63 replies to this topic

[Battlemaster56]

1453 R, on 09 September 2024 - 10:46 AM, said:

Y'know, that's a fair point. If they're making new 'Mechs - and TiY0s said they're doing exactly that, one new Fatty chassis and one new Fasty chassis - and we presume they're asset conversions from the new MW game like the incredibly stupid hatchetless MWO "Hatchetman"...both new chassis have a strong likelihood of being Clan machines, rather than yet more weird niche IS crap. I don't know tabletop well enough to know if there's any prominent Smoke Jaguar machines we don't already have (side note: why are we playing the objectively worst clan in MW5:C? Nobody likes the Jaguars >_>), nor am I recalling any significant holes in the current roster of Clan 'Mechs. That said, co-op PvE campaign play is an entirely different beast than MWO, who knows what 'mechs might suddenly become a good idea in that system. Are we getting a Naga with its Arrow batteries replaced with excessive LRM counts in MWO because the Artillery Fatty makes sense in MW5:C? Who knows?

https://www.sarna.ne...ki/Iron_Cheetah Iron Cheetah seems like the best choice to represent the Smoke Jaguar's omni assault mech and it's easy tomodel since it's basically a dire wolf but with xl 400 and with endo and ferro so it's not slow and decently heat sinked from reading the wiki.

[VeeOt Dragon]

i wouldn't mind seeing the Rakshasa (IS) and the Mad Cat mk3 (ie Timberwolf mk3, Clan). though i am ot sure on how many variants the Rakshasa has.

[Battlemaster56]

Rakshasa have 4 variants 3 is readily available with one using mml's

[colt]

Still waiting to see cigar small laser wielding 95 ton Hauptmann Assault OmniMech to show up. I totally support seeing the Devastator come in and join the party.

[Tiy0s]

I've been asked a lot about what mechs could happen, thoughts about Sunder, Hauptmann, Hellcat, Iron Cheetah, etc. I'll just summarize all the answers I've been given here.

Any mech we make has to be eligible for use in our active games, which in this case would be MW5 Clans and MWO. MWO is very loose, can pretty much add whatever as long as it's a worthwhile addition. Clans is a lot more strict. A mech that needs to be available by the start of the invasion and a clan mech. I know people want a lot of IS mechs like the Devastator, Hauptmann, Sunder, Wasp, Stinger, etc but a big thing to keep in mind is that Clans is a game where you play Clan mechs only. I would be incredibly hard pressed to try to convince leadership to greenlight the creation of a mech that you can't even use in our future flagship game. The Bullshark is a one off because I took that mech entirely upon myself and made it. That's not something that would happen again, realistically.

I love the enthusiasm, I know everyone has their favorite mech from previous games that they're just dying to see. Rather than just say "no" and leave it at that, I want to level with you guys and explain why we're choosing what we're choosing. It's not that we're ignoring player wishes, more that there's a lot more constraints than most people are aware of.

On a personal note, these next comments are not the official stance at everyone at PGI but more the stance and arguments I take when we discuss future mechs among the mech design team. There are a lot of mechs that win for nostalgia such as the Wasp, Stinger, Ostroc, etc that players would love to see upon announcement. But that love would quickly sour into extreme disappointment when they play the mechs in game and they fall incredibly short. Wasp and Stinger bring nothing new to the table when it comes to hardpoints, the Spider does everything they do. The Hauptmann has a locked standard engine which hurts a lot in IS assaults. The Devastator would be a good addition, it's kind of like a 100 ton Warhammer. But now that the Atlas Warlord exists it's kind of less unique? It's a really common issue, even inside PGI sometimes, to go "oh my goodness I love this mech it's going to be great" but then when you look at it on paper it falls incredibly short.

Or there are some mechs, like the Grizzly, who fall short in reputation but then once you build it you realize it's actually a monster in a format with mechlab.

[1453 R]

Tiy0s, on 11 September 2024 - 11:04 AM, said:

I've been asked a lot about what mechs could happen, thoughts about Sunder, Hauptmann, Hellcat, Iron Cheetah, etc. I'll just summarize all the answers I've been given here.

