265 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

East Indy, on 18 June 2024 - 11:39 AM, said:

That doesn't disqualify your opinion at all. Jaime Griesemer of Bungie's heyday is one of the smartest devs and he's famously terrible at Halo.

The hard truth of game design is that skilled players aren't necessarily good designers. In fact, they're more likely to be well-informed terrible designers because they're focused in and invested in the current state of the game, regardless of whether it's ideal.

This is definitely true, the unfortunate part if PGI has famously been both uninformed and uninspired. They don't know what they want the game to be like or how to achieve that even if they did. At that point I would take at least an informed bad designer as opposed to an uninformed bad designer.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 18 June 2024 - 12:03 PM.

[JediPanther]

Power creep has always been a problem. Crapduln just speed it up with the focus on assults and boating more and more. TTB put out a video of a triple digit alpha strike mech. Does it mean the thing is viable? Sure once every one copies it because the game lets them. Does it make the game even less fun for any mech not an assault? Sure it does.

[Void Angel]

You should probably notice that TTB makes a lot of high-alpha builds; they're not all dominating Quickplay.

[The6thMessenger]

East Indy, on 18 June 2024 - 11:39 AM, said:

The hard truth of game design is that skilled players aren't necessarily good designers. In fact, they're more likely to be well-informed terrible designers because they're focused in and invested in the current state of the game, regardless of whether it's ideal.

^This

Gulag Cauldron does good, but as the main beneficiaries of that which they control, surely there's a conflict of interest, no? For them to uphold only what they would like, and ultimately just enforce the playstyle that which they deem fit. I mean look at their entries of late -- constant hardpoint-inflation, damage power-creep, the works.

They are comp-players, their perspective of balance ultimately revolves in comp and high-skill. Imagine if we take it a step further, and have the balance instead hinged against reflex-perfect computer AI, they'd probably complain -- missing the point that, to the lower-skilled masses, you might as well be the computer-AI.

Reminds me of a quote:

"this is why mankind cannot be ruled by the post-humans. Your concerns are not those of ordinary men, who must eat and sleep and love and fear and, ultimately….die, all without ever knowing the kind of immortality you so crave." - Malcador the Sigilite

IIRC, one of the forum mods that is of the cauldron said that the Cauldron was "Democratic", by that meaning they get a vote in their group to which what to do, as if that's some automatic good. But pray tell, what kind of leadership is a small group leading the masses? Pretty sure that's "Aristocracy".

Void Angel, on 18 June 2024 - 01:56 PM, said:

You should probably notice that TTB makes a lot of high-alpha builds; they're not all dominating Quickplay.

Speaks really more about the player, than the builds. Then again, the youtubers only really publish highlight reels, so can't really be that valid.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 18 June 2024 - 05:49 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Not all of them are comp players, there are a couple that do just solo queue. That said, does it really matter? A full-blown game designer isn't going to be able to do anything because of the whole limitation of no engineering support and PGI never had a true vision for MWO anyway so why not just maintain some sort of status quo? This game isn't suddenly going to take back off all the sudden and become worth the investment.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 18 June 2024 - 05:49 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 18 June 2024 - 05:48 PM, said:

Not all of them are comp players, there are a couple that do just solo queue. That said, does it really matter?

Well for me, I'd rather not act as if they are just correct and excempt from criticism, and incapable of bad choices, merely by their stature.

Quicksilver Aberration, on 18 June 2024 - 05:48 PM, said:

why not just maintain some sort of status quo? This game isn't suddenly going to take back off all the sudden and become worth the investment.

You mean have the game made to cater the whales, that pay for it? I mean sure. It's probably not gonna attract new players any time soon; meanwhile the ones that work on it surely are more invested in it. So how dare we change THEIR game? And ruin THEIR fun.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 18 June 2024 - 06:04 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 18 June 2024 - 05:57 PM, said:

Well for me, I'd rather not act as if they are just correct and exempt from criticism, and incapable of bad choices, merely by their stature.

Oh they aren't able to escape criticism, but this isn't an ideal situation either. :shrug: I think a lot is made over nothing TBH.

