a quirk or skillnode .. i don´t think it´s shown with targeting computers equiped

Edited by MrTBSC, 23 March 2024 - 04:57 AM.

[Meep Meep]

Just an observation but tb5/10 seem to go right for the ct whereas the larger launchers will randomly target a couple of components. A cat c4 with 4 tb10 can be very lethal.

[Pixel Hunter]

ScrapIron Prime, on 21 March 2024 - 04:24 PM, said:

If indirect is the issue, why not make them target like streaks and up the velocity. It’s not like they’d be out damaging streaks for the tons you’re paying, they just have over twice the range.

yeah. hopefully that's what the "buff" does. make them act like heavy streak launcher, problem solved.

[Mister Smile]

Meep Meep, on 24 March 2024 - 03:38 PM, said:

Just an observation but tb5/10 seem to go right for the ct whereas the larger launchers will randomly target a couple of components. A cat c4 with 4 tb10 can be very lethal.

Yupp, even when they hit you from the side, they jit the ct...