Any mech we make has to be eligible for use in our active games, which in this case would be MW5 Clans and MWO. MWO is very loose, can pretty much add whatever as long as it's a worthwhile addition. Clans is a lot more strict. A mech that needs to be available by the start of the invasion and a clan mech. I know people want a lot of IS mechs like the Devastator, Hauptmann, Sunder, Wasp, Stinger, etc but a big thing to keep in mind is that Clans is a game where you play Clan mechs only. I would be incredibly hard pressed to try to convince leadership to greenlight the creation of a mech that you can't even use in our future flagship game. The Bullshark is a one off because I took that mech entirely upon myself and made it. That's not something that would happen again, realistically.

I love the enthusiasm, I know everyone has their favorite mech from previous games that they're just dying to see. Rather than just say "no" and leave it at that, I want to level with you guys and explain why we're choosing what we're choosing. It's not that we're ignoring player wishes, more that there's a lot more constraints than most people are aware of.

On a personal note, these next comments are not the official stance at everyone at PGI but more the stance and arguments I take when we discuss future mechs among the mech design team. There are a lot of mechs that win for nostalgia such as the Wasp, Stinger, Ostroc, etc that players would love to see upon announcement. But that love would quickly sour into extreme disappointment when they play the mechs in game and they fall incredibly short. Wasp and Stinger bring nothing new to the table when it comes to hardpoints, the Spider does everything they do. The Hauptmann has a locked standard engine which hurts a lot in IS assaults. The Devastator would be a good addition, it's kind of like a 100 ton Warhammer. But now that the Atlas Warlord exists it's kind of less unique? It's a really common issue, even inside PGI sometimes, to go "oh my goodness I love this mech it's going to be great" but then when you look at it on paper it falls incredibly short.

Or there are some mechs, like the Grizzly, who fall short in reputation but then once you build it you realize it's actually a monster in a format with mechlab.

I just installed/got into playing MechWarrior 5 with my brother, and some of those questions actually came up. Like, he asked "Where's the Wasps and Stingers at?" We talked for a few minutes and came to the same conclusion - there is nothing a Wasp or Stinger add to the game that a Spider doesn't cover. The Spider occupies the same role of "small, barely-armed early-game goomba the Hero can beat up on with very little real risk to their own big stonkoff starter 'Mech", while actually having unique traits that give it a(n admittedly small) role in a player-led lance. It was the same with HBS' game - there's no need for Wasps or Stingers in a game that includes the Spider.

I like that you mention the idea of nostalgia turning into disappointment with many of these old 'Mechs if they made it into MWO. Wasps, Stingers, and Ostrocs simply do not bring anything worthwhile to the table, and trying to play what are kinna specifically intended to be list filler in TT and nameless faceless Fodder Enemies in campaign play as a MWO duelist would just...not work out for anyone. They would need absolutely unacceptable levels of hardpoint bloat and SuperMegaUltraQuirking, which would in turn do nothing but invalidate existing MWO 'Mechs and unfairly remove them from the roster. Like, the level of quirking required to make a Wasp or Stinger relevant would mean there's no much point in playing a Locust or Flea anymore, and that ain't fair to people who've invested a lot into those 'Mechs.

Also: thank you for undertaking the Bullshark. The way you say that 'Mech came into being, I imagine that was a whole lot of unpaid personal time that went into giving everybody here a new toy to play with.

[Battlemaster56]

If that the case then their no point adding new mechs in general, if other mechs can do it and it's a waste of resources, and I disagree with such a notion, just because the spider does the same thing as the wasp and Stinger doesn't invalidate them be candidates especially for 20 ton spot which is anemic of options that isn't the Locust pb and flea.

At this point in the game life we have a ton of mechs that overlap each other to the point it's just cosmetic with a few little quirks to separate one another.

[1453 R]

Battlemaster56, on 12 September 2024 - 10:03 AM, said:

If that the case then their no point adding new mechs in general, if other mechs can do it and it's a waste of resources, and I disagree with such a notion, just because the spider does the same thing as the wasp and Stinger doesn't invalidate them be candidates especially for 20 ton spot which is anemic of options that isn't the Locust pb and flea.

At this point in the game life we have a ton of mechs that overlap each other to the point it's just cosmetic with a few little quirks to separate one another.

Would you spend forty dollars on a Wasp/Stinger pack?