The6thMessenger, on 18 June 2024 - 05:57 PM, said:

You mean have the game made to cater the whales, that pay for it? I mean sure. It's probably not gonna attract new players any time soon; meanwhile the ones that work on it surely are more invested in it. So how dare we change THEIR game?

What, you don't think some comp players are whales (cuz I am)? You thinking paying money should buy you a larger voice? I mean I don't think there is a good scenario here, but I would expect the most out of the people that can at least play the game short of them bringing in a designer (and well we had those before from PGI and yeah.....)

That said, if Jarl's is accurate, seems like we get a steady trickle of new players and I know I've seen some names that I haven't seen in a long time showing up in some PUGs so :shrug:. I mean PGI has admitted to being surprised this game is still around and the bleeding has at least slowed so something is clearly working out despite things.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 18 June 2024 - 06:08 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 18 June 2024 - 06:04 PM, said:

Oh they aren't able to escape criticism, but this isn't an ideal situation either. :shrug: I think a lot is made over nothing TBH.

I think it's not that they can escape criticism, but being the ones that hold the power they have the luxury to just ignore it, as if it was the very "nothing" you assume things to be. Supposed that they did honestly deem it so, and not just ignored it -- would we be able to tell the difference?

But do you think damage-creep is "nothing", hardpoint-inflation is "nothing", god-quirking trend is "nothing"? Not really an assumption, but indeed a question.

Quicksilver Aberration, on 18 June 2024 - 06:04 PM, said:

What, you don't think some comp players are whales (cuz I am)? You thinking paying money should buy you a larger voice? I mean I don't think there is a good scenario here, but I would expect the most out of the people that can at least play the game short of them bringing in a designer (and well we had those before from PGI and yeah.....)

Well, bussiness side of things, you do have to cater to those that pay for your product, else they won't pay for it anymore. Phrase "vote with your wallet" comes to mind.

So as someone who doesn't really pay for MWO, my purchases only had been K9, Kaiju, and the Hashke-Abbadon pack -- and no more, means I'm not valuable to keep anymore.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 18 June 2024 - 06:20 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 18 June 2024 - 06:17 PM, said:

I think it's not that they can escape criticism, but being the ones that hold the power they have the luxury to just ignore it, as if it was the very "nothing" you assume things to be. Supposed that they did honestly deem it so, and not just ignored it -- would we be able to tell the difference?

But do you think damage-creep is "nothing", hardpoint-inflation is "nothing", god-quirking trend is "nothing"? Not really an assumption, but indeed a question.

It's not nothing, but it's a trend that started well before the Cauldron became a thing, however those aren't even the biggest pieces of power creep to hit the game so again, I feel like a lot is being made about nothing here. Hell I find the MASC rework and 2018 DHS changes more problematic than anything that's been done recently. I mean if you really want to talk about damage-creep, look no further than the 2018 DHS changes which caused that creep to happen in the first place.

[Void Angel]

Players are content; so if you're not just doing Plarium thing and running a revolving circus of suckers brought in by advertising to feed said whales, you have to balance for everyone. Nobody who pays a lot of money for MWO wants to just bash robots together with the few dozen other people who paid as much; even if MWO was pay to win, those players who bought their skills in a 'mech pack would still want someone to use that power on.

This all means that player experience matters at all levels - and over the years I've found that a lot of the time when people say "well, they've got to satisfy the whales," it's just been a cheap accusation to throw at the devs over this change they dislike, or that mechanic they want "fixed" to suit their ideas.

Quicksilver Aberration, on 18 June 2024 - 06:26 PM, said:

It's not nothing, but it's a trend that started well before the Cauldron became a thing, however those aren't even the biggest pieces of power creep to hit the game so again, I feel like a lot is being made about nothing here. Hell I find the MASC rework and 2018 DHS changes more problematic than anything that's been done recently. I mean if you really want to talk about damage-creep, look no further than the 2018 DHS changes which caused that creep to happen in the first place.

Wait, what'd they do in 2018? I was inactive for most of that year...

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 18 June 2024 - 06:26 PM, said:

It's not nothing, but ... I feel like a lot is being made about nothing here.

