103 replies to this topic

[Will9761]

ironlegion60, on 14 April 2024 - 02:27 PM, said:

Nice, wish I played at the start. But, I’ve read and watched lore about the IS onnimechs. Don’t they suck literally? Not as an insult. People constantly bad talk the clans mechs, tech and culture.

Actually in Mechwarriors 3 and 4, IS Omnis were actually good because you didn't have to deal with the side torso XL problem. In the TT, I think that you need 3 side torso hits to the XL Engine until the mech was rendered combat ineffective. But it's only in MWO that has that problem were one bad side torso hit will get you due to the XL engine.

Edited by Will9761, 15 April 2024 - 04:45 PM.

[Half Ear]

Will9761, on 14 April 2024 - 07:22 PM, said:

Actually in Mechwarriors 3 and 4, IS Omnis were actually good because you didn't have to deal with the side torso XL problem. In the TT, I think that you need 3 side torso hits to the XL Engine until the mech was render combat ineffective. But it's only in MWO that has that problem were one bad side torso hit will get you due to the XL engine.

The boardgame, every mech dealt with 3 engine crits, regardless of location, became combat ineffective. And since PGI did not go close to the TT route, they should ignore the 3 engine crit entirely, remove XL's instant death on the lost of the first side torso then make each non-standard engine with different percentages with the lose of the first ST.

XL = 45% lost of heat dissipation / movement 45%
cXL = 30% lost of heat dissipation / movement 30%
LFE = 20% lost of heat dissipation / movement 20%

The current setup
XL = Instant Death at 0% heat
cXL/LFE 40% heat dissipation/movement (could lead to death if redlining)

cXL/XL have same weight savings but XL takes up 2 additional slots. Most IS components tend to be heavier and/or take up more crit slots.

Edited by Half Ear, 14 April 2024 - 08:54 PM.

[Armored Yokai]

Gimme a Sunder!!! 12 MGUN SUNDER IS POSSIBLE

[Steel Raven]

TELEFORCE, on 14 April 2024 - 03:00 AM, said:

Do people here care more about the IS omnis with XL engines or the IS omnis with single heat sinks?

I'm sure it will be buffed to an insane degree.

[Arkhangel]

Is worth noting not all IS Omnis have XLs, as well.

For instance, the Strider has a Standard.

Which actually makes the damn things stupidly hard to kill.

That said, XL or not, IS Omnis generally were actually decently well armored and mobile for their weight classes. And capable of carrying frankly ridiculous amounts of firepower for their size at times (like the Raptor-A's paired Large Lasers and triple Smalls on a 25 ton chassis that still had more armor than a standard Commando and could outrun it by 30kph).

And bear in mind this is an *Inner Sphere Omni*, which means you can mount all those nice IS weapons like RACs, Silver Bullet Gauss Rifles and MRMs on it.

Edited by Arkhangel, 15 April 2024 - 05:43 AM.

[TELEFORCE]

Arkhangel, on 15 April 2024 - 05:41 AM, said:

Is worth noting not all IS Omnis have XLs, as well.

For instance, the Strider has a Standard.

Which actually makes the damn things stupidly hard to kill.

I don't think the Strider is any harder to kill than any other battlemech with a standard engine, unless hitbox shenanigans are in effect - it's basically a walking box, after all! In MWO the nice thing about standard engines is that there isn't any additional effect on heat dissipation on side torso loss outside lost external heat sinks. In a sense that can make a 'mech more combat-effective as it's getting beaten to death.

The Hauptmann is another IS omni that uses a standard engine.

I'm all for changing the way IS XL engines behave on side torso destruction for MWO. I like the previous idea about them getting a bigger heat dissipation nerf than the Clan XL engines considering the IS XL engines have more slots in the side torsos. I think that change is long overdue. Or maybe it can be an IS-omni-only rule to set them apart from other standard IS 'mechs?

Edited by TELEFORCE, 15 April 2024 - 06:58 AM.

[Hawk819]

Well, whatever the change, and/or quirks needed to make them work. All I'll say is: We better get the variants associate with those arms coming with BHKU-O. Or I'm going to be very upset with some Devs.


Looking @ you Matt and Daeron.

Edited by Hawk819, 15 April 2024 - 08:10 AM.

[Cyborne Elemental]

What I find odd is the differences in speed and weight vs podspace using IS equipment.

IS XL 300 on a 60 ton frame does not match the specifications listed on Sarna for the BlackHawk-KU stock variant.
I can only assume that the build differs slightly, or that a LFE is going to be used in place of the fragile IS XL.

This build follows the exact specifications listed on Sarna as far as speed, weapons, minus the TC1 and AMS, but its the only build that fits the criteria.

https://mwo.nav-alph...ad3ba9c0_CUSTOM


The Black Hawk-KU is an Inner Sphere version of the Clan Black Hawk OmniMech. In order to make it possible to copy the Black Hawk, the Black Hawk-KU is built ten tons heavier than its Clan counterpart. The Black Hawk-KU is built on a sixty ton chassis and is powered by a Vlar 300 XL engine which propels it to a top speed of 86.4 km/h. The Black Hawk-KU is armored with twelve and a half tons of Mitchel Argon armor giving it almost the maximum amount of protection for its weight. Mounted on the base chassis are five jump jets giving the Black Hawk-KU a jumping distance of up to one hundred and fifty meters in all of its configurations. The Black Hawk-KU has fourteen double heat sinks allowing it to dissipate the significant waste heat that is common to the configurations that fill the seventeen tons of pod space.[3]
Weapons and Equipment

The primary configuration of the Black Hawk-KU carries six medium lasers as its primary weapons. These are backed up by four highly accurate Medium Pulse Lasers and two Small Lasers. Additionally, two more double heat sinks have been added over what is carried on the base chassis.[3]

Chassis : Alshain 52 Endo Steel

Edited by Cyborne Elemental, 15 April 2024 - 11:38 AM.