Furthermore, would you expect a large majority of MWO players to spend money on a Wasp/Stinger pack?

I am a longtime BattleTech fangirl, I have been enjoying the IP since the time my parents bought me MechWarrior 2 as my very first video game. Spent my entire childhood buried in BattleTech novels, reading TROs with stats I couldn't understand but drawings and fluff I loved to read, making 'Mechs out of my K'Nex toys, and otherwise being an absolute 'Mech nut. I'm as big a fan as most any TT diehard, and I'm telling you I really could not care less about Wasps and Stingers existing in MWO and would not bother with a Wasp/Stinger combo pack. Regardless of the lore fluffery behind them being super common, those two 'mechs are boring. They're mook NPC grunts nobody cares about in the books, they're disposable list filler in the TT rules, and they're a waste of time and effort in the video games.

Light 'Mechs in general already sell poorly compared to outsized chungus crap like the Stone Rhino. If you consistently make a thing that doesn't sell, eventually your product will fail. Absolutely nobody - nobody - except 'Mech Dads is going to buy a Wasp/Stinger pack, and not even all 'Mech Dads. Just the IntroTech purists. You're asking them to devote resources to creating two entire 'Mechs - and neither the Wasp nor the Stinger are any less resource-intensive to create than any other 'Mech, it takes as much dev time and resources to create a Wasp as it does to create a Stone Rhino - that nobody will buy, nobody will play, and everyone will complain about being deeply underpowered, unfun, and simply a bad fit in MWO.

Tiy0s is right. There is no reason to bother with Wasps or Stingers when both the Locust and Flea exist, and each of those two 'Mechs has plenty of variant options that cover the gamut of what you can do with a 20-tonner.

The Locust IIC? Timeline-appropriate for the Clan Invasion (introduced in 2832, per Sarna), and honestly makes a semi-decent stand-in for the Fire Moth we can't have because it's too fast to function correctly in MWO. Locust IIC is still quite fast, it carries actually worthwhile armaments, and it has variants that work well both in MWO's loosey-goosey hardpoint system and MW5's much stricter sized weapon slot system. It's a good example of a 'Mech that fulfills Tiy0s's given criteria: a Worthwhile Addition to MWO and eligible for use in MW5: Clans.

The Wasp and its eight hundred sametech variants are all the same bloody 'Mech. Slow, barely armed, barely armored. The Stinger is the exact same 'Mech but with different aesthetics and almost no useful variants. bad robits are bad, and there is no good justification for deliberately introducing actively terrible 'Mechs into MWO that furthermore cannot be effectively utilized in MW5: Clans.

[Valdarion Silarius]

Tiy0s, on 11 September 2024 - 11:04 AM, said:

I've been asked a lot about what mechs could happen, thoughts about Sunder, Hauptmann, Hellcat, Iron Cheetah, etc. I'll just summarize all the answers I've been given here.

Any mech we make has to be eligible for use in our active games, which in this case would be MW5 Clans and MWO. MWO is very loose, can pretty much add whatever as long as it's a worthwhile addition. Clans is a lot more strict. A mech that needs to be available by the start of the invasion and a clan mech. I know people want a lot of IS mechs like the Devastator, Hauptmann, Sunder, Wasp, Stinger, etc but a big thing to keep in mind is that Clans is a game where you play Clan mechs only. I would be incredibly hard pressed to try to convince leadership to greenlight the creation of a mech that you can't even use in our future flagship game. The Bullshark is a one off because I took that mech entirely upon myself and made it. That's not something that would happen again, realistically.

I love the enthusiasm, I know everyone has their favorite mech from previous games that they're just dying to see. Rather than just say "no" and leave it at that, I want to level with you guys and explain why we're choosing what we're choosing. It's not that we're ignoring player wishes, more that there's a lot more constraints than most people are aware of.

On a personal note, these next comments are not the official stance at everyone at PGI but more the stance and arguments I take when we discuss future mechs among the mech design team. There are a lot of mechs that win for nostalgia such as the Wasp, Stinger, Ostroc, etc that players would love to see upon announcement. But that love would quickly sour into extreme disappointment when they play the mechs in game and they fall incredibly short. Wasp and Stinger bring nothing new to the table when it comes to hardpoints, the Spider does everything they do. The Hauptmann has a locked standard engine which hurts a lot in IS assaults. The Devastator would be a good addition, it's kind of like a 100 ton Warhammer. But now that the Atlas Warlord exists it's kind of less unique? It's a really common issue, even inside PGI sometimes, to go "oh my goodness I love this mech it's going to be great" but then when you look at it on paper it falls incredibly short.