Void Angel, on 18 June 2024 - 06:31 PM, said:

Players are content; so if you're not just doing Plarium thing and running a revolving circus of suckers brought in by advertising to feed said whales, you have to balance for everyone. Nobody who pays a lot of money for MWO wants to just bash robots together with the few dozen other people who paid as much; even if MWO was pay to win, those players who bought their skills in a 'mech pack would still want someone to use that power on.

This all means that player experience matters at all levels - and over the years I've found that a lot of the time when people say "well, they've got to satisfy the whales," it's just been a cheap accusation to throw at the devs over this change they dislike, or that mechanic they want "fixed" to suit their ideas.

Well, I don't like the sentiment of "Satisfy the whales" either, but realistically it's probably about that, or will become about that.

I would love nothing more to have the game balanced, and account for different player skill. But IIRC, in my interaction with comp, when I pitched different balance with regards to different environment, to which they said that "there's no difference in gameplay between low skill and high skill" -- or roughly in that capacity, seems to me that they don't really care. And since they are the ones running the show now...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Void Angel, on 18 June 2024 - 06:31 PM, said:

Wait, what'd they do in 2018? I was inactive for most of that year...

It was around the time of the stock WC2018 iirc, but they did a PTS to yet again "reign in alphas" and the end result: external DHS capacity gets nerfed but dissipation is made equivalent to internal (1.4 or 1.5 to 2.2, so a ~50% increase). The end result is a lot more damage volume in the game, mechs that boated lots of DHS saw a large increase in their sustained DPS and the disparity between Clan and IS got wider as did the difference in firepower between lights and assaults.

The6thMessenger, on 18 June 2024 - 06:39 PM, said:

I would love nothing more to have the game balanced, and account for different player skill. But IIRC, in my interaction with comp, when I pitched different balance with regards to different environment, to which they said that "there's no difference in gameplay between low skill and high skill" -- or roughly in that capacity, seems to me that they don't really care. And since they are the ones running the show now...

If this were true, we wouldn't have gotten splash added to HAGs honestly and there would be less hesitation to buff Heavy Gauss. I mean over half the Cauldron barely posts in that discord if at all.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 18 June 2024 - 07:12 PM.

[Void Angel]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 18 June 2024 - 07:09 PM, said:

It was around the time of the stock WC2018 iirc, but they did a PTS to yet again "reign in alphas" and the end result: external DHS capacity gets nerfed but dissipation is made equivalent to internal (1.4 or 1.5 to 2.2, so a ~50% increase). The end result is a lot more damage volume in the game, mechs that boated lots of DHS saw a large increase in their sustained DPS and the disparity between Clan and IS got wider as did the difference in firepower between lights and assaults.

Oooh. Well, at least I don't have to explain "true doubles" to the newbies any more! I've run some really heat-intensive builds since I got back, and it really does seem like boating 15 lasers is easier than it should be...

[Void Angel]

The6thMessenger, on 18 June 2024 - 06:39 PM, said:

Well, I don't like the sentiment of "Satisfy the whales" either, but realistically it's probably about that, or will become about that.

Not actually; more specifically, it will not actually turn into paid privilege if people familiar with game design are involved. It's because players are content - so you need players in the game. A game like this is a textbook example of economy of scale, so unless the players are somehow all playing the game and never spending money, to the point you're not making a profit, more players is better. That means that it's beneficial financially for a company to attract as many players as it can - and the same applies to keeping those players, too.

Game decisions made to appease some minority - any minority - are a nailgun to the foot of longterm health, and I think PGI realizes this. We certainly explained it to them when IGP wanted pay-to-win consumables.

[Mad Mech]

Mechwarrior Subscription Levels:

Free To Play:
- 100% free gameplay with access to all game modes.
- Limted to 12 pre-seloected trial mechs; 3 from each weight class.
- Trial mechs cannot be modified and are taken into each game-as is.

Purcased Mechs:
- All of the benefits of "Free To Play", plus:
- Players may purchase mechs with MC.
- Purchased mechs may be modified by the player and used at any time.

