39 replies to this topic

[Meep Meep]

Remake the old incursion mode into a true assault mode by removing one base and forcing one team to invade the base of the other. The current assault is just a base cap optional skirmish and nearly always plays that way unless both teams rotate onto the other teams base.

[kalashnikity]

Krashbox, on 08 April 2024 - 06:37 PM, said:

What would have made escort interesting is if one player of the 12 takes command and uses the console to have everyone "Move Here" which the escortee follows until given a new destination. So someone will have to keep up dating the destination point as the game progresses and some one will have to take command if the leader dies. Sure would be better than a mindless Atlas wandering directly into the enemy firing line.

Alternate idea, make 3 possible destination points that the VIP needs to reach, default will be the middle path to a middle destination, If pathing is an issue there can be multiple paths (like a spider web) and VIP will take the "closest matching route" to any mid path corrections. and the "move here" feature can be used to direct the VIP where to go, and make path changes along the way,. VIP still needs to reach the destination and survive in order to win on defense, also give it the same targeting capabilities as the turrets, using a stock AS7-D-DC loadout fired in a random order, but with a slightly slower firing pattern than the stock atlas, and also be able to walk backwards to the destination with the moonwalker buff, so it can turn and fire at targets behind it so there are no easy backshot kills and no major delays due to it needing to walk backwards occasionally. but it will turn back around if not being attacked and face destination after a random time period of between ~10 to 30 seconds assuming no further agro. Atlas will need to be killed to win.

Here is where people will start tripping- I propose that if VIP is still alive, but does not reach the destination in time, then the game is a tie.

Wins will occur if VIP is dead or VIP reaches destination. That will force the VIP to keep moving so defense can't just hid the VIP, and will encourage suicide charges by offense at the end, to ensure a win,

Lastly, if all the offense is dead, no matter how much time is left, VIP automatically gets to safety. If all defense is dead then VIP still needs to be killed in order for offense to win. This is a boon for the defense who arguably may have a slightly harder job.

I hope that was written well enough to be understandable. And I hope I thought that out right.

Edited by kalashnikity, 08 April 2024 - 08:01 PM.

[kalashnikity]

Meep Meep, on 08 April 2024 - 06:44 PM, said:

Remake the old incursion mode into a true assault mode by removing one base and forcing one team to invade the base of the other. The current assault is just a base cap optional skirmish and nearly always plays that way unless both teams rotate onto the other teams base.

Do you want defense to turtle every game? Because that's how you get defense to turtle every game!

Alternate proposal...

There should be something to balance, like Artillery strike ammo that can be collected in the middle, (similar to fuel cells, but will remain active to be picked back up by offense if the carrier is killed, or destroyed by defense where they are dropped), make it artillery ammunition that need to be brought back to various artillery batteries for offense to use them, each section of the defense base can be targeted by a specific (destroy-able by defense) fixed artillery emplacement at the offense base. The ammo will regenerate at the three collection points (formerly fuel cells), and each section of the defense base will need a certain number of hits to destroy it, IDK about balance, but perhaps there should be just enough ammo supply regeneration available to destroy the defense base assuming defense does not interfere, but it will regenerate slowly, so offense can't just dog pile the ammo supply, so it will only regenerate in the time that 3 of the fastest mechs could carry it back and forth. In other words it can give a boost to have dedicated runners, but be highly unlikely to win the game for offense (yet still technically possible).

This will encourage defense to be offensive to try and stop ammo runners or destroy artillery emplacements, perhaps only specific artillery emplacements, ones that target still operational areas of the defense base.

And it will encourage some ammo runners and defensive actions by the offense.

AS a boon for defense, they win if any part of the base is still standing, a tie if all defense is dead but base is still standing. So offense must completely destroy the base in order to win. And there will still be turrets at the defense base, which do not have to be destroyed in order for offense win. Offense artillery will also have turrets (medium to short range only), but no protective walls, so artillery and turrets can be destroyed at a distance.

In other words, total, gloriously complicated, utter chaos.

Edited by kalashnikity, 08 April 2024 - 08:31 PM.