Or there are some mechs, like the Grizzly, who fall short in reputation but then once you build it you realize it's actually a monster in a format with mechlab.

If we are going by that logic, then the only two mechs that would fall into "speedy boi" and "chonker" would be the Locust IIC and Iron Cheetah.

[Battlemaster56]

1453 R, on 12 September 2024 - 10:26 AM, said:

Would you spend forty dollars on a Wasp/Stinger pack?

Furthermore, would you expect a large majority of MWO players to spend money on a Wasp/Stinger pack?

I am a longtime BattleTech fangirl, I have been enjoying the IP since the time my parents bought me MechWarrior 2 as my very first video game. Spent my entire childhood buried in BattleTech novels, reading TROs with stats I couldn't understand but drawings and fluff I loved to read, making 'Mechs out of my K'Nex toys, and otherwise being an absolute 'Mech nut. I'm as big a fan as most any TT diehard, and I'm telling you I really could not care less about Wasps and Stingers existing in MWO and would not bother with a Wasp/Stinger combo pack. Regardless of the lore fluffery behind them being super common, those two 'mechs are boring. They're mook NPC grunts nobody cares about in the books, they're disposable list filler in the TT rules, and they're a waste of time and effort in the video games.

Light 'Mechs in general already sell poorly compared to outsized chungus crap like the Stone Rhino. If you consistently make a thing that doesn't sell, eventually your product will fail. Absolutely nobody - nobody - except 'Mech Dads is going to buy a Wasp/Stinger pack, and not even all 'Mech Dads. Just the IntroTech purists. You're asking them to devote resources to creating two entire 'Mechs - and neither the Wasp nor the Stinger are any less resource-intensive to create than any other 'Mech, it takes as much dev time and resources to create a Wasp as it does to create a Stone Rhino - that nobody will buy, nobody will play, and everyone will complain about being deeply underpowered, unfun, and simply a bad fit in MWO.

Tiy0s is right. There is no reason to bother with Wasps or Stingers when both the Locust and Flea exist, and each of those two 'Mechs has plenty of variant options that cover the gamut of what you can do with a 20-tonner.

The Locust IIC? Timeline-appropriate for the Clan Invasion (introduced in 2832, per Sarna), and honestly makes a semi-decent stand-in for the Fire Moth we can't have because it's too fast to function correctly in MWO. Locust IIC is still quite fast, it carries actually worthwhile armaments, and it has variants that work well both in MWO's loosey-goosey hardpoint system and MW5's much stricter sized weapon slot system. It's a good example of a 'Mech that fulfills Tiy0s's given criteria: a Worthwhile Addition to MWO and eligible for use in MW5: Clans.

The Wasp and its eight hundred sametech variants are all the same bloody 'Mech. Slow, barely armed, barely armored. The Stinger is the exact same 'Mech but with different aesthetics and almost no useful variants. bad robits are bad, and there is no good justification for deliberately introducing actively terrible 'Mechs into MWO that furthermore cannot be effectively utilized in MW5: Clans.

It's not just about light mechs only, I know most of the playerbase is terrible to even pilot that and only gravitate to assault mechs because that what Battletech have instiulled into them, I'm talking about the strict thinking that a mech must bring something unique into the game when 100% of the mechs overlap each other. By Tiy0s response to the thread the bullshark shouldn't be brought over because it doesn't bring anything new to the table, when plenty of other mechs we currently have does the same.

Also since you only focus on the wasp and stinger they offer a 20 ton mech with jj's something the locust and flea lacks, and that's more than enough difference despite how minute it is enough to make them different, and opens variety in the 20 ton pool that been shared by basically the same mech with different models.

Let's be real the flea his basically a locust but with masc if you want to use it, other wise there is no difference.

And on the other point would I buy a wasp/stinger mechpack f*ck you! yes I will because it actually a change of pace from assualt mech a**glazing online that we been having for a long time.

