60 replies to this topic

[ScrapIron Prime]

And this is why I use... PPC! Because ECM doesn't care how close the shot was when it gets hit.

Honestly, I find it vital to have a Light PPC (or now Plasma Cannon) on any mech running streaks. And if I can spare the tonnage on a mech with other lock on weapons, I do that too. A single LPPC makes the Thunderbolts go.

Thunderbolts and lightning... very very frightening. I named that Kintaro "Galileo".

Edited by ScrapIron Prime, 22 April 2024 - 07:43 AM.

[caravann]

Tbh it is russian roulette to know what work or doesn't work with every update.
Missiles have been so useless that the solution to the missiles is turning it into an autocannon.
That is what Thunderbolts really are. It weights like an autocannon and it acts like an autocannon.
The only thing it doesn't allow is manual targeting. But how did it all end up like this because they thought of the streak SRM as too good for meta.

No there are no reason to use tag as many have proven I can not tell what the tag does any longer since I read the localisation of the weapon and it lies. It says what the tag is doing. In practice it does nothing.

Don't get me on artemis BS. You are better off never use artemis. It is just that bad.
You can never say that the spread reduction is worth the cost. Never is it worth mention or for the fact that artemis was never meant to be forced upon the player as each weapon need an artemis module.

The easiest way to defeat the opponent is to kill them. And the missiles velocity is a joke. An update that would benefit missiles would be to increase velocity since you will need to wait to next X-mas for LRM to arrive.

Even if SRM has better velocity it ends at SRM6 with 12 Damage in which 3 missiles will niss the target and you end up with 6 damage for each shot. Take any weapon. Any clan ER medium laser and you deal higher damage since the ER medium laser deals 6 damage and is instant travel weapon.

So what is the Thunderbolts doing? They're pretending to be streak SRM2's. I guess we'll never know what a targeting computer is doing beyond increasing the range of laser weapon . I seen paperweights who been better.

Read the description on targeting computer and then compare it with suduko

[MechMaster059]

Valley Pirate, on 20 April 2024 - 12:37 PM, said:

Can't get a lock on a guy who's literally smooshing up next to me. ..

I know your frustration Valley Pirate as I experienced the same thing when I first tried using STREAKs. I had to do a little digging on the internet to find out what was going on. As other have mentioned, you need a Beagle Active Probe or Clan/Light Active Probe to counteract the ECM if you're within its 90m bubble. The Clan Light Active Probe is a measly ½ ton and generally is worth getting.

Tags are absolutely worth using. I consider a Light Tag a requirement for STREAKs. Without it your mech will be hard-countered by any mech equipped with an ECM. You only need to stay out of the 90m bubble for your Light Tag to still be able to give you a lock. The lock time reduction is also a big deal for STREAKs making it much easier to get a successful hit against enemy light mechs zipping around.

A Tag will dramatically increase the lethality of ATMs because the spread reduction means a majority of the ATMs will slam into the enemy mechs CT even at long range.

Whether or not to get a Tag for LRMs is a tricky question. It's not bad to get a Tag but I generally find they're not worth it since LRMs are primarily an indirect fire weapons so most of the time the Tag can't be used and I'd rather have a medium laser in its place for self defense against light mechs.

I've sometimes wondered if Tag should still be able to provided a lock at close range against ECM with the ECM merely blocking the display of the enemy paper doll because it's a significant amount of slot/tonnage overhead to get BOTH a Tag and a BAP for light/medium mechs and it feels counter-intuitive for a laser to be disrupted by ECM. I'm not sure, I can see why things are balanced the way they are currently.

Getting a Light PPC can be helpful as other have suggested but is often not a realistic solution due to build constraints. (A tag is much lighter, doesn't create heat, and has no cooldown so there are serious trade-offs for going the LPPC route vs ECM)

[Valley Pirate]

So for everyone giving me crap for not knowing that it doesn't work within ECM range, or that it's not a 'hard counter' etc -

The weapon tool-tip LITERALLY SAYS "Counters ECM."

That's it. No caveats or exceptions. Just COUNTERS ECM.

So it's only good on a brawler, who will need to be within a few hundred meters max. Now it's also no good inside of 90 meters. I'm already sacrificing cover and putting myself in a tough position by brawling. Not to mention giving away my position with a bright red laser that I MUST keep active. And the tool-tip is straight-up wrong.

So yeah, I'm salty about it. But more than that, the equipment need to be changed to be worth having at all. Not sure why a direct-sight laser guidance system being somehow WORSE at close range makes any sense, but there you have it.

Edit: thought I'd also mention that I do, in fact, have a light Beagle on the 'Mech where this is happened, meaning I'm now wasting even more tonnage and slots for zero gain. Granted it may have been crit out at this point, but I don't recall being open anywhere at the time this went down.