[Meep Meep]

kalashnikity, on 08 April 2024 - 08:20 PM, said:

Do you want defense to turtle every game? Because that's how you defense to turtle every game!

Well this wasn't exactly a proposal. Just a rough idea that would have to be fleshed out like you did.

This is probably how the new pvp game will be set up I suppose with more involved tasks than just meeting in the middle and pewing away. That seems to be the direction the popular online games are taking if the starship troopers and helldivers games are any indication. Less real players involved in each fight but way more npc stuff going on with you supporting or directing it. I like the trend though I do hope there is a similar arena mode offered too. Sometimes you just want to fight other mechs mecho a mecho.

[kalashnikity]

Meep Meep, on 08 April 2024 - 08:30 PM, said:

Well this wasn't exactly a proposal. Just a rough idea that would have to be fleshed out like you did.

This is probably how the new pvp game will be set up I suppose with more involved tasks than just meeting in the middle and pewing away. That seems to be the direction the popular online games are taking if the starship troopers and helldivers games are any indication. Less real players involved in each fight but way more npc stuff going on with you supporting or directing it. I like the trend though I do hope there is a similar arena mode offered too. Sometimes you just want to fight other mechs mecho a mecho.

ETA: this turned into a longer post than I expected.

It was a great suggestion! Indeed it got my mind spinning, as you can see.

We could use some NPCs, I mean, it's not like it's new technology to mix in some NPCs in a PVP game.
I really want to see MWO turned into something more like a MMORPG, with games that basically don't end, always going 24/7 365, so instead of arena shooter matches, we can have a constant never ending battle in a massive battle space that is randomly generated for each new planet. Every few days a new planet could be the main battle space, then another planet is generated and he main battle will be there. All happening in real time. Once the battle is "over" both participating sides get a payment, winning side gets (perhaps) 3 times as much payout. When joining a side we will join as mercenaries, units will join as a unit, but balance will be maintained via a rolling average of how many active members each unit has, so when the next unit joins they will be forced onto the opposite team as the last unit- to prevent too many units joining on one side. Individuals with no unit will be auto assigned a side, and people not in units can also join as teams (temporary units) up to a certain size (12?) so friends or even people who are in permanent units can make temporary units so they can be fighting on opposite side as their permanent unit (If balance allows). A certain amount of side swapping should be allowed depending on current balance status. Possibly with a bonus for switching to the lower population (and/or losing) side.

Battles can last for days, then sequentially from planet to planet over the course of weeks, just like a clan invasion, or inner sphere factions taking each other's territory.

And no more pre-made maps, I want randomness, forget about "balanced maps", real life is not balanced, lets see some random procedural generated maps, and massive worlds filled with NPCs, and cities/towns/farms.

And not just playing in your mech, but be able to explore, and interact without a mech, without any vehicle. I know I'm thinking big here, but I want to see this. Be able to do everything a real person would able able to do, up to and including combat as a human, and not just combat but other interactions as well such as having to actually buy parts for repairs in game (no more auto repair for free), and be able to find different tiers of weapons, just like in MW5, with limited respawn rates, and have to go to different cities on the current world to find parts to do repairs. How to handle destroyed mechs? Or player death? Therr can be a "rescue" and time out so player can respawn to the closest base (as is in lots of games) and player's mech (the most expensive asset) will be rescued via carrier, so player can repair it at their respawn area, or simply select a different mech they own and then move their way back to the battle (or any other action they want to do, such as go questing somewhere else).

A completely immersive experience, including missions both PVP and PVE that can be done both in mech, and other vehicles, and even as a human, which would open up opportunities have various upgrades to personal weapons and armor, and even cybernetics via completing quests.

A lot of it can be procedural generated, similar to how Skyrim does it, each newly generated map on each new contested world would have quests generated with locations for various parts of the quests semi randomly placed in various places.

All this would generate something like an economy, so you could do quests to make money to buy mech, vehicle, or even human upgrades.

There could be something like an Auction House, for people to exchange goods, sell/buy/trade things that they complete quests to get. This would generate a real economy in game. C-Bill would remain in game only, but MC would still be available and purchasable with real money.

