20 replies to this topic

[MechMaster059]

I bought the new winged Apache yesterday because I wanted to try out the new flying mechs and played it until I had finished skilling it to 91 points. When I start a new mech, I put 60 GSP points into it and then skill the rest from match experience. I ran out of premium time so it took a couple dozen of matches to finish skilling my Apache.

I think the Apache is a well designed mech. It's fun to play and has good quirks and weapon hardpoints to fit its playstyle, but I noticed one issue with the wing JJ that makes them cumbersome to use and significantly diminishes their usefulness: they have almost zero initial jump.

I know what you all are thinking: "Thank you captain obvious, everyone already knows that." Folks... this is a serious problem that makes wing JJ frustrating to use. These things can barely jump over boulders and small ridges, never mind buildings or hills. The end result is that targets you want to shoot constantly run away or get behind cover before you can attack them. You find yourself wasting a lot of time climbing around terrain to get into a good position to initiate a jump.

See this boulder on Canyon Network?


I takes my Apache about 4sec to jump over it. My PXH-7S with only 3xJJ (it can equip 6) can jump over this boulder in 1