[simon1812]

Color me curious

[martian]

Cyborne Elemental, on 15 April 2024 - 09:53 AM, said:

What I find odd is the differences in speed and weight vs podspace using IS equipment.

IS XL 300 on a 60 ton frame does not match the specifications listed on Sarna for the BlackHawk-KU stock variant.
I can only assume that the build differs slightly, or that a LFE is going to be used in place of the fragile IS XL.

This build follows the exact specifications listed on Sarna as far as speed, weapons, minus the TC1 and AMS, but its the only build that fits the criteria.

https://mwo.nav-alph...ad3ba9c0_CUSTOM

Use the official Technical Readout and the official record sheet. I did it.

The upcoming Black Hawk-KU should have 17 tons of pod space.

EDIT:
You should have used standard chassis, 300-rated extralight fusion engine, etc.

Edited by martian, 15 April 2024 - 11:09 AM.

[martian]

Steel Raven, on 15 April 2024 - 03:40 AM, said:

I'm sure it will be buffed to an insane degree.

Dunno. The Longbow was less buffed than I expected. We will know soon.

[Terran123rd]

Cyborne Elemental, on 15 April 2024 - 09:53 AM, said:

What I find odd is the differences in speed and weight vs podspace using IS equipment.

<snip>

Sarna's listed speed doesn't match because it's based on hexes per turn. A 300 engine on a 60 ton chassis gives you a cruising speed of 5 hexes per turn. Max speed is 1.5 times cruising speed. This gives a max speed of 7.5 hexes per turn, but you can't move half a hex in tabletop, so it gets rounded to 8 hexes per turn.

Multiply that by 10.8 and you get the Sarna value of 86.4.

MWO can work with decimals, so max speed is just (engine rating / weight) * 1.5, no rounding needed.

300 engine / 60 tons is 5, times 1.5 is 7.5.

Multiply that by 10.8 and you get MWO's max speed of 81.

[Arkhangel]

Which is still very fast for a Heavy.

[Noishkel Hauptman]

Ehh, not my favorite IS omni. But still, it's nice to see the tech show up in the game. Maybe we can eventually get either get the Avatar or the Blackjack omni.

[The Chancelor]

What a time to be alive

[Tiy0s]

There were a few ideas internally on how to deal with the Black Hawk-KU having a locked XL, like many other IS Omnimechs. The cleanest solution in the end was to just give hefty survival quirks to the side torsos. We didn’t want to give it a unique engine type or make it like a clan XL since a change like that would have to be uniformly applied to any IS Omnimechs if we add more down the road, and that felt like a slippery slope when some are more susceptible to being XL checked than others.

I’m pretty confident the total health the BHKU will have in the STs will help compensate for the forced XL, but also keep in mind that this is also our first IS Omnimech. We may not get it right on the first try, but if the BHKU is lacking we’ll certainly buff it as soon as we can. My hope is that this goes well enough that we can look at more IS Omnis in the future.

[martian]

Tiy0s, on 16 April 2024 - 08:30 AM, said:

There were a few ideas internally on how to deal with the Black Hawk-KU having a locked XL, like many other IS Omnimechs. The cleanest solution in the end was to just give hefty survival quirks to the side torsos. We didn’t want to give it a unique engine type or make it like a clan XL since a change like that would have to be uniformly applied to any IS Omnimechs if we add more down the road, and that felt like a slippery slope when some are more susceptible to being XL checked than others.

I’m pretty confident the total health the BHKU will have in the STs will help compensate for the forced XL, but also keep in mind that this is also our first IS Omnimech. We may not get it right on the first try, but if the BHKU is lacking we’ll certainly buff it as soon as we can. My hope is that this goes well enough that we can look at more IS Omnis in the future.

Thanks for the info.

[Will9761]

I can understand re-using the rest of the IS and Clan Chassis like the Kit Fox for the Arctic Fox, Orion or IIC version for the Perseus or even the Blackjack for the Omni version, I just hope that models look different enough to tell them apart instead of just being a BlackJack Omni that looks like a regular Blackjack or an Arctic Fox that is just an IS Kit Fox.

Also, some side comparison pictures would be nice to have for their equivalents to alleviate that problem.

Edited by Will9761, 16 April 2024 - 08:56 AM.

[Amsro]

Tiy0s, on 16 April 2024 - 08:30 AM, said:

There were a few ideas internally on how to deal with the Black Hawk-KU having a locked XL, like many other IS Omnimechs. The cleanest solution in the end was to just give hefty survival quirks to the side torsos. We didn’t want to give it a unique engine type or make it like a clan XL since a change like that would have to be uniformly applied to any IS Omnimechs if we add more down the road, and that felt like a slippery slope when some are more susceptible to being XL checked than others.

I’m pretty confident the total health the BHKU will have in the STs will help compensate for the forced XL, but also keep in mind that this is also our first IS Omnimech. We may not get it right on the first try, but if the BHKU is lacking we’ll certainly buff it as soon as we can. My hope is that this goes well enough that we can look at more IS Omnis in the future.

My only question is how the mech will be sorted/categorized. Will it be considered an IS mech?

[martian]

Amsro, on 16 April 2024 - 09:48 AM, said:

My only question is how the mech will be sorted/categorized. Will it be considered an IS mech?

Yes.

The first post of this thread says it clearly:

InnerSphereNews, on 13 April 2024 - 10:03 AM, said:

The first IS Omnimech coming to MWO, the Black Hawk-KU.

And of course, It has been produced in the Inner Sphere and all components are Inner Sphere made - engine, gyro, armor, etc.