17 replies to this topic

[Maxim Shepsky]

Disregard.

Its time I just take a break. Game is simply not enjoyable at all in its current state for me. I uninstalled and will be out for the forseeable future. Sorry I wasted everyone's time.

Edited by Maxim Shepsky, 04 June 2024 - 01:58 AM.

[martian]

Maxim Shepsky, on 03 June 2024 - 10:27 PM, said:

Has there been a SIGNIFICANT change to the way armor works making it essentially useless?
....
Is this a feature, bug, or have I been playing a completely different game for the last 2-3 years? Has anyone else felt this? I don't see how I could possibly have suddenly gotten so utterly terrible at the game to be in this state nor do I see how I could have so fundamentally misunderstood how the damage model works for so long. Even if I did misunderstand things, why does it feel like a completely different game now?

PGI / Cauldron have been introducing powerful assault 'Mechs in quick succession and those 'Mechs are capable of boating a lot of weapons and massive alpha strikes (often ranged).

PGI / Cauldron have also been adding powerful ranged weapons in quick succession that boost the firepower of common 'Mechs too.

On the other hand, armor (with some quirk fine tuning) has stayed the same.

Thus, it is no surprise that you feel being quickly killed.

It is also no big surprise that you do not see as many light and medium 'Mechs in the game as you used to see. After all, one good hit from a heavy or assault 'Mech is often enough to kill or cripple them.

[KursedVixen]

LapisMaddog, on 03 June 2024 - 11:58 PM, said:

the dhs nerf helped a bit and new armor quirks are common though its still not enough to counter the alphas and lights are still super strong

That only effected Clan mechs though and we just got 4 brand new IS assaults.

[martian]

KursedVixen, on 04 June 2024 - 05:08 AM, said:

That only effected Clan mechs though and we just got 4 brand new IS assaults.

How many times do I have to tell you that you can not cherry-pick one aspect while ignoring everything else that does not suit your agenda?

The Bullshark has five IS variants ... and two Clan variants that you have just "forgot" to mention (one of them is Hero 'Mech).

And by the way, that DHS nerf was not especially severe.

Edited by martian, 04 June 2024 - 08:57 AM.

[KursedVixen]

LapisMaddog, on 04 June 2024 - 04:28 PM, said:

yes cause clan mechs had the high alphas, stone rhino with gaussvom, stone rhino with lasvom, direwolf with gaussvom, mad cat mkii with gaussvom etc IS only had the stone crusher with lasvom also all of them being gaussvom/lasvom is why heatsinks were nerfed cause that would affect gaussvom/lasvom the most

Don't see how that effected guassvomit... considering they lowered the heat on the Hyper gauss.


do you seriously not remember the 4 binary laser stalkers?

Edited by KursedVixen, 04 June 2024 - 05:07 PM.

[KursedVixen]

martian, on 04 June 2024 - 08:56 AM, said:

How many times do I have to tell you that you can not cherry-pick one aspect while ignoring everything else that does not suit your agenda?

The Bullshark has five IS variants ... and two Clan variants that you have just "forgot" to mention (one of them is Hero 'Mech).

And by the way, that DHS nerf was not especially severe.

When did they nerf IS DHS?

So i missed one, my point still stands that PGI seems to like adding huge mechs with bunches of weapons and this topic seems to be how short the TTK is because of that, not about clan vs IS.

Your so caught up thinking about my 'cherry-pi9cking" you think I'm constantly spouting stuff about how Clan is unfair, further proof you want me to continue about it.

All I said was only Clan double heat sinks were nerfed, are you denying they were nerfed? Or are you saying IS Double heat sinks were nerfed as well?

Edited by KursedVixen, 04 June 2024 - 05:13 PM.

[KursedVixen]

LapisMaddog, on 04 June 2024 - 05:11 PM, said:

none of the bullsharks are high alpha except the 2ac20 3snub build but that is not very good afaik and the lbx20 srm build but that spreads and IS dhs was not nerfed

adding 8 more assaults doesn't help the problem.

