265 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Void Angel, on 14 June 2024 - 10:59 AM, said:

PS: "Robot CounterStrike?" Is that the new slur? I guess when Hawken went under, the professionally dissatisfied were really sad - kinda like MMO players when Hello Kitty Island Adventure folded. Thank goodness they have a new cheap generalization to fall back on!

At least it's more accurate than calling this game like CoD, a series which historically was known for minimizing skill through CoF over predictable recoil mechanics, random spawns and such to ensure lesser players could get surprise kills against better players, and for being more above moving duels/brawls than tactical engagements. The irony is that I think there's a distinct section of the Mechwarrior/Battletech fandom that pine for that sort of game, specifically the ones that want this game to be more Mech "sim" like.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 14 June 2024 - 11:12 AM.

[Void Angel]

It's just lazy thought. It's easy to glom onto a slur and ride it around like a child with a hobby horse. Really analyzing what's going on - and accepting input from other people about your thought - is legitimately hard, and unfortunately there are people who care enough to post, but not enough to bother.

[RockmachinE]

Papaspud, on 13 June 2024 - 05:55 AM, said:

The giant alphas have turned this game into hidewarrior, not sure how or if they can fix this, but it is now to the point- the game really isn't as fun. It is killing the game, at least from what I see.

I agree. TTK is too short. Its too easy to cripple a mech. MWO was more fun when combat lasted longer.

[Tarl Cabot]

RockmachinE, on 14 June 2024 - 12:03 PM, said:

I agree. TTK is too short. Its too easy to cripple a mech. MWO was more fun when combat lasted longer.

When Alphas were max out at 35-40dmg or 60dmg ? GR and 2ERPPC. jumping Highlanders and Atlas pilots crying while walking through opened country, saying it is not fair cause they are not able to get close without taking lots of damage. And before they introduced Ghost Heat, thus 4-6PPC Stalkers firing away Long before quirks such as Structural/Armor, the skill tree was universal. The only difference for players are the actual modules (quirks) that could be added. iirc, that did not include any type of structural or armor modules.

[feeWAIVER]

It's a little late to reinvent the wheel, but if I were designing a MechWarrior game, I would utilize all those empty firing groups.
Think of it, most people only use one or two, sometimes three firing groups.

I would lock most weapons types from firing simultaneously in firing groups, ie, you fire your lasers, then you fire your ac20, then you fire your missiles.
I would still leave Alpha Striking as an option, but that would be a separate button command outside of regular firing groups, and it would come with heat and cooldown penalties. Essentially making a chain fire situation more dmg/heat efficient than Alpha Striking.

Thus, having an assault that can boat more weapons would actually be a more skillful mech to play mechanically, it would require more hot hotkeys and more actions per minute.
This would lend itself to the new player experience, where new players typically start out playing medium mechs, and as they earn money they start to unlock larger mechs with more weapons but also require more skill to manage.

[Void Angel]

Tarl Cabot, on 14 June 2024 - 04:36 PM, said:

When Alphas were max out at 35-40dmg or 60dmg ? GR and 2ERPPC. jumping Highlanders and Atlas pilots crying while walking through opened country, saying it is not fair cause they are not able to get close without taking lots of damage. And before they introduced Ghost Heat, thus 4-6PPC Stalkers firing away Long before quirks such as Structural/Armor, the skill tree was universal. The only difference for players are the actual modules (quirks) that could be added. iirc, that did not include any type of structural or armor modules.

Man, that takes me back. It totally was unfair, too - some of the comp players felt attacked by the outcry (Jaeger comes to mind,) but when PGI held that first-ever official tournament... well. All of the top teams were poptarts, with nearly identical 'mech compositions. The one team that tried a counter-comp crashed and burned against the first poptart team they came up against.

[Tarl Cabot]

Weapons could also be setup with a Cone of Fire affected by heat bar and movement if one was to design a Mechwarrior game, and the mech scales should not be as far apart as they are now.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

feeWAIVER, on 14 June 2024 - 04:39 PM, said:

It's a little late to reinvent the wheel, but if I were designing a MechWarrior game, I would utilize all those empty firing groups.
Think of it, most people only use one or two, sometimes three firing groups.

