45 replies to this topic

[LordNothing]

dps is a lot more workable on fast mechs than slow ones. but id still rather beam/xpulse/mg than rac. and that's saying something because i rarely use any of those anymore. especially now that i have light ppfld weapons to choose from.

Edited by LordNothing, 20 August 2024 - 08:02 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LordNothing, on 20 August 2024 - 08:00 AM, said:

but id still rather beam/xpulse/mg than rac.

While I agree, homogenizing weapons shouldn't be the answer, though I would say the spinup isn't what kills the weapon compared to those options, it's the fact it is a hitscan vs projectile which hampers its versatility (ie anti-light, not just farming big mechs). Which is true of dakka in general.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 20 August 2024 - 06:20 PM.

[Drenzul]

RAC isn't a bad weapon... just it needs a well supported mech to use well, which makes it kinda niche.

Comparing it to beams... well the crippling effect of the screen shake + blinding effect make it just as deadly
and far more sustainable given the heat difference. I think the spin-up at least gives the enemy a chance to assess
what is going on before getting the constant stream of blinding explosions in their face.

I wouldn't object to it getting a slight buff, but I think the spin-up should stay. Or the explosion size gets nerfed when the spin-up is removed.

[DarkBazerker]

Not that a have a dog in this race but, I rather them reduce the range on racs first. Burst fire is interesting but not sure how that would play out.

[LordNothing]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 20 August 2024 - 06:20 PM, said:

While I agree, homogenizing weapons shouldn't be the answer, though I would say the spinup isn't what kills the weapon compared to those options, it's the fact it is a hitscan vs projectile which hampers its versatility (ie anti-light, not just farming big mechs). Which is true of dakka in general.

no laser has charge. yet. (hint hint cauldron. bombast).

and no im not advocating homogenizing anything, i just want a gimp mechanic removed from a weapon that really doesn't need it.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LordNothing, on 21 August 2024 - 08:09 AM, said:

no laser has charge. yet. (hint hint cauldron. bombast).

They can't because of code unfortunately (charge-up is tied to ballistics, as is ammo), several of them really wanted a laser like the spartan laser from Halo as do I (yeonne from days past suggested that's what PPCs really should be, and I like the concept at least).

Regardless, I don't think the spin-up is really what gimps it since it is hardly the only one that is a bit gimped (looking at you dakka), at least when facing tougher opponents and not just farming.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 21 August 2024 - 08:25 AM.

[LordNothing]

Drenzul, on 21 August 2024 - 06:17 AM, said:

RAC isn't a bad weapon... just it needs a well supported mech to use well, which makes it kinda niche.

Comparing it to beams... well the crippling effect of the screen shake + blinding effect make it just as deadly
and far more sustainable given the heat difference. I think the spin-up at least gives the enemy a chance to assess
what is going on before getting the constant stream of blinding explosions in their face.

I wouldn't object to it getting a slight buff, but I think the spin-up should stay. Or the explosion size gets nerfed when the spin-up is removed.

try walking into the shots rather than backing away. that usually makes it easier to see. this puts the bitmaps behind the clipping plane so they dont get rendered, at least the ones that would be directly in your face. also throw in a horizontal component to force them to lead.

thing is the blindness goes both ways. unless youve taken steps to turn off all the things using user.cfg (considered acceptable) or even editing the bitmaps (probably banable offense). hard to make precision shots with so much visual noise in the way.

Edited by LordNothing, 21 August 2024 - 08:36 AM.

[Denegamez]

VaelophisNyx, on 13 August 2024 - 04:36 PM, said:

• Rotary weapons IRL do not spin up. If they are spinning, there are projectiles coming out OR they are 100% empty on ammo. The rotary mechanism and the belt feeder are intrinsically linked to save on complexity, size, and weigh

and i stopped reading .. demonstrably false premise used here ( electrically driven rotary weaponry has been around since 1890) .. sorta negates the whole idea IMO

Edited by Denegamez, 23 August 2024 - 12:22 AM.

[Samara 6J]

LordNothing, on 21 August 2024 - 08:34 AM, said:

thing is the blindness goes both ways.

You can mitigate that via mech geometry - as an example, I run an Anni 2A with RAC2s in the arms, and they're so far below the cockpit that the flash isn't blinding.

[LordNothing]

Denegamez, on 23 August 2024 - 12:20 AM, said:

and i stopped reading .. demonstrably false premise used here ( electrically driven rotary weaponry has been around since 1890) .. sorta negates the whole idea IMO

hes not entirely wrong, merely imprecise.


firing happens every time a round passes the firing position when a cam strikes the firing pin at the end of that barrel's breach. he is right about the gun and ammo feed being mechanically linked (this can be linkless, chain or belt fed, with linkless being the most complex and least jam prone, og gatling used a large clip). electric is not the only power source, a-10 uses its hydraulic system to power the avenger (though im not sure if the pumps for said hydraulic system are electric or driven by the pto on the apu, or integrated into it). og gatling gun was hand cranked.

russian weapons like to have a gas powered system where the thrust comes from the powder itself using a muzzel break and only require a crude belt feed, but does require a break to stop rotation, less it spew all its ammo and probibly overheat the gun to the point where you need to replace the barrels. still i really like this engineering solution even if it seems a bit nuts. i guess the idea is when you find yourself in a dog fight you would have already endured some battle damage and you wanted a gun that would just work by itself without complex support systems. a-10 aint firing without its hydraulics.

the usual arguments miss a couple points, guns spin up imperceptibly fast, remember it only has to turn 1/nth of a turn (where n is the number of barrels) to fire a round. its spinning down the long axis, which means the amount of power to actually spin the barrels is insignificant compared to the power it actually gets. you aren't waiting half a second to spin up nor are you free spinning the barrels without firing while there is ammo in the gun. i think the avenger does let you disengage the firing cam so you can pass rounds through the gun without firing, but this feature is for reloading, as well as extracting brass and unused rounds from the gun. so this feature is only ever used by ground crews.