It seems to me Martian says they were as all i said was that clan double heat sinks were nerfed then he goes on some rant about me 'cherry-picking' when All i said was, and I quote.

KursedVixen, on 04 June 2024 - 05:08 AM, said:

That only effected Clan mechs though and we just got 4 brand new IS assaults.

granted i missed one.

Edited by KursedVixen, 04 June 2024 - 05:17 PM.

[martian]

KursedVixen, on 04 June 2024 - 05:09 PM, said:

All I said was only Clan double heat sinks were nerfed, are you denying they were nerfed? Or are you saying IS Double heat sinks were nerfed as well?

This is literally what I wrote:

martian, on 04 June 2024 - 08:56 AM, said:

And by the way, that DHS nerf was not especially severe.

[Gasboy]

KursedVixen, on 04 June 2024 - 05:06 PM, said:

Don't see how that effected guassvomit... considering they lowered the heat on the Hyper gauss.

Gaussvomit is named such because it is a combination of gauss rifles and lasers. While martian may say the DHS nerf was not particularly severe, it was noticeable. A pure laservom is worse off but gaussvom builds will have noticed.

Edited by Gasboy, 05 June 2024 - 02:10 AM.

[RockmachinE]

The power creep is real. Unfortunately.

[KursedVixen]

LapisMaddog, on 05 June 2024 - 08:37 AM, said:

the 4 binary stalker had 72 alpha nothing compared to clan 90+ alphas, the stalker could get 82 alpha with 2 extra erml but then it is even worse with cooling, also the dhs nerf affected gaussvom cause it still had lasvom with the gauss i think you use to be able to get a full gaussvom dire alpha 2-3 times in a row without stopping to cooldown but now you cant after the nerf, and hags dont work well with full lasvom at all cause no tons for heatsinks and hags are even more heat so it has no sustained and no ato

I don't believe you when you say the stalker is worse in cooling if your talking about a clan equivalent. IS gets better heat quirks on the skill tree. not to mention better mech quirks. Now if you meant it's hotter with extra medium lasers,

[KursedVixen]

LapisMaddog, on 05 June 2024 - 09:33 AM, said:

without skills the 4 binary stalker no erml has a ato of 1.2 and a sustained dps of 5.5 max dps 15 a marauder IIC with the same alpha has a ato of 3.3 and sustained dps of 7.9 max 12.3 (its also 7 kph faster) it has way better cooling i'd still rather use the stalker cause better hitboxes and mounts but if just cooling matters then the clans are way better

If the maruder is carrying 4 er large you can only fire 3 without ghost heat, and is the engine and number of heat sinks the same?

[KursedVixen]

LapisMaddog, on 05 June 2024 - 10:54 AM, said:

it has 2 hll 6 erml which is the exact same alpha they are functionally identical and with same engine the marauder IIC has 3.6 ato 8.4 sustained dps and the heatsinks are not the same cause clan mechs can use more heatsinks if you used the same amount of heatsinks you would have 25 wasted tons

it's not a fair comparision if the number of heat sinks is not equal.

I'm willing to bet that with the same number of heat sinks the stalker is colder...

Edited by KursedVixen, 05 June 2024 - 11:07 AM.

[KursedVixen]

LapisMaddog, on 05 June 2024 - 11:09 AM, said:

yes but with clan mechs you can boat more heatsinks so you boat more heatsinks if you use a higher heat less tonnage build why would you not compensate for the extra heat with all the tons you have left

because clan weapons are generally hotter so they need more heat sinks to compensate their weapons also fire slower.

[Void Angel]

KursedVixen, on 05 June 2024 - 09:21 AM, said:

I don't believe you when you say the stalker is worse in cooling if your talking about a clan equivalent. IS gets better heat quirks on the skill tree. not to mention better mech quirks. Now if you meant it's hotter with extra medium lasers,

Your beliefs aren't relevant when math is at hand - heck, you don't even need to do most of the math! MechDB does it for you. So let's look, shall we?