Perhaps even a system similar to Eve Online could be developed, where people could farm and maybe even make money in real life? Possible.

Your mech gets smashed, need to repair but don't have the right laser? Get on the Auction house, decide how much you want to pay (tiered weapons will go for different prices!) and buy a replacement.

Don't feel like smashing mech vs mech? Go questing as a human (maybe on foot, maybe in a vehicle), and make some money by doing quests and finding some ultra rare tier weapons, or upgrade your own mech by doing questing as a human.

When questing you can team up with other humans and do PVP and/or PVE, for harder quest multiple people may need to join together *perhaps even red and blue team working together on occasion (betrayal is always an option!), perhaps doing missions/quests for the native planet population like fighting local warlord/evil ruler/pirates with a big base and lots of mechs/vehicles that will need a lot of teamwork to defeat. So red vs blue, but also red vs green, and blue vs green. and Sometimes blue and red vs green.

To ensure a baseline weapon availability, mech and vehicle repair bays (and human weapon/armor/cyborg upgrade shops) will always have access to the lowest tier equipment, so there is an incentive to quest or visit the auction house. Don't make it an extreme difference between tiers, but enough for there to be an incentive, maybe 30% difference between lowest and highest (extremely rare) Tiers.

And these worlds need to be BIG!

Big enough that a fast light could spend an hour getting across them. With proper auto generation of terrain this would work, just need enough premade assets, similar to how games like World of Warcraft have premade sets of caves, the auto generation can randomly select an asset and place it, also similar to games like Mincraft.

If we want this game to be big again, we need to think big, not 12 vs 12 shooter, but world building. Steal an aerospace fighter, or buy one. Customize a light hovercraft to go looking for a cache of top tier Lostech. Go on a quest on foot with some local law enforcement NPCs to take out local gang leader. Visit a space station and do some trading, then have to fight your way back out when things go south. And, of course, participate in epic battles in your mech or even aerospace fighter, battles that might last for days with thousands of Tier 6 NPC mechs involved, and a handful of higher tier NPC mechs, including some "Elite" NPCs that may need a few real players working together to take them down.

Each new map (every few days?)could be pre divided into red vs blue zones, and parameters for capturing areas within each other's zones set up, so various options can be unlocked, things like areas for quests for rare equipment (in limited repawn rates depending on how high the reward tier is) could be opened up by destroying enough of the other team's NPC mechs/vehicles/soldiers, etc. in that area, or base sitting, etc. Of course the enemy team can still enter with actual players even after the NPCs are all destroyed, so battles could still happen anywhere. On foot or in commandeered vehicles an enemy mech might not know who you are, or even be able to see you easily, (imagine being on foot when a Direwolf walks by and almost steps on you, or actualyl does step on you!) but when mechs/vehicles get close enough to each other IFF will be active, and only when the mech/vehicle of war is powered on, to add a layer of "fog of war", so you can't just go blasting everything you see, or you can... but you might be hitting you own side sometimes if their airspace fighter/tank/mech is not active you won't necessarily know for certain unless you have other evidence.

Anyways those are some ideas on how this game could actually get big again. Even private serves of World of Warcraft often exceed a peak population of 12,000 people at one time (warmane does, every day and they are running 3 servers, and one of them hits max for at least a few hours every day. But the game has to be built first.

"if you build it they will come"

[Gasboy]

Valley Pirate, on 07 April 2024 - 07:53 AM, said:

Easily the worst game mode. I would have much, MUCH preferred to have BOTH Escort and Incursion left over this one.

Skirmish, Domination, and Conquest. Just leave it at that and have all three as options for each match.

No thank you. Assault is actually one of the best modes. Think of it like skirmish, but you also have a way to force people to play. You know that last light mech who runs off and hides to save his death rate stat? If they wish to still hide while what's left of your time piles onto the red base cap, then you get a win without having to spend the last 10 minutes in a fruitless search for a hidden, shutdown light mech.

[1Exitar1]

No.