[Sephlock]

Counterpoint: RACs are super fun and not optimal, therefore certain people just hate them and want them gimped, and they'll never ever allow this.

Quicksilver Aberration, on 19 August 2024 - 08:42 AM, said:

I mean spin up is similar to Gauss charge

[LordNothing]

some people do like the racs because it can be seen as anti-meta. bit i find its easily defeated by getting into cover and trading during the spinup delay. it might hit you for abit after you have dumped 60 and are backing into cover. take even the most rac happy build, did you do 60? i think not. would rather it come off with some damage in that exchange. its a weapon for punishing out of position low skilled players in the open and thats pretty much its only function. needs to do more.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LordNothing, on 23 August 2024 - 04:40 PM, said:

its a weapon for punishing out of position low skilled players in the open and thats pretty much its only function. needs to do more.

I mean this is the point of most "sustained" DPS weapons like AC5 boats, etc. Punish people out of position like charging in the open or caught during a rotation. Otherwise you are just talking about different flavors of burst damage, which is fine, it's why I think it should get pushed more into burst territory (able to do damage faster, but even less sustained damage).

FWIW, just like Gauss I try to precharge before I poke to minimize the whole spinup delay issue.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 23 August 2024 - 05:24 PM.

[Besh]

LordNothing, on 23 August 2024 - 04:40 PM, said:

some people do like the racs because it can be seen as anti-meta. bit i find its easily defeated by getting into cover and trading during the spinup delay. it might hit you for abit after you have dumped 60 and are backing into cover. take even the most rac happy build, did you do 60? i think not. would rather it come off with some damage in that exchange. its a weapon for punishing out of position low skilled players in the open and thats pretty much its only function. needs to do more.

I like shooting through all the explosions in front of my Face . Makes many RAC shooters reconsider staring at me rather quickly...seems they are not much used to someone not running away in a panic cos of the Bulletstream, but simply twisting and shotting them to THEIR face (torso) again .

Its doable, and if I can do it, it cant be that hard .

[LordNothing]

Besh, on 24 August 2024 - 08:53 AM, said:

I like shooting through all the explosions in front of my Face . Makes many RAC shooters reconsider staring at me rather quickly...seems they are not much used to someone not running away in a panic cos of the Bulletstream, but simply twisting and shotting them to THEIR face (torso) again .

Its doable, and if I can do it, it cant be that hard .

you usually have time for a couple alphas on way to cover, just be sure your override is on. sometimes thats all you need. walking into the shots reduces blinding effect.

Edited by LordNothing, 24 August 2024 - 11:32 AM.

[kalashnikity]

"No RAC Spin-Up" would be a heck of a quirk to add to a certain handful of mechs.

Such as those two new LAMS.

Get my GAU-8 on.

[kalashnikity]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 21 August 2024 - 08:24 AM, said:

They can't because of code unfortunately (charge-up is tied to ballistics, as is ammo), several of them really wanted a laser like the spartan laser from Halo as do I (yeonne from days past suggested that's what PPCs really should be, and I like the concept at least).

Regardless, I don't think the spin-up is really what gimps it since it is hardly the only one that is a bit gimped (looking at you dakka), at least when facing tougher opponents and not just farming.

The Fusion Cannon from Descent (1994 FPS video game) was great. Longer your charged it the stronger it got, but IIRC it started to vibrate and move your targeting reticle a bit randomly making it harder to shoot accurately at max charge.

I really don't see the problem, a little code copy pasting and file name editing should fix whatever problems there are with "we can't put ballistic traits on energy weapons", this isn't rocket surgery.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

kalashnikity, on 27 August 2024 - 06:13 PM, said:

I really don't see the problem, a little code copy pasting and file name editing should fix whatever problems there are with "we can't put ballistic traits on energy weapons", this isn't rocket surgery.

Spoken like someone who doesn't know anything about coding.

[VeeOt Dragon]

yeah as much as we would all like this or that feature we have to keep in mind that the coding for MWO is patched together mess and that there are very few people these days that even know how to code for the old version of Cry Engine its based on. add to that the lack of personnel and the obvious biases against certain weapon systems of those that they did put in charge of balancing and you can understand the state of things.

[LordNothing]

kalashnikity, on 27 August 2024 - 05:58 PM, said:

"No RAC Spin-Up" would be a heck of a quirk to add to a certain handful of mechs.

Such as those two new LAMS.

Get my GAU-8 on.

you do realize in the battletech universe, thats a machine gun.