I would lock most weapons types from firing simultaneously in firing groups, ie, you fire your lasers, then you fire your ac20, then you fire your missiles.
I would still leave Alpha Striking as an option, but that would be a separate button command outside of regular firing groups, and it would come with heat and cooldown penalties. Essentially making a chain fire situation more dmg/heat efficient than Alpha Striking.

Thus, having an assault that can boat more weapons would actually be a more skillful mech to play mechanically

People just wouldn't take assaults.

I legitimately don't understand the mentality against alphas. The game is unique in that it allows you to fire multiple weapons simultaneously and yet, people want mechs to be more like loadouts in typical FPS where you can only use one at a time and you use the other weapons to cover your gaps. Even if it wasn't alphas, it would be xpulse or dakka spam, or whatever the next weapon that kills them and makes them feel cheated until we are just running out in the open and brawling on every map.

[feeWAIVER]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 14 June 2024 - 06:29 PM, said:

People just wouldn't take assaults.

I legitimately don't understand the mentality against alphas. The game is unique in that it allows you to fire multiple weapons simultaneously and yet, people want mechs to be more like loadouts in typical FPS where you can only use one at a time and you use the other weapons to cover your gaps. Even if it wasn't alphas, it would be xpulse or dakka spam, or whatever the next weapon that kills them and makes them feel cheated until we are just running out in the open and brawling on every map.

Well, the idea is that if you have more weapons you shouldn't fire bigger, but fire more often.
You would still have the ability to alpha strike, but it would be more like a special attack, with cost/benefit aspect to it.
I imagine if the game only allowed people to pop off 20-30 dmg at a time, we wouldn't need so many armor quirks, and assault armor would still go a long way. It's all pie in the sky though, pure theory craft.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

feeWAIVER, on 14 June 2024 - 07:53 PM, said:

You would still have the ability to alpha strike, but it would be more like a special attack, with cost/benefit aspect to it.

Yeah, I understand that, but at that point it becomes a pretty pointless "attack" when the game just devolves into mass DPS. By defanging burst damage, you are just pushing the game into a DPS arms race, which is exactly what we saw with energy draw.

[Davegt27]

Tarl Cabot, on 14 June 2024 - 04:36 PM, said:

When Alphas were max out at 35-40dmg or 60dmg ? GR and 2ERPPC. jumping Highlanders and Atlas pilots crying while walking through opened country, saying it is not fair cause they are not able to get close without taking lots of damage. And before they introduced Ghost Heat, thus 4-6PPC Stalkers firing away Long before quirks such as Structural/Armor, the skill tree was universal. The only difference for players are the actual modules (quirks) that could be added. iirc, that did not include any type of structural or armor modules.

at one point Atlas was so week I would tell them to get to the back until needed

even though I did not own an Atlas I joined the campaign to buff the Atlas
I was just sick of seeing those things getting blown to bits

Edited by Davegt27, 22 June 2024 - 02:10 AM.

[Gasboy]

feeWAIVER, on 14 June 2024 - 04:39 PM, said:

It's a little late to reinvent the wheel, but if I were designing a MechWarrior game, I would utilize all those empty firing groups.
Think of it, most people only use one or two, sometimes three firing groups.

I would lock most weapons types from firing simultaneously in firing groups, ie, you fire your lasers, then you fire your ac20, then you fire your missiles.
I would still leave Alpha Striking as an option, but that would be a separate button command outside of regular firing groups, and it would come with heat and cooldown penalties. Essentially making a chain fire situation more dmg/heat efficient than Alpha Striking.

Thus, having an assault that can boat more weapons would actually be a more skillful mech to play mechanically, it would require more hot hotkeys and more actions per minute.
This would lend itself to the new player experience, where new players typically start out playing medium mechs, and as they earn money they start to unlock larger mechs with more weapons but also require more skill to manage.

Oof. No thanks. People would end up boating harder in order to 'alpha'. And are you going to buy everyone 6-button mice so they can fire weapons?

Actions per minute? Have you confused an FPS game with an RTS?

So your solution to alphas is stock builds? Everyone firing their LRM 10 until they get to ML range, then the small lasers or SRMs?

Yuck.