Edited by Valley Pirate, 22 April 2024 - 08:35 PM.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

MechMaster059, on 22 April 2024 - 05:52 PM, said:

Tags are absolutely worth using. I consider a Light Tag a requirement for STREAKs. Without it your mech will be hard-countered by any mech equipped with an ECM. You only need to stay out of the 90m bubble for your Light Tag to still be able to give you a lock. The lock time reduction is also a big deal for STREAKs making it much easier to get a successful hit against enemy light mechs zipping around.

A Tag will dramatically increase the lethality of ATMs because the spread reduction means a majority of the ATMs will slam into the enemy mechs CT even at long range.

Remember, TAG's lock-time reduction and spread reduction apply only on IDF locks. So mounting a TAG on your own mech will never give you those benefits. It only makes an ECM shielded or active stealth protected mech targetable (red brackets).

Valley Pirate, on 22 April 2024 - 08:32 PM, said:

So for everyone giving me crap for not knowing that it doesn't work within ECM range, or that it's not a 'hard counter' etc -

The weapon tool-tip LITERALLY SAYS "Counters ECM."

That's it. No caveats or exceptions. Just COUNTERS ECM.

So it's only good on a brawler, who will need to be within a few hundred meters max. Now it's also no good inside of 90 meters. I'm already sacrificing cover and putting myself in a tough position by brawling. Not to mention giving away my position with a bright red laser that I MUST keep active. And the tool-tip is straight-up wrong.

So yeah, I'm salty about it. But more than that, the equipment need to be changed to be worth having at all. Not sure why a direct-sight laser guidance system being somehow WORSE at close range makes any sense, but there you have it.

Edit: thought I'd also mention that I do, in fact, have a light Beagle on the 'Mech where this is happened, meaning I'm now wasting even more tonnage and slots for zero gain. Granted it may have been crit out at this point, but I don't recall being open anywhere at the time this went down.

Yeah, we all know that the tooltips are badly worded at best, flatout wrong at worst. You can have a fit about it, or educate yourself about it as best as possible. There's a fine (and what's more important, up to date) wiki about all kinds of stuff on https://mwo.nav-alpha.com/wiki

From a lore standpoint, your laser-guidance system needs some radio connection to the missile it guides and that is scrambled by the ECM. You could also ask yourself why a tiny red beam of light would not only bypass, but outright shutdown an electric device.

Edited by Aidan Crenshaw, 22 April 2024 - 09:37 PM.

[LordNothing]

ScrapIron Prime, on 22 April 2024 - 07:42 AM, said:

And this is why I use... PPC! Because ECM doesn't care how close the shot was when it gets hit.

Honestly, I find it vital to have a Light PPC (or now Plasma Cannon) on any mech running streaks. And if I can spare the tonnage on a mech with other lock on weapons, I do that too. A single LPPC makes the Thunderbolts go.

Thunderbolts and lightning... very very frightening. I named that Kintaro "Galileo".

well i was thinking of a marduk song. but i dont think they give me enough characters to name my mech headhunter halfmoon.

[MechMaster059]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 22 April 2024 - 09:36 PM, said:

Remember, TAG's lock-time reduction and spread reduction apply only on IDF locks. So mounting a TAG on your own mech will never give you those benefits. It only makes an ECM shielded or active stealth protected mech targetable (red brackets).

...

The tool-tip makes no mention of direct/indirect fire so I thought you were full of hot air, but I tested it just now and you are correct. I verified you are correct at the official MWO wiki as well.

WOW... just wow.... this is so incredibly bad that Tags provide no lock time or spread reduction to direct fire... unbelievable... except it's totally believable.

This is incredibly disappointing to find out. Tags are still worth getting to avoid being hard countered by ECM equipped mechs and to be able to target stealth but even so I'm blown away by how bad this is.

I had noticed every once in a while that lock-on time didn't seem to be effected but thought maybe I was just seeing things. I honestly thought Tagging an enemy was allowing me to kill them faster with ATMs... LOL.

Tags are still useful but my opinion of them is now changed. They are certainly underpowered. Not providing lock-on acceleration to direct fire is especially counter-intuitive and outrageous. STREAKs need that REALLY BADLY.

SMH

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Yeah, I tend to avoid hot air when I can. I also ignore the tooltips in favor of the player-administrated wiki and I keep tabs of the patchnotes.

[martian]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 23 April 2024 - 09:35 PM, said:

Yeah, I tend to avoid hot air when I can. I also ignore the tooltips in favor of the player-administrated wiki and I keep tabs of the patchnotes.