This is the 4BLC Stalker he's talking about; This is an actual equivalent Marauder IIC (a 4ERLL build would be silly; not enough firepower for the Clans.) These builds are as equivalent as the IS can get when trying to match Clan laser vomit - however, the first Stalker build isn't optimized for cooling, so we'll look at This Build for the Stalker as well. Note that neither the Marauder IIC nor the 4BLC Stalker can fire all of their lasers at once without heat scale penalties.

So, right away you see certain trends in these builds before skills set in. The pure BLC stalker has 1.2 AtO, with a mere 3.74h/s cooling; The Marauder IIC has a mere 1.0 2ith 5.0h/s, while the 3BLC Stalker has a stunning 1.3 AtO and 4.18 heat per second in cooling. This takes into account the Stalker 4N's dominating 5% heat quirk. The two Stalkers also have 72 and 69 firepower, respectively, while the Marauder IIC has an 82-point alpha.
Now we have to do some more complex math; fortunately, it's not too hard to get at what we want. While cooling is constant across skill trees, the total cooling benefit from all the Clantech heat reduction nodes is 8.4%, while the Inner Sphere gets 10.5%. So the Clans already have an empirical advantage in cooling, which isn't affected by skill tree differences or quirks. However, that still leaves net cooling. Counting up the heat from each alpha, you've got (55.2x0.916=) 50.6 heat for the Marauder IIC, 45.3 for the Stalker 4BLC, and 46.1 heat for the 3BLC Stalker. Express that as a ratio, and you get a decent evaluation of each build's trading efficiency (lower is better.)

In any case, Alpha Heat per Cooling works out to 10.12 for the Marauder IIC; 12.11 and 11.03 for the two Stalkers, respectively. So even if we're not worrying about maximum DPS (the Marauder is higher,) or sustained DPS (the Marauder is higher,) and just focusing on cooling - the Clan's inherent cooling advantage from nerfed DHS is still easily enough to buy off a 5% heat quirk and a 3.1% advantage from the skill tree.

Now that you've seen these empirical facts laid out before you, I'm sure we'll never hear you claim that the Clans have worse cooling ever again, right? Eh? Right?

PS: The Stalker can never get the same number of DHS as a Clan 'mech in any circumstance, so insisting on "equal heat sinks" is silly, and deliberately ignores the balance impact that the Clans' compact equipment has on firepower, heat capacity, and cooling.
PPS: Am I the only one who's noticed that the OP with "years of experience" created this forum account literally three days ago?

PPPS: Clan weapons' rate of fire is accounted for in their MechDB stats - which as I pointed out, demonstrate that their maximum and sustained DPS is higher than an equivalent IS laser vomit build.

[KursedVixen]

again i said compared with the same number of heat sinks.

also 3 clan large pulse lasers induces ghost heat...

one is binary laser does the same damage as a clan heavy large at 1.5 less heat

Edited by KursedVixen, 05 June 2024 - 05:49 PM.

[KursedVixen]

LapisMaddog, on 05 June 2024 - 05:46 PM, said:

why would you use the same number of heatsinks

Why do you need that extra 0.74 heat dissipation over single heat sinks on the stalker?

Edited by KursedVixen, 05 June 2024 - 07:54 PM.

[Void Angel]

KursedVixen, on 05 June 2024 - 05:34 PM, said:

again i said compared with the same number of heat sinks.

also 3 clan large pulse lasers induces ghost heat...

one is binary laser does the same damage as a clan heavy large at 1.5 less heat

Again, since the Clans have access to significantly smaller DHS AND lighter (as well as more compact) weapons, insisting on "equal numbers of heat sinks" is invalid reasoning. As always, you want to ignore the strengths of Clan weaponry and equipment in order to pretend - and that is the correct word - that Clantech's balancing drawbacks are unfair.

Case in point, the HLL costs four tons, and you ignore that little fact to complain about 1.5 heat difference - when the BLC is a 9-ton weapon.

PS: You do know that we don't have to fire all of our weapons at once, right? That we have weapon groups and can offset lasers to avoid heat scale penalties? Sure you do. So why the red herring?

And of course all this ignores the fact that the 4BLC Stalker has to stagger-fire too, and that the Clan 'mech in this discussion has a significant advantage in range...