Tarl Cabot, on 14 June 2024 - 04:36 PM, said:

When Alphas were max out at 35-40dmg or 60dmg ? GR and 2ERPPC. jumping Highlanders and Atlas pilots crying while walking through opened country, saying it is not fair cause they are not able to get close without taking lots of damage. And before they introduced Ghost Heat, thus 4-6PPC Stalkers firing away Long before quirks such as Structural/Armor, the skill tree was universal. The only difference for players are the actual modules (quirks) that could be added. iirc, that did not include any type of structural or armor modules.

Hahahaha, sigh. Brings back memories.

[feeWAIVER]

Gasboy, on 14 June 2024 - 09:28 PM, said:

Actions per minute? Have you confused an FPS game with an RTS?

It's just more fun and rewarding to land four 20pt shots than one 80pt shot.
You're making more success checks on your ability to hit a target per minute.
It just makes for better gameplay, imo.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

feeWAIVER, on 14 June 2024 - 09:41 PM, said:

It's just more fun and rewarding to land four 20pt shots than one 80pt shot.
You're making more success checks on your ability to hit a target per minute.
It just makes for better gameplay, imo.

I don't think I understand why you can't have both no different than any traditional FPS where automatic and semi-automatic weapons just depend on the situation. However, given the conversation about Heavy Gauss on the cauldron feedback discord, I think a lot more people enjoy the power fantasy of one 80pt shot than you seem to think.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 14 June 2024 - 09:49 PM.

[Weeny Machine]

I liked the game more when alphas were around 35-40 damage. Close range was also a thing then and constantly moving to get a good position in in-fights was important. Don't forget that there were less mid to long range weapons then and velocity was lower.

Nowdays, it is peek-a-boo warrior. Vomit your big alpha and hide behind a rock next to your teammates.

ECM is actually even more important in this environment because if you can get off your mega super duper alpha before the other can react you have quite an advantge.

I remember how the Cauldron proclaimed they want to curb such high alphas. Well, great job, nothing happened...

[MechMaster059]

Yes, alpha is far too high and it's a serious problem that only gets worse as your tier level improves. This is the most striking difference I noticed reaching tier 2, just how violent matches are and how quickly they snowball. I have a rule of thumb now that if my team is up 2-0 or 3-1 I immediately leave my position and try and close with the enemy for fear of losing rating in a winning match due to not getting a chance to inflict enough damage to get a decent match score.

How do I "prove" alpha is too high? Easy, compare weapon stats to table-top values to show just how far out of whack MWO is considering slot cost and weights were kept aligned with TT:

ERLL Damage:
TT: 8
MWO: IS 9 / Clan 11
Why does the C-ERLL do 11 damage? There's no reason for it to hit that hard... for 1 ton less than IS.

Heavy Large Laser Damage:
TT: 16
MWO: 18
Why? Is 16 alpha not enough? LOL.

Binary Laser Cannon:
TT: 12
MWO: 18
Guess what folks, the BLC doesn't do 2x the damage of a LL in TT, it's only +50%. I used to think the -1 ton provided by the BLC wasn't a big deal. I was wrong. The -1 Ton, freeing up a laser slot for a 2nd smaller laser, and avoiding the ghost heat from firing 4 standard LLs compared to firing a pair of BLCs all combine to be a big deal for the BLC. It doesn't need to do 2x the damage of a LL to be good. I would lower it down to 16.

There is no concept of laser duration in TT. PGI could make laser duration 50% of total laser cycle time in MWO without breaking TT lore if they wanted to. I don't recommend that but what I do recommend is raising the current laser duration from ~20% of cycle time up to ~25% of cycle time. This would mean:

C-Heavy Large Laser Duration 1.45s --> 1.75s
C-Medium Laser Duration 1.05s --> 1.25s
IS-Medium Laser Duration 0.9s --> 1.125s
(Their cooldowns would be lowered by the same amount to keep total cycle time the same)

The IS laser duration reduction skills should be nerfed from -3.75% / point down to being the same as the Clan skills at -2.5% / point. They probably made the IS laser duration skills better to make their impact more noticeable on the shorter duration IS lasers but this misses the fact that their shorter duration makes any reduction more impactful in terms of PPFLD so there's no need for IS lasers to get better duration reduction skills.