PGI has created two MWO wikis. Both died soon because PGI lost quickly any interest in maintaining them.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

I was referring to the player-administrated wiki https://mwo.nav-alpha.com/wiki

[martian]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 24 April 2024 - 01:44 AM, said:

I was referring to the player-administrated wiki https://mwo.nav-alpha.com/wiki

And I was referring to the pair of other, PGI-started wikis.

[Boldkill]

My problem with TAG is everyone knows when they are being painted. Not only is the laser visible, but the other player's HUD will clue them in as well. I love playing as a scout, but I never use TAG because the moment I do EVERYONE knows I am there.

[Meep Meep]

Boldkill, on 24 April 2024 - 12:06 PM, said:

My problem with TAG is everyone knows when they are being painted. Not only is the laser visible, but the other player's HUD will clue them in as well. I love playing as a scout, but I never use TAG because the moment I do EVERYONE knows I am there.

Thats why you use an ecm raven and get in behind them. Just lighting them up with your insane sensor range is enough to get your team locks and you only need to use narc/tag for ecm counters. Narc/tag is a nice bonus to help with lock speed and spread but not necessary if you get your positioning right. The high cockpit and hardpoints means you only have to expose a sliver to get los anyways.

Get a couple of buddies to run a thunderbolt spam mech and use this to get them locks.

rvn-3l

You can even get in decent damage with the 2 lppc over time if you shoot when the missiles are hitting them so they don't notice you over the lockon spam.

Edited by Meep Meep, 25 April 2024 - 04:35 PM.

[VeeOt Dragon]

you also need to remember that they haven't changed the wording in the tool tips since the game's introduction. as an older player i can tell you there was indeed a time when TAG did exactly as it said and reduced lock time/ spread even with direct fire (though even then you would get scrambled if inside an enemy ECM bubble). hell same goes for Artemis, it actually was once worth its tonnage and slot tax (as long as you weren't running tons of smaller launchers). a good time back (before they brought in the Cauldron) they did a massive balance pass on LRM and locking weapons in general. it was during this pass that they added the two firing arcs. at the same time they nerfed the velocity of LRM as well as every system that did anything to assist locking weapons. though some of the stuff in TCs never did effect them as long as i have been playing at least.

so yeah the tool tips are WAY out of date.

Edited by VeeOt Dragon, 26 April 2024 - 04:57 AM.

[martian]

VeeOt Dragon, on 26 April 2024 - 04:54 AM, said:

you also need to remember that they haven't changed the wording in the tool tips since the game's introduction. as an older player i can tell you there was indeed a time when TAG did exactly as it said and reduced lock time/ spread even with direct fire (though even then you would get scrambled if inside an enemy ECM bubble). hell same goes for Artemis, it actually was once worth its tonnage and slot tax (as long as you weren't running tons of smaller launchers). a good time back (before they brought in the Cauldron) they did a massive balance pass on LRM and locking weapons in general. it was during this pass that they added the two firing arcs. at the same time they nerfed the velocity of LRM as well as every system that did anything to assist locking weapons. though some of the stuff in TCs never did effect them as long as i have been playing at least.

so yeah the tool tips are WAY out of date.

This entire game is "WAY out of date".

[LordNothing]

Boldkill, on 24 April 2024 - 12:06 PM, said:

My problem with TAG is everyone knows when they are being painted. Not only is the laser visible, but the other player's HUD will clue them in as well. I love playing as a scout, but I never use TAG because the moment I do EVERYONE knows I am there.

mwll had this thing where tag was only visible in night vision mode. more realistic since nobody paints targets in visible-spectrum light.

[Gasboy]

Boldkill, on 24 April 2024 - 12:06 PM, said:

My problem with TAG is everyone knows when they are being painted. Not only is the laser visible, but the other player's HUD will clue them in as well. I love playing as a scout, but I never use TAG because the moment I do EVERYONE knows I am there.

Moet people like to know that what they're aiming at is actually being painted. That's why the laser is visible.

[LordNothing]

Gasboy, on 27 April 2024 - 09:38 AM, said:

Moet people like to know that what they're aiming at is actually being painted. That's why the laser is visible.

well unless you are a military recon unit. if you can see the beam, the enemy can see the beam.

Edited by LordNothing, 27 April 2024 - 03:03 PM.

[martian]

LordNothing, on 27 April 2024 - 08:24 AM, said:

mwll had this thing where tag was only visible in night vision mode. more realistic since nobody paints targets in visible-spectrum light.

Yeah, MWLL did some things differently.

[martian]

Gasboy, on 27 April 2024 - 09:38 AM, said:

Moet people like to know that what they're aiming at is actually being painted. That's why the laser is visible.

Every time you paint enemy 'Mech with your TAG, a small crosshairs symbol appears above the enemy 'Mech.



It works even on those maps where the TAG laser beam is barely visible.

You can try it in the game.

Edited by martian, 27 April 2024 - 09:47 PM.