Edit: I skipped over your tragic backstory because it add nothing to the conversation.

Edited by Battlemaster56, 12 September 2024 - 01:49 PM.

[1453 R]

I mean, cool. You'd spend forty dollars on a Wasp/Stinger combo pack. So would - and I'll be generous here - a couple hundred other PokeMech enthusiasts and/or 'Mech Dads. After that initial run of pure nostalgia sales however, who's buying the pack?

Not comp players, who have no need for a slower Locust/Flea with worse geometry and crap weapons.

Not average casual players, who don't really care about the Wasp's/Stinger's illustrious history as faceless pointless tabletop filler units and campaign OpFor and mostly see a slower Locust/Flea with worse geometry and crap weapons.

Not players looking for a unique gameplay experience, since neither the Wasp nor the Stinger offer anything a Spider variant doesn't do. If you want to pilot a fast, jumpy twigweight nuisance, the Spider actually does that quite well. Any Wasp/Stinger variants worth a spit would have to clone the Spider's quirks, and at that point why not simply play the faster, better armored, and jumpier 'Mech?

Nobody would buy Wasps or Stingers. It costs time, money, and effort to create 'Mechs for MWO and either MW5 game, and the company has a very limited budget for all three of those things. The Money People don't want to use that time, money and effort on crap that doesn't sell. The developers don't want to use their time and effort on creating content nobody likes that won't ever see any real play.

Look, I get it. I've got a soft spot in my head heart for the Valkyrie. Have ever since I was young. Never cared about the Wasp or Stinger, but I really enjoyed this goofy little missile-chucking jumpy goober. Same for the Sentinel, which I have fond memories of back in the MW2:Mercs days. Am I sad I have no Valkyries or Sentinels in MW5: Mercs because they're just a terrible fit for MWO? Yeah, a little. But I know why it's not there and I don't blame them for the decision. Some Nostalgia Wins just aren't worth the time to develop, especially when you remember that we're basically working with Indie Dev resources here.

Getting bitter and angry that Piranha isn't going out of its way to complete the Entire IntroTech Collector Set is mostly just a ticket to unnecessary sadness. And hey - at least we never got saddled with the Whitworthless, eh?

[Battlemaster56]

Stop the projection old man, what you said about me doesn't stick, and two you keep talking about the wasp and stinger when I'm generally talking about the moronic point that mechs must add something unique to the game which is impossible, as no matter what every mech does the same thing and just become purely cosmetic in the end of the day, tell me what does a stone rhino offers differnet from a dire wolf, other than a being a battlemech it's build are similar and does fills the same role.

Because all the mechs in this game is redundant, and adding more just fuels said redundancy even more, so what the point arguing that x mech already does what y mech does anyway, it 's pointless.

ANd secondly why do anyone care about a few hundred players in comp thinks they're playing a completely different game,m from the majority of the pugs so why does that affect which mechs be added to the roster, not like it's gonna hurt them in the end.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

TBH, the only way that introducing new mechs that are virtually the same like that is if a new game comes out and tries to pull what Magic the Gathering and TT do, by restricting mech selection in someway. Like say certain factions are valid for "standard" format and factions only have limited selections of mechs (like Awesomes and stalkers for Marik specifically for example) that way "reskins" can be added if desired for mechs that might be overly similar but unique to each faction.

[1453 R]

I'm an old woman, thank you.

A'ight. If you state that bringing something new to the table isn't necessary, what's the reason to add a 'Mech? From your comments and general attitude, your criteria for inclusion in the game is crystal clear - 'Mech Dad nostalgia and IntroTech PokeMech completionism and that's it.

Do you believe there are enough people willing to kick out forty bucks on nostalgia, and nostalgia alone, for 'Mechs that do nothing interesting and add no fun or useful options? 'Mechs like the Wasp and Stinger, the Thorn, the Valkyrie, the Sentinel, the Clint, the Whitworthless, the Wyvern, the Bombardier, or the Crocket to name just a sampling?