As MWO currently stands, lasers can inflict a tremendous amount of PPFLD in less than 1.2s after quirks and laser duration reduction skills. This doesn't take much skill to do with lasers since they don't need to lead their target and instantly begin inflicting damage. These advantages should be counter-balanced by having to maintain aim over a significantly longer duration than ballistics.

Also, blue lasers have longer base range in MWO than TT and there's no concept of damage drop-off in TT(LOL!) which effectively gives a further boost of +50-66% in effective range for lasers in MWO. Blue lasers are OP as hell in MWO compared to TT.

=====

Removing spread from HAGs was a HORRENDOUS decision. The worst deviation from TT and worst balance change in MWO. I know what the Cluster Hits Table is in TT and it's plain as day that HAGs were intended to be sandblast weapons like MRMs. There is no other way to keep their high alpha, high DPS, relatively low heat, and low weight in check. As a result of removing spread, they were OP as hell for a time and all sorts of goofy changes like giving them splash (LOL!?), jacking up their heat (on Gauss!?), and increasing their cooldown had to be done. All of these wacky nerfs could be reverted simply by putting spread back on HAGs.

These things steal the job of standard Gauss.

=====

The penalties for losing a side torso are too severe. The potential loss of firepower and guaranteed loss of move speed is enough, but noooooo:

IS XL: YOU DIE
IS LE/Clan XL: You suffer a massive heat spike that can potentially kill you. If you don't die from it, your mech now has massively reduced heat capacity and heat dissipation. No, your mech is not "halved", your mech is more like "one thirded".

Recommended changes for losing a ST:
IS XL: -2 internal heat sinks, -20% heat capacity, -30% move speed
IS LE/Clan XL: -1 internal heat sinks, -10% heat capacity, -15% move speed

=====

All of these factors contribute to a violent, swiftly snowballing meta of heavy/assaults packed with high alpha / low duration weapons that cripple enemy mechs by popping side torsos and it's sad.

Edited by MechMaster059, 15 June 2024 - 10:15 AM.

[RockmachinE]

Tarl Cabot, on 14 June 2024 - 04:36 PM, said:

When Alphas were max out at 35-40dmg or 60dmg ? GR and 2ERPPC. jumping Highlanders and Atlas pilots crying while walking through opened country, saying it is not fair cause they are not able to get close without taking lots of damage. And before they introduced Ghost Heat, thus 4-6PPC Stalkers firing away Long before quirks such as Structural/Armor, the skill tree was universal. The only difference for players are the actual modules (quirks) that could be added. iirc, that did not include any type of structural or armor modules.

High alpha mechs existed, but TTK was way lower on average. Building Zombie CT mechs was actually viable back then.

Edited by RockmachinE, 15 June 2024 - 03:48 AM.

[Gasboy]

feeWAIVER, on 14 June 2024 - 09:41 PM, said:

It's just more fun and rewarding to land four 20pt shots than one 80pt shot.
You're making more success checks on your ability to hit a target per minute.
It just makes for better gameplay, imo.

It may be more fun in your mind, but judging from my experiences in MWO and a raft of other games, people like the big booms more than the trickle.

[Gasboy]

MechMaster059, on 15 June 2024 - 03:20 AM, said:

Yes, alpha is far too high and it's a serious problem that only gets worse as your tier level improves. This is the most striking difference I noticed reaching tier 2, just how violent matches are and how quickly they snowball. I have a rule of thumb now that if my team is up 2-0 or 3-1 I immediately leave my position and try and close with the enemy for fear of losing rating in a winning match due to not getting a chance to inflict enough damage to get a decent match score.

How do I "prove" alpha is too high? Easy, compare weapon stats to table-top values to show just how far out of whack MWO is considering slot cost and weights were kept aligned with TT:

ERLL Damage
TT: 8
MOW: IS 9 / Clan 11
Why does the C-ERLL do 11 damage? There's no reason for it to hit that hard... for 1 ton less than IS.

Heavy Large Laser Damage:
TT: 16
MWO: 18
Why? Is 16 alpha not enough? LOL.

