60 replies to this topic

[VeeOt Dragon]

meh, was never a big fan of clans so on a pure money perspective (not that i have ever and will ever pay real money for anything in MWO at their current pricing) i don't care about any new clan mech they might add. i like my IS mechs more even then i have better things to spend $40+ bucks on. hell i just got an entire NEW game for under $30 (Star Trucker, its actually a pretty fun and chill game). why would i ever pay that much for some digital goody alone? with so many decent indie developers out there putting out games better than most triple A titles i just can't justify paying what PGI is asking for their mech packs (hell i have been saying for years that they need to drop the cost of their older mech packs to under $10 if they truly want to generate some sales without putting in any extra work). even as someone who likes Assaults i would like to see some more mediums or heavies added to the game (i never play lights but that doesn't mean i don't want to see more of those as well)

as for the dev telling us that any new mechs have to be able to be put in both the new MW5 title as well as MWO that means we are not going to see any new IS mechs for a long while. so what little interest i still have in MWO is quickly fading, what with the the massive nerfs to one of my favorite weapons (LRM) and now this well meh, might be time to hang up the ol' nurohelm for good. don't gt me wrong i do love the Battletech franchise and i have enjoyed MWO over the years but there is only so long that any PvP game can hold my attention and MWO has been the longest by far. as long as they don't **** up MW5: Mercs so it breaks my mods again i will just stick to that for my stompy robot fix, or better yet HBS Battletech.

[mytilus edulis]

Tiy0s, on 11 September 2024 - 11:04 AM, said:

I've been asked a lot about what mechs could happen, thoughts about Sunder, Hauptmann, Hellcat, Iron Cheetah, etc. I'll just summarize all the answers I've been given here.

Any mech we make has to be eligible for use in our active games, which in this case would be MW5 Clans and MWO. MWO is very loose, can pretty much add whatever as long as it's a worthwhile addition. Clans is a lot more strict. A mech that needs to be available by the start of the invasion and a clan mech. I know people want a lot of IS mechs like the Devastator, Hauptmann, Sunder, Wasp, Stinger, etc but a big thing to keep in mind is that Clans is a game where you play Clan mechs only. I would be incredibly hard pressed to try to convince leadership to greenlight the creation of a mech that you can't even use in our future flagship game. The Bullshark is a one off because I took that mech entirely upon myself and made it. That's not something that would happen again, realistically.

I love the enthusiasm, I know everyone has their favorite mech from previous games that they're just dying to see. Rather than just say "no" and leave it at that, I want to level with you guys and explain why we're choosing what we're choosing. It's not that we're ignoring player wishes, more that there's a lot more constraints than most people are aware of.

On a personal note, these next comments are not the official stance at everyone at PGI but more the stance and arguments I take when we discuss future mechs among the mech design team. There are a lot of mechs that win for nostalgia such as the Wasp, Stinger, Ostroc, etc that players would love to see upon announcement. But that love would quickly sour into extreme disappointment when they play the mechs in game and they fall incredibly short. Wasp and Stinger bring nothing new to the table when it comes to hardpoints, the Spider does everything they do. The Hauptmann has a locked standard engine which hurts a lot in IS assaults. The Devastator would be a good addition, it's kind of like a 100 ton Warhammer. But now that the Atlas Warlord exists it's kind of less unique? It's a really common issue, even inside PGI sometimes, to go "oh my goodness I love this mech it's going to be great" but then when you look at it on paper it falls incredibly short.

Or there are some mechs, like the Grizzly, who fall short in reputation but then once you build it you realize it's actually a monster in a format with mechlab.

These points make a lot of sense and I appreciate the careful consideration you put into advocating for specific chassis in terms of their impact on the diversity and enjoyment of player experiences, given the constraints that you have due to the MW5 products.

[Ttly]

"It's actually a monster in a format with MechLab."
Uhh, I don't see how the Grizzly would be that amazing in this game?
https://mwo.nav-alph...680163c0_CUSTOM
You could build it like this rather than the weird mix of C-Pulse Lasers that it canonically has. Maybe ditch the LRM and use lighter engine to go C-ERPPC poptart, but the VGL and Summoner can do that already, and better hardpoint locations.
I mean it's kind of like a 70t Highlander at most? And it's not like the Highlanders are a particular menace in this game nowadays.

The -2 variant would probably be run with a Nova-Prime style arm which while it works for the Nova, probably wouldn't as well on it unless backed with just as much quirks which clan battlemechs seldom get much of.

Edited by Ttly, 14 September 2024 - 02:45 AM.

[Lanzman]

1453 R, on 12 September 2024 - 10:26 AM, said:

Would you spend forty dollars on a Wasp/Stinger pack?

Furthermore, would you expect a large majority of MWO players to spend money on a Wasp/Stinger pack?

Can't speak for "a large majority" but pretty much the only mechpack I'd spend money on for MWO at this point would be a Wasp/Stinger/Valkyrie three-fer.

[1453 R]

Lanzman, on 15 September 2024 - 12:54 PM, said:

Can't speak for "a large majority" but pretty much the only mechpack I'd spend money on for MWO at this point would be a Wasp/Stinger/Valkyrie three-fer.

You'd buy them, play them for three days, get hammered into paste nonstop for those three days, shelve them, and never touch them again. You and the maybe two hundred-odd other people who bother with them for IRL dollars, and that count includes the streamers who're obligated to buy new 'Mech packs for their streaming.

Those three are all unacceptably poor fits for MWO, and the time to do them anyways - for MW5: Mercs - has passed. Do you really want them in MWO despite their utter unsuitability for the game, just so you can watch them all fail?

[Battlemaster56]

1453 R, on 15 September 2024 - 02:17 PM, said:

You'd buy them, play them for three days, get hammered into paste nonstop for those three days, shelve them, and never touch them again. You and the maybe two hundred-odd other people who bother with them for IRL dollars, and that count includes the streamers who're obligated to buy new 'Mech packs for their streaming.

Those three are all unacceptably poor fits for MWO, and the time to do them anyways - for MW5: Mercs - has passed. Do you really want them in MWO despite their utter unsuitability for the game, just so you can watch them all fail?

That's a lot presumptions right there old man.

[Wraith 1]

For the record, I would happily buy an """Owens""" that has been haphazardly kitbashed from Jenner, Jenner IIC, and Osiris parts. Just make sure it has some big missile capacity and heat generation quirks to make up for the omnitech.

[Ttly]

Battlemaster56, on 15 September 2024 - 03:29 PM, said:

That's a lot presumptions right there old man.

Just play one of the Spiders, see if you'd ever come to the conclusion of: "Man, I wish I'm a 20t mech instead with even more quirks than the 5V!"

Edited by Ttly, 15 September 2024 - 09:21 PM.

[Battlemaster56]

Ttly, on 15 September 2024 - 09:19 PM, said:

Just play one of the Spiders, see if you'd ever come to the conclusion of: "Man, I wish I'm a 20t mech instead with even more quirks than the 5V!"

Which the one with limited hardpoints because where they're place limiting the options, or the one with decent amount of hardpoints for nice builds because I played them. Correct am I wrong weren't the spider released before hardpoint inflation became a thing for battlemechs, if so why is the wasp subjective to that now and second the wasp don't have variants where weapons are locked in a single hardpoint like the ct and generally have enough decent variants to drop.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Battlemaster56, on 16 September 2024 - 04:03 AM, said:

Correct am I wrong weren't the spider released before hardpoint inflation became a thing for battlemechs

Hardpoint inflation has been a thing since the beginning the difference over time has been the scale of inflation because we started so early in the timeline that you didn't see many weapon boats like you do later, the only thing that has never been inflated is Omnimechs. The only thing that mechs aren't given is hardpoints in sections that had no weapons so if a mech only has two weapons in separate sections, expect it to only have two sections with hardpoints.

The Wasp is pretty much a energy/missile mix while the Stinger is an energy/ballistic mix (both have exceptions to the rule of course), the only unique thing to them is they have JJs where the Locust and Flea don't but both get away with that thanks to their massive speed so at that point yeah the Wasp and Stinger are just worse Spider/Javelin/Osiris.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 16 September 2024 - 07:15 AM.

[TercieI]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 16 September 2024 - 07:14 AM, said:

The Wasp is pretty much a energy/missile mix while the Stinger is an energy/ballistic mix (both have exceptions to the rule of course), the only unique thing to them is they have JJs where the Locust and Flea don't but both get away with that thanks to their massive speed so at that point yeah the Wasp and Stinger are just worse Spider/Javelin/Osiris.

I mean, they also have nostalgia for me personally. That should be reason enough, right? I have whaled long and hard in hopes of a Stinger.

Yes, I'm stupid.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Clearly not, otherwise they would be more willing to do light legends. Seems pretty clear that lights don't really sell well, I mean remember how long it took to get the Flea? I mean we are getting a clan light omnimech after the Bane, but that's only because of MW5 so doesn't really count.

[TercieI]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 16 September 2024 - 08:21 AM, said:

Clearly not, otherwise they would be more willing to do light legends. Seems pretty clear that lights don't really sell well, I mean remember how long it took to get the Flea? I mean we are getting a clan light omnimech after the Bane, but that's only because of MW5 so doesn't really count.

You're not wrong, but I still hate it. I would really like some light legends.

[1453 R]

Would love to see more light or medium Legends myself. But apparently the last time they introduced one - Scaleshot - the community absolutely hated it and demanded Piranha nerf it into extinction and/or remove it from the store entirely. Not really encouraging for more such 'Mechs.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

1453 R, on 16 September 2024 - 10:59 AM, said:

Would love to see more light or medium Legends myself. But apparently the last time they introduced one - Scaleshot - the community absolutely hated it and demanded Piranha nerf it into extinction and/or remove it from the store entirely. Not really encouraging for more such 'Mechs.

What's funny about this, is that isn't the last medium legend they introduced. There have been 3 mediums since then; Gorewing (which was exceedingly meh), the Onyx (shield novelty wore off quickly and you no longer see them), and the latest which is the Specter (which is also exceedingly meh). Scattershot and Scaleshot were borked on release which I have no doubt helped sales because unfortunately power sells. Which is just goes to remind everyone why MWO's monetization scheme was borked from the beginning and why people avoid monetizing things that aren't just cosmetics.

I'm also ignoring the fact the Scaleshot had no reason to exist given the Jenner IIC has been suffering for ages and the Scaleshot has for the most part just been a better Jenner IIC for most of its existence. Maybe if they had built the Scaleshot to be a SRM2 spam mech like the LCT-3S it would have made more sense but :shrug:

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 16 September 2024 - 11:56 AM.

[Lincoln Cross]

I want the Spirit Walker.

[1453 R]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 16 September 2024 - 11:53 AM, said:

What's funny about this, is that isn't the last medium legend they introduced. There have been 3 mediums since then; Gorewing (which was exceedingly meh), the Onyx (shield novelty wore off quickly and you no longer see them), and the latest which is the Specter (which is also exceedingly meh). Scattershot and Scaleshot were borked on release which I have no doubt helped sales because unfortunately power sells. Which is just goes to remind everyone why MWO's monetization scheme was borked from the beginning and why people avoid monetizing things that aren't just cosmetics.

I'm also ignoring the fact the Scaleshot had no reason to exist given the Jenner IIC has been suffering for ages and the Scaleshot has for the most part just been a better Jenner IIC for most of its existence. Maybe if they had built the Scaleshot to be a SRM2 spam mech like the LCT-3S it would have made more sense but :shrug:

Y'know, that's my bad. I legitimately forgot about Gorewing, which has a neat gimmick undercut by terrible weapons. Which, frankly, describes Spectre to a T as well, and Onyx to a degree. I've been wanting to try Onyx for a while just because, but yeah. I suppose that kinda reinforces the overall point, though.

I do really enjoy Scaleshot as I'm a fan of the Viper as a chassis but no Vipers other than Scaleshot really matter anymore, if they ever did. Because it's a Clan 'mech, it doesn't get the kind of SuperMegaUltraQuirking it'd need to make its ~8t of armament actually function. Frankly, playing MW5 recently has taught me one thing - MWO made a huge mistake by making ammo/ton values as pathetically low as they are. If one or two tons of ammo was sufficient for most 'Mechs for most purposes, you wouldn't need to be at the whims of the Quirk Gods handing out loads of free ammo on some-but-not-all small 'Mechs to actually run worthwhile weapons. It feels so nice, in 5, to not have to devote half again the weight of any munitions-firing weapon to ammunition for that weapon.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Viper is still meta even outside the Scaleshot. Medium lasers + MGs is still great and if you are thank hungry HMGs + some red lasers is also still solid. Just depends on what you want to do. If it can boat mgs + lasers and doesn't have paper thin survivability like the Piranha, chances are strong it is a solid pick for a light, bonus points if it has JJs which are pretty essential for being a light. I was out of the meta for a while when I didn't play but pretty sure the Viper has always been on the cusp or in meta for most of it's life, which I enjoy since I have been a huge Viper (one of the ugliest ducks in the sea of ugly ducklings from TT) since I started using it in TT years prior to it getting added to MWO.

As for ammo, it would take some adjustments but honestly I think ammo is just a build tax and doesn't really add much to the game, the next MW multiplayer hopefully will design around everything having unlimited ammo.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 16 September 2024 - 03:39 PM.

[Manboobs-sama]

Tiy0s, on 11 September 2024 - 11:04 AM, said:

Any mech we make has to be eligible for use in our active games, which in this case would be MW5 Clans and MWO. MWO is very loose, can pretty much add whatever as long as it's a worthwhile addition. Clans is a lot more strict. A mech that needs to be available by the start of the invasion and a clan mech. I know people want a lot of IS mechs like the Devastator, Hauptmann, Sunder, Wasp, Stinger, etc but a big thing to keep in mind is that Clans is a game where you play Clan mechs only. I would be incredibly hard pressed to try to convince leadership to greenlight the creation of a mech that you can't even use in our future flagship game. The Bullshark is a one off because I took that mech entirely upon myself and made it. That's not something that would happen again, realistically.

Oh, so when you said the Bullshark is your baby you well and truly meant it. It exists in MWO solely because of your efforts. Thank you for enabling it to exist in the game. I love the Bullshark so much. Probably my favorite thing in HBS Battletech.

[Angel of Annihilation]

The Thug is just a Hatamoto-Chi just FYI. Same hardpoints, same weight, same tech. Only thing different would be the hitboxes and geometry which can be important. I think it would definitely be more aesthetically pleasing though.