It is dramatically easier to print a 'mech in a TRO than it is to model and implement a 'mech in a video game. One piece of art, a few days ironing out some basics stats and fluffing variants, a day to write some lore, another day to check that lore against the Library, and boom - 'Mech. A week tops, and that can be done concurrently with most of the other crap in the TRO to fill out RATs. There is going to be some degree of juice that simply isn't worth the squeeze, outside of situations like Quicksilver mentions where selection is limited in weird ways. Frankly, nobody likes that, especially for an arena combat game like MWO - they want to play the Cool Things and aren't willing to lock themselves away from eighty percent of the Cool Things by swearing an undying oath of allegiance to their choice of Forty-Year-Old National Stereotype in SPAAACE.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

1453 R, on 12 September 2024 - 03:03 PM, said:

There is going to be some degree of juice that simply isn't worth the squeeze, outside of situations like Quicksilver mentions where selection is limited in weird ways. Frankly, nobody likes that, especially for an arena combat game like MWO - they want to play the Cool Things and aren't willing to lock themselves away from eighty percent of the Cool Things by swearing an undying oath of allegiance to their choice of Forty-Year-Old National Stereotype in SPAAACE.

To be fair, in the hypothetical I proposed, QP would be like legacy as in no restriction. Standard would likely be the competitive format. IMO it is the best bet to make pokemech an actual thing.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 12 September 2024 - 04:07 PM.

[Battlemaster56]

1453 R, on 12 September 2024 - 03:03 PM, said:

I'm an old woman, thank you.

A'ight. If you state that bringing something new to the table isn't necessary, what's the reason to add a 'Mech? From your comments and general attitude, your criteria for inclusion in the game is crystal clear - 'Mech Dad nostalgia and IntroTech PokeMech completionism and that's it.

Do you believe there are enough people willing to kick out forty bucks on nostalgia, and nostalgia alone, for 'Mechs that do nothing interesting and add no fun or useful options? 'Mechs like the Wasp and Stinger, the Thorn, the Valkyrie, the Sentinel, the Clint, the Whitworthless, the Wyvern, the Bombardier, or the Crocket to name just a sampling?

It is dramatically easier to print a 'mech in a TRO than it is to model and implement a 'mech in a video game. One piece of art, a few days ironing out some basics stats and fluffing variants, a day to write some lore, another day to check that lore against the Library, and boom - 'Mech. A week tops, and that can be done concurrently with most of the other crap in the TRO to fill out RATs. There is going to be some degree of juice that simply isn't worth the squeeze, outside of situations like Quicksilver mentions where selection is limited in weird ways. Frankly, nobody likes that, especially for an arena combat game like MWO - they want to play the Cool Things and aren't willing to lock themselves away from eighty percent of the Cool Things by swearing an undying oath of allegiance to their choice of Forty-Year-Old National Stereotype in SPAAACE.

Same thing old man. And you still wrong about me but go ahead contuine on, I'll be reading on the toilet.

Edited by Battlemaster56, 12 September 2024 - 04:18 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Battlemaster56, on 12 September 2024 - 02:31 PM, said:

Because all the mechs in this game is redundant, and adding more just fuels said redundancy even more, so what the point arguing that x mech already does what y mech does anyway, it 's pointless.

I would hazard a guess that redundant mechs don't sell well, nostalgia only gets you so far.

[Battlemaster56]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 12 September 2024 - 04:29 PM, said:

I would hazard a guess that redundant mechs don't sell well, nostalgia only gets you so far.

Tbh I really don't care at the end of the game, they only sell one type of mech, because that's all this game have to offer.

It's cool to see the bane but it's not as exciting to see if we actually have a shake up on what mechs being released it I would be more happier but it's just another tuesday of the same class being push constantly. It's not me being a mech dad, or a pokemech collector I just want something different then the same **** being released but hey it's the slop most people want then so be it.

I can legit used this 40 - 55 dollars on other games, like yugioh or genshin atleast they offer something differnet once in a while.

Like hell I'm pushing for the Shadhawk, Griffin IIC and they fill out the same role as the arctic wolf 1 and 2 but god damn it be exciting to see something new than assault number 42069.

Like I'm more excited for the commando iic because it's not an assault or a uribie.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Assaults don't get "pushed", PGI is just catering to the market in that everyone likes assaults (because they are also the most potent). Thanks to the available tonnage, they also have technically have the most build diversity.

[Battlemaster56]

At this point just remove all other mech classes no point playing htem since everyone wants to play the fatties anyway see no point having them in game