[martian]

Meep Meep, on 08 April 2024 - 06:44 PM, said:

Remake the old incursion mode into a true assault mode by removing one base and forcing one team to invade the base of the other. The current assault is just a base cap optional skirmish and nearly always plays that way unless both teams rotate onto the other teams base.

Sorry, but one reason why the Faction Play sucks is that "it forces one team to invade the base of the other". The defending entrenched team (often in stronger 'Mechs) is waiting, all 'Mechs in the partial cover, all weapons trained towards the entrance. After the attacking team exhausts in a few futile attacks, the fresh defending team counterattacks and the magnificent spawn farming ensues.

I do not think that replicating it in the Quick Play would be a good idea.

[Meep Meep]

That sounds more like bad map design with easy chokepoints for the defenders.

[martian]

Meep Meep, on 14 April 2024 - 01:35 AM, said:

That sounds more like bad map design with easy chokepoints for the defenders.

You have just described the PGI's work.

[VeeOt Dragon]

ah, get rid of Skirmish thats the worst game mode. i always chose a mode with an alternate win condition. there is just something satisfying about puling the win out from under the other team by playing the objective when you are on the receiving end of a stomp. well that and being able to end a match quickly when there is some cowardly light that cares t more about their KD than getting on to the next match. hey idiot nobody really gives a **** what your stats on some arbitrary third party site are, as much as PGI wants MWO to be some great "E-Sports" title its never going to happen and no one cares.

[martian]

VeeOt Dragon, on 14 April 2024 - 06:12 AM, said:

ah, get rid of Skirmish thats the worst game mode. i always chose a mode with an alternate win condition. there is just something satisfying about puling the win out from under the other team by playing the objective when you are on the receiving end of a stomp. well that and being able to end a match quickly when there is some cowardly light that cares t more about their KD than getting on to the next match. hey idiot nobody really gives a **** what your stats on some arbitrary third party site are, as much as PGI wants MWO to be some great "E-Sports" title its never going to happen and no one cares.

I do not see such behaviour too often in the game anymore.

[East Indy]

Assault's original design assumed some players would want to stay and guard the base.

MWO doesn't work like that.

And hardly anybody enjoys an early cap since they drop to shoot robots.

There's a straightforward fix: slow cap speed based on 'Mechs remaining. Something like speed = 1 / (mechs / 4).

That way, capping becomes much more relevant as teams thin out, people have gotten their battle quota in and are more willing to think about tactical placement.

[Gasboy]

martian, on 14 April 2024 - 11:21 AM, said:

I do not see such behaviour too often in the game anymore.

You're in tier 1.

[pbiggz]

Valley Pirate, on 07 April 2024 - 07:53 AM, said:

Easily the worst game mode. I would have much, MUCH preferred to have BOTH Escort and Incursion left over this one.

Skirmish, Domination, and Conquest. Just leave it at that and have all three as options for each match.

Not that I think this is a good idea, but, this thread is another expression of how rough our gamemodes are; stale and undeveloped beta game modes that never got another meaningful pass. This game deserves far better.

[VanBurenPhilips]

Quite funny to see, once the discussion starts, that EVERY mode is hated by someone

My two penn'orth, fwiw:*

- Get rid of Assault AND Skirmish
- Bring back Incursion
- Have all 3 modes (Con, Dom, Inc) in the vote as OP suggested
- As someone else suggested, maybe rework Inc to attack/defend teams

- Have ALL MODES (past & present) available in private matches.

Thoughts:
Players' fault or not, Assault really is garbage. By design, it's just a ludicrous objective, boring and unsatisfying to play, counter, win or lose by. Stupid play doesn't excuse that design - there's more than one fault here! It's all fault! It was better with turrets but still not good, the concept was far surpassed by incursion, the cap mechanic is far better in conquest, and the only roundly enjoyed matches are the ones where we ignored the objective just played skirmish instead. There's really no reason for it to be here, and several reasons it should go.

Domination is skirmish with a very simple objective that helps prevent boring endings, so do we need skirmish? I wish there were varied cap & spawn locations, but ppl have been saying that about all modes in all the years I've been playing.