Subscription:
- All of the benefits of "Purchased Mechs", plus:
- Players may use and modify any of the availble mechs.
- 500 MC per month; used to purchase mechs. Purchased mechs are available even when the subscription ends.




If they had done something like this from the start, I wonder what the game would have been like today. Revenue could have come from selling subcriptions, MC, colors, patterns, decals, etc., instead of selling over-powered "mech packs" that get nerfed as soon as the next overpowerd "mech pack" is ready for sale. Or.. maybe they did try that and the revenue just wasn't enough.

A battlefield with mostly stock mechs and a few custom modified mechs (you'd have to limit the overpowered boating we see today) would have been a cool thing to see; much more teamwork tactics and weapon management strategy. Today it feels like 24 Mike Tysons running around swinging for the fences.

One the the biggest mistake (imo) was giving away MC during events. But with free MC, there's abolutley no reason for me to buy MC with real money anymore (haven't bought MC in yeeears). Events give about 12-15k MC every year which is more than enough to grab several top-tier mechs that just came off the ultra mech-pack lists without spending a dime. I might have paid for MC, colors, patterns, and decals, but If you treat your product like it has no value, your customers do the same.

Seems like the only thing left to sell is over-powered mechs with mega-shot alphas.

Edited by Mad Mech, 20 June 2024 - 07:21 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mad Mech, on 20 June 2024 - 05:59 PM, said:

If they had done something like this from the start, I wonder what the game would have been like today.

It'd be dead, because pay-walling customization is stupid. Even in 2013/2014 the general wisdom that for F2P you should really only do cosmetics was prevailing, publishers and business higher ups just hadn't seen enough failures to prove to them otherwise.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 20 June 2024 - 07:30 PM.

[Void Angel]

League of legends is still going strong, and part of its popularity from the beginning was that you didn't have to pay a dime if you didn't want to. The only things you had to pay for were cosmetics, and you could spend money optionally to skip the grind and buy a new champion. Nobody wanted this game to be a paid tier system, and putting up that barrier to entry would have irreparably harmed the game. The player base was adamantly opposed to pay to win schemes from the get-go. We lit the forums on fire when IGP pressured them into releasing MC consumables that were pay to win.

The game isn't budgeted for software engineering because the player base isn't big enough to support that money being spent on the game right now - it's a "health of the game" issue, not a "problem" with its initial monetization scheme.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Void Angel, on 20 June 2024 - 09:20 PM, said:

The game isn't budgeted for software engineering because the player base isn't big enough to support that money being spent on the game right now - it's a "health of the game" issue, not a "problem" with its initial monetization scheme.

I mean that said, it did have a problem with the monetization scheme because mechs were the biggest selling item, and PGI fell for the short term windfall without seeming to second guess the sustainability of it (I mean even with Legends, there's a reason so many have been assaults....).

[LordNothing]

im not doing another f2p. nope. not worth it. i dont care if its my #1 franchise or not. not doing a subsciption either. you want to sell me a game, sell me a whole game. cash on the barrel head.

[Void Angel]

LordNothing, on 21 June 2024 - 04:59 PM, said:

im not doing another f2p. nope. not worth it. i dont care if its my #1 franchise or not. not doing a subsciption either. you want to sell me a game, sell me a whole game. cash on the barrel head.

Clans is coming out soon. =) I'm looking forward to it.

Quicksilver Aberration, on 20 June 2024 - 10:34 PM, said:

I mean that said, it did have a problem with the monetization scheme because mechs were the biggest selling item, and PGI fell for the short term windfall without seeming to second guess the sustainability of it (I mean even with Legends, there's a reason so many have been assaults....).

I think that's true, now that you mention it. My thinking is more that the problem wasn't that they didn't go to a phone-game subscription scheme - their long-term monetization still has a foreseeable soft limit of sustainability. But, I think they counted on Faction Warfare to be "endgame" content, without really having a good plan for that. I'm always hesitant to be critical when I know I don't have access to their internal reasoning, but Faction Warfare obviously failed, and there's only so many 'mechs you can buy before you end up with more than you can use, unless you're one of the fanatic collectors.

Edited by Void Angel, 21 June 2024 - 05:26 PM.