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Lrm Idea


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#21 Kareekoe

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Posted 22 March 2024 - 11:30 PM

View PostDarkBazerker, on 22 March 2024 - 12:01 PM, said:

You completely missed the point. I'm guessing your not used to thinking outside the box. In any regard, the big problem is shared lock on due to lrm being the only weapon where your team can do your work for you, apart from pulling the trigger. But please by all means tell me its fine and balanced.

LRMs are fine and balanced.

Actually no, LRMs are underbalanced.

LRMs have been nerfed through the ground over the countless years of this game's existence.

If anything they need a buff in the way they make a flight path to an enemy that doesn't cause them to needlessly smash into cover or a wall or some obstacle on the way and that doesn't fail to make use of their maximum flight distance to properly hit the enemy.

Karee made a post about this about it not very long ago and she's standing by her assessment.

You have 6 hard counters to LRMs, use at least one or more of them if you are having difficulty dealing with LRM boats.

Incase you want to know what those hard counters are:

1. Hiding behind or under cover, missiles hit cover, you take little to no damage depending on the quality/goodness of cover.

2. Charging the LRM Boat and blasting them by shooting them in the back or running at them with really anything that has decent close range firepower of literally anything as low as 1 Small X-Pulse Laser and a beyond easily achievable dream, if they're IS LRM they literally can't do anything, they'll shoot missiles at you and they'll just bounce off like non-explosive duds, and if they're clan LRM they'll do tickle damage point blank and have a really hard time actually hitting the target.

3. Using Stealth mode, makes you literally untargetable.

4. Using AMS, can destroy all missiles of an entire volley if there's enough AMS, ranges from some damage prevention to complete missile immunity if there's at least 4-5 ams covering an area.

5. Using ECM disrupt mode, enemies need to come closer in order to target you but also so that the LRM target locks are slower.

6. Playing any small team event game mode that's between 1v1 up to 4v4, LRM boats mega suck there and very often cause teams to lose.

If you actually are playing with LRMs then you should already know that direct LOS has faster lock-on times, so there's already a strong reason/reward to play in LOS whenever possible or reasonable, but you should also know that LOS is not always possible nor reasonable with LRM boats, sometimes you're armor is stripped and gone, do you LOS then? no. you'd probably die. but if you still have CT/RT/LT armor regardless of how much, then it's more than reasonable to play LOS until it becomes unreasonable, then you switch to targeting what the teammates have targeted and do LOS sparingly when you know it's probably safe to do so without dying, literally nothing is stopping you from playing LOS, so if you actually are playing LRM, then why are you not also playing with LOS tactics?

But anyways, enough of these games, Karee is now going to reply to what this post and your replies to others actually appear to be about.

Just Press R, we don't care if it's somehow hard to do, people will like you more as a teammate and you will have better games if you simply Press R.

Pressing R and holding a target locking is not just for LRM boats, but also for providing valuable information to the other non-LRM players on the team in the form of knowing where the enemy players are on their minimaps so that everyone can more effectively plan out a personal attack or teamwork attack.

enemy Positional intel is veRy important information for Everyone to make uSe of, it's eSpecially why a well placed UAV is so invaluable, but the pRoblem with UAV's are that they can easily be destroyed.

Pressing R is effectively a single target UAV that can't be destroyed by enemy fire, so it's always best to make use of it whenever possible.

This message has been brought to you by the Press R gang.

Press R.

R.

Edited by Kareekoe, 22 March 2024 - 11:49 PM.


#22 ScrapIron Prime

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Posted 23 March 2024 - 07:08 AM

View PostKareekoe, on 22 March 2024 - 11:30 PM, said:

Just Press R, we don't care if it's somehow hard to do, people will like you more as a teammate and you will have better games if you simply Press R.

Pressing R and holding a target locking is not just for LRM boats, but also for providing valuable information to the other non-LRM players on the team in the form of knowing where the enemy players are on their minimaps so that everyone can more effectively plan out a personal attack or teamwork attack.

enemy Positional intel is veRy important information for Everyone to make uSe of, it's eSpecially why a well placed UAV is so invaluable, but the pRoblem with UAV's are that they can easily be destroyed.

Pressing R is effectively a single target UAV that can't be destroyed by enemy fire, so it's always best to make use of it whenever possible.

This message has been brought to you by the Press R gang.

Press R.

R.


THIS is why I max out Radar Derp on every mech... not to dodge lock on weapons, because that's easy. No, I max out Radar Derp so that my red dorito disappears from the other team's minimap as quickly as possible. The less they know about where I am and where I'm going, the less they can plan for it and shorten my mech's lifespan.

Every little bit of information warfare helps.

#23 East Indy

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Posted 23 March 2024 - 08:11 AM

View PostDarkBazerker, on 19 March 2024 - 08:37 PM, said:

Would really like to see LRM and every other lock on weapon be line of sight and remove friendly lockon, apart from tag, narc, and uav.

For the most part, bingo.

LRMs are balanced around missile boats crouching behind a hill, farming while they spoil somebody's match.

I.e., Cauldron hated it as much as everyone else, and a little extra, and obliterated them.

Which is fine, but if anybody ever wants the system back in the game -- make them LOS weapons and relax targeting radius, then adjust to keep them support-level.

Information warfare and unreciprocated fire are great in a real war, but MWO is like water guns for grown men. People want to have fun.

#24 Azab

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Posted 23 March 2024 - 10:35 AM

Just mind that some folks would like to have fun with LRMs, too.

#25 DarkBazerker

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Posted 02 April 2024 - 09:33 PM

View PostKareekoe, on 22 March 2024 - 11:30 PM, said:

If anything they need a buff in the way they make a flight path to an enemy that doesn't cause them to needlessly smash into cover or a wall or some obstacle on the way and that doesn't fail to make use of their maximum flight distance to properly hit the enemy.


Here's a tip: Move closer.

If you're hiding at almost max range your doing it wrong.

The rest of your post is bloat about how to use the lock on key for intel, with no regard with what the topic is, and to that I say, good day.

#26 Novakaine

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Posted 02 April 2024 - 10:00 PM

Must be a member of the Blue Flashlight Mob.

#27 MarcinT1981

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Posted 02 April 2024 - 11:40 PM

View PostNovakaine, on 02 April 2024 - 10:00 PM, said:

Must be a member of the Blue Flashlight Mob.


You can still read on this forum that snipers are afraid of LRM. I don't understand where this thinking comes from.
Posted Image
Snipers are afraid of light's mechs and other snipers.
What can such an LRM do to a sniper? After all, he is not standing in an open area, but close to an obstacle. When Betty starts screaming, take a few steps and the problem will be solved. Then he leaned out again, shot the alpha at the lrm boat and hide again. The LRM Boat is truly no problem for the sniper, then and now.

Edited by MarcinT1981, 02 April 2024 - 11:41 PM.


#28 ambosen

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Posted 03 April 2024 - 02:05 AM

Honestly, the best LRM counter I've found is just to play this game aggressively and intelligently. Then again that's a pretty good counter to everything, particularly if you can get your teammates to do the same.

#29 VeeOt Dragon

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Posted 03 April 2024 - 06:03 AM

you know i get sick and tired of the whole "LRM are no skill weapons must Nerf in this or that way" ********. for a moment lets compare weapons and skills (just what it takes to fire the weapon not general positioning things that go for everything).

Lasers/MGs-- 1 point at target, 2 push button

Ballistics/ non-locking Missiles--1 point at target (leading slightly at longer ranges if target is moving), 2 push button

Locking Weapons (LRM,ATM,TBM, S-SRM)--1 press R to get target box (either LoS or IDF with the help of teammates), 2 hold crosshair in exact center of target box (for quite an extended time if there is ECM) until target is fully locked, 3 push fire button, 4 continue to hold that target lock until the payload arrives.

this does not include all the counters to the weapon system. such as AMS or the fact that a snail could out maneuver them or duck behind cover at anything but min range. honestly IDF is the only thing LRM have going for them and to a leaser degree for ATMs and Thunderbolts. the former having a fixed lower firing arc and the latter's shorter range making IDF a little tougher. on top of all of this as a LoS only weapon they would be worse than even RACs and other "face time" weapons. so if you add everything i mentioned before that is required to fire the weapon and do all that while being completely exposed to return fire. oh and you can't twist or you will lose your lock.

if you are hiving trouble against LRM then thats a you problem. perhaps you should try using them and solo dropping a few matches then come back and tell me they are easy mode or need nerfed. yeah at low tiers they can be a pain until you figure out the counters. they are also more prevalent because new players are not only trying out various weapons and compos for themselves but also might feel that they are indeed easy mode. once a player learns how to deal with them they aren't a big deal. hell i rarely see more than one or two LRM boats per team in a match and i am a solid T3 player. now and again you get the 4 man dropping with 3 LRM boats and a spotter mech but thats an outlier.

#30 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 03 April 2024 - 08:36 AM

View PostVeeOt Dragon, on 03 April 2024 - 06:03 AM, said:

Lasers/MGs-- 1 point at target, 2 push button

Ballistics/ non-locking Missiles--1 point at target (leading slightly at longer ranges if target is moving), 2 push button

If this were true no one would spread damage and always hit CT or even better cockpits. Must be some awful players out there if they are messing this up Posted Image

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 03 April 2024 - 08:47 AM.


#31 Lincoln Cross

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Posted 03 April 2024 - 11:14 AM

ECM's are getting nerfed and Thunderbolts are getting buffed in the April patch according to the cauldron discord.

#32 ScrapIron Prime

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Posted 03 April 2024 - 12:53 PM

View PostLincoln Cross, on 03 April 2024 - 11:14 AM, said:

ECM's are getting nerfed and Thunderbolts are getting buffed in the April patch according to the cauldron discord.


I'm not holding my breath. Cauldron's focus has been to make sure that lock on weapons cannot compete with "higher skill" weapons. The adjustments should net to a minor improvement, but the tonnage tax of the Thunderbolts will still turn folks away from them.

#33 Alex Morgaine

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Posted 03 April 2024 - 01:09 PM

Double current speed with lock on. Flatten arc. People will still say they're worthless due to rocks and ams.
...
I'd like more velocity though.
Honestly constant lock maintained when fired so you can look away to spread damage would help somewhat. Still missiles feel best imo as a flanking/ distracted enemy type weapon or supplemental space if you aren't boating or running close brawl splat/ streak srms

View PostScrapIron Prime, on 03 April 2024 - 12:53 PM, said:

I'm not holding my breath. Cauldron's focus has been to make sure that lock on weapons cannot compete with "higher skill" weapons. The adjustments should net to a minor improvement, but the tonnage tax of the Thunderbolts will still turn folks away from them.


Actually I got a derpy but fun thunderbolt5x2/lppcx3 40 ton build that seems ok at Solo. Kinda hit and run so not a stand and fight style so not a brawler or sniper

#34 ScrapIron Prime

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Posted 03 April 2024 - 01:32 PM

View PostAlex Morgaine, on 03 April 2024 - 01:09 PM, said:

Actually I got a derpy but fun thunderbolt5x2/lppcx3 40 ton build that seems ok at Solo. Kinda hit and run so not a stand and fight style so not a brawler or sniper


I'm using a Kintaro in a similar fashion. Works okay because of the quirks, but still sub-optimal.

https://mwo.nav-alph...67c1f31a_KTO-GB

#35 Alex Morgaine

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Posted 03 April 2024 - 02:58 PM

View PostScrapIron Prime, on 03 April 2024 - 01:32 PM, said:

I'm using a Kintaro in a similar fashion. Works okay because of the quirks, but still sub-optimal.

https://mwo.nav-alph...67c1f31a_KTO-GB

Yeah that style but it kind of ends up in that " shooting like crazy omg everywhere bangbang" but 200 damage kind of feeling. Not bad just underwhelming for fun

#36 JediPanther

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Posted 03 April 2024 - 03:05 PM

View Postmartian, on 21 March 2024 - 10:36 AM, said:

LRMs have so many counters that it is not even funny.


I remember making the lrm counter count post thread few years back. 40 diffrent ways to counter lrm with "move to cover" being the easiest. As for making lrms only work like the poster wants I'm sure there's just tons of people wanting to give up five tons for the launcher and a ton for ammo plus wait every 7 seconds just to fire a single narcs and hope they didn't miss or ams shot it down before the hard counter even start before the lrm-er can even fire.

#37 martian

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Posted 03 April 2024 - 08:45 PM

View PostJediPanther, on 03 April 2024 - 03:05 PM, said:

I remember making the lrm counter count post thread few years back. 40 diffrent ways to counter lrm with "move to cover" being the easiest.

The current shape of game is that you can eat 40-, 50- or 60-point instant accurate ranged alpha from a 'Mech that you often barely see. LRMs are among the last of my worries.

View PostJediPanther, on 03 April 2024 - 03:05 PM, said:

As for making lrms only work like the poster wants I'm sure there's just tons of people wanting to give up five tons for the launcher and a ton for ammo plus wait every 7 seconds just to fire a single narcs and hope they didn't miss or ams shot it down before the hard counter even start before the lrm-er can even fire.

I suspect that being the usual case of "Plz nerf or ban the weapon that just killed me NOW!!"

#38 ambosen

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Posted 04 April 2024 - 05:58 AM

View PostLincoln Cross, on 03 April 2024 - 11:14 AM, said:

ECM's are getting nerfed and Thunderbolts are getting buffed in the April patch according to the cauldron discord.


Well, first ECM is already hard countered by about 5 different methods including active probes, other ECM units in counter ECM mode TAG lasers, the temporary ECM disruption effect of all PPC type weapons, and obviously damaging the enemy mech in such a way the mech portion carrying ECM unit is disabled or destroyed, and obviously, the fact that a lot of ECM users seem to think they're literally invisible to direct line of sight. Radar deprevation is a lot more of a problem, largely because that entire mechanic wasn't really all that well thought out to begin with. It essentially speeds up the rate of targeting loss when an enemy mech breaks line of sight long enough. More then that, there's a lot of maps now where ground clutter ect means it's very possible, particularly for small light mechs to in effect continually break locks.

Thunderbolts, well ignoring the fact that PGI launched them with statistics essentially trying to turn them into a low velocity guided version of MRM's which was really never going to work to begin with, don't really have a lot to offer to make someone consider using them over pretty much any other missile weapon in the game clan or inner sphere. Because objectively all other miissile weapons are just plain better. And no, anyone who tries to claim you have a great thunderbolt carrier build: no you don't. I've had enough experience with being shot at with thunderbolts and seeing just how often they'll miss a target entirely despite being guided to know otherwise directly from the "guy being shot at with them" end as well as the "guy trying to find something they can actually be used for" one.

Whatever you try comparing them to, they're an objectively worse equivalent then every missile type weapon in the game but rocket launchers, and even that's based off of the operating theory you'll get more shots that actually hit with the thunderbolts.

Velocity and trajectory changes to missile weapons in particular have long had a number of unintended complications with how they work in this game. And Thunderbolts launched with pretty substantial changes to both. It's made them virtually unusable as a weapon at launch of that weapons system.

#39 An6ryMan69

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Posted 04 April 2024 - 06:59 AM

I can't help but think that Thunderbolts were introduced, as they were, to both satisfy the "we want more weapons" crowd, as well as the "lock on weapons must suck" crowd. I think there is no way the Cauldron thought these things would perform well in the game...

Prove me wrong, but what I see is a weapon system actually meant to be a red herring, designed to be irrelevant and have no impact.

Edited by An6ryMan69, 04 April 2024 - 07:04 AM.


#40 ScrapIron Prime

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Posted 04 April 2024 - 09:29 AM

View PostScrapIron Prime, on 03 April 2024 - 12:53 PM, said:

I'm not holding my breath. Cauldron's focus has been to make sure that lock on weapons cannot compete with "higher skill" weapons. The adjustments should net to a minor improvement, but the tonnage tax of the Thunderbolts will still turn folks away from them.


Okay, I'm actually a little more hopeful about things after the patch note leak. Thunderbolts getting a meaningful velocity boost, putting them slightly ahead of Artemis LRMs, and perhaps even justifying the tonnage tax. I will experiment with them.

And loving the ECM change... going from 4x the time needed to get a lock down to 2x the time. Will definitely experiment, but I'm also thinking they may partly roll this back next month if T1 players start getting damaged by missiles. Posted Image





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