I rarely enjoy capping personally, but Conquest really is the best mode. It's the only objective that actually gets players invested and sometimes produces exciting results. <- that's the standard we need.

* two pennies, hopefully!

[Jon Gotham]

Gasboy, on 13 April 2024 - 09:17 AM, said:

No thank you. Assault is actually one of the best modes. Think of it like skirmish, but you also have a way to force people to play. You know that last light mech who runs off and hides to save his death rate stat? If they wish to still hide while what's left of your time piles onto the red base cap, then you get a win without having to spend the last 10 minutes in a fruitless search for a hidden, shutdown light mech.

Well said brother.

[Mad Mech]

East Indy, on 14 April 2024 - 12:44 PM, said:

Assault's original design assumed some players would want to stay and guard the base.

MWO doesn't work like that.

And hardly anybody enjoys an early cap since they drop to shoot robots.

There's a straightforward fix: slow cap speed based on 'Mechs remaining. Something like speed = 1 / (mechs / 4).

That way, capping becomes much more relevant as teams thin out, people have gotten their battle quota in and are more willing to think about tactical placement.

This guy gets it.

When 1 red guy caps, inevitably 2 to 3 blue guys go to stop him. This severly cripples the main force causing the main force to die, ending the game before it starts. It's essentially griefing, because it's virtually undefendable. Of course this is exactly what the 1 red guy wanted.

The ability to nullify 25% of the opposing team so easily illustrates a core inbalance in the game; the TTK rate (time to kill) is so fast that the best survival tactic is to huddle into 2 blobs. And since maps easily allow access to each other's flanks, the path of least resistance becomes two blobs spiraling around each other. Once 2 or 3 guys die.. the fate of the team is all but sealed. And isn't this exactly what we see. Early cap tactics just make it worse.

It's old. It's tired.

Edited by Mad Mech, 15 April 2024 - 06:54 PM.

[martian]

Mad Mech, on 15 April 2024 - 06:28 PM, said:

This guy gets it.

When 1 red guy caps, inevitably 2 to 3 blue guys go to stop him. This severly cripples the main force causing the main force to die, ending the game before it starts. It's essentially griefing, because it's virtually undefendable. Of course this is exactly what the 1 red guy wanted.

In my opinion the greatest problem is when the core of the blue team stops playing at that moment.

Mad Mech, on 15 April 2024 - 06:28 PM, said:

The ability to nullify 25% of the opposing team so easily illustrates a core inbalance in the game; the TTK rate (time to kill) is so fast that the best survival tactic is to huddle into 2 blobs. And since maps easily allow access to each other's flanks, the path of least resistance becomes two blobs spiraling around each other. Once 2 or 3 guys die.. the fate of the team is all but sealed. And isn't this exactly what we see. Early cap tactics just make it worse.

It's old. It's tired.

Nascaring is not as common as it used to be (although certainly happens).

[Gasboy]

Mad Mech, on 15 April 2024 - 06:28 PM, said:

This guy gets it.

When 1 red guy caps, inevitably 2 to 3 blue guys go to stop him. This severly cripples the main force causing the main force to die, ending the game before it starts. It's essentially griefing, because it's virtually undefendable. Of course this is exactly what the 1 red guy wanted.

The ability to nullify 25% of the opposing team so easily illustrates a core inbalance in the game; the TTK rate (time to kill) is so fast that the best survival tactic is to huddle into 2 blobs. And since maps easily allow access to each other's flanks, the path of least resistance becomes two blobs spiraling around each other. Once 2 or 3 guys die.. the fate of the team is all but sealed. And isn't this exactly what we see. Early cap tactics just make it worse.

It's old. It's tired.

Yes, it can go that way. Just as it can easily be a 12-3 stomp where steppng on the opponent's base is either delaying the end, or squirting lemon juice on the wound.

But it can also be a tactic that turns the match around in your favor.

I do think the problem happens in the larger maps. The bases could be moved closer to the middle of the maps, or closer to where heatmaps show most 'action' is happening. This would make those early caps less of a problem since those responding to the cap aren't as far away from the action. I'm thinking Polar and other similarly large maps.