Binary Laser Cannon:
TT: 12
MWO: 18
Guess what folks, the BLC doesn't do 2x the damage of a LL in TT, it's only +50%. I used to think the -1 ton provided by the BLC wasn't a big deal. I was wrong. The -1 Ton, freeing up a laser slot for a 2nd smaller laser, and avoiding the ghost heat from firing 4 standard LLs compared to firing a pair of BLCs all combine to be a big deal for the BLC. It doesn't need to do 2x the damage of a LL to be good. I would lower it down to 16.

There is no concept of laser duration in TT. PGI could make laser duration 50% of total laser cycle time in MWO without breaking TT lore if they wanted to. I don't recommend that but what I do recommend is raising the current laser duration from ~20% of cycle time up to ~25% of cycle time. This would mean:

C-Heavy Large Laser Duration 1.45s --> 1.75s
C-Medium Laser Duration 1.05s --> 1.25s
IS-Medium Laser Duration 0.9s --> 1.125s
(Their cooldowns would be lowered by the same amount to keep total cycle time the same)

The IS laser duration reduction skills should be nerfed from -3.75% / point down to being the same as the Clan skills at -2.5% / point. They probably made the IS laser duration skills better to make their impact more noticeable on the shorter duration IS lasers but this misses the fact that their shorter duration makes any reduction more impactful in terms of PPFLD so there's no need for IS lasers to get better duration reduction skills.

As MWO currently stands, lasers can inflict a tremendous amount of PPFLD in less than 1.2s after quirks and laser duration reduction skills. This doesn't take much skill to do with lasers since they don't need to lead their target and instantly begin inflicting damage. These advantages should be counter-balanced by having to maintain aim over a significantly longer duration than ballistics.

Also, blue lasers have longer base range in MWO than TT and there's no concept of damage drop-off in TT(LOL!) which effectively gives a further boost of +50-66% in effective range for lasers in MWO. Blue lasers are OP as hell in MWO compared to TT.

=====

Removing spread from HAGs was a HORRENDOUS decision. The worst deviation from TT and worst balance change in MWO. I know what the Cluster Hits Table is in TT and it's plain as day that HAGs were intended to be sandblast weapons like MRMs. There is no other way to keep their high alpha, high DPS, relatively low heat, and low weight in check. As a result of removing spread, they were OP as hell for a time and all sorts of goofy changes like giving them splash (LOL!?), jacking up their heat (on Gauss!?), and increasing their cooldown had to be done. All of these wacky nerfs could be reverted simply by putting spread back on HAGs.

These things steal the job of standard Gauss.

=====

The penalties for losing a side torso are too severe. The potential loss of firepower and guaranteed loss of move speed is enough, but noooooo:

IS XL: YOU DIE
IS LE/Clan XL: You suffer a massive heat spike that can potentially kill you. If you don't die from it, your mech now has massively reduced heat capacity and heat dissipation. No, your mech is not "halved", your mech is more like "one thirded".

Recommended changes for losing a ST:
IS XL: -2 internal heat sinks, -20% heat capacity, -30% move speed
IS LE/Clan XL: -1 internal heat sinks, -10% heat capacity, -15% move speed

=====

All of these factors contribute to a violent, swiftly snowballing meta of heavy/assaults packed with high alpha / low duration weapons that cripple enemy mechs by popping side torsos and it's sad.

I'll remind you that armor values in MWO are double that of Battletech, which you neglected to mention. Set damage and armor values to TT numbers and TTK will shrink precipitously. Your argument is basically defeated by this fact.

Your suggested changes to lasers would basically gut them as a weapon. Why not suggest that they simply be point and click instant damage like PPCs/ACs?

Edited by Gasboy, 15 June 2024 - 06:37 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Weeny Machine, on 14 June 2024 - 11:32 PM, said:

I liked the game more when alphas were around 35-40 damage. Close range was also a thing then and constantly moving to get a good position in in-fights was important. Don't forget that there were less mid to long range weapons then and velocity was lower.

The only time this was true was before HSR. HSR is what allowed poptarts to become viable and something to keep in mind, while some velocities were lower (Gauss was 2000m/s though), speeds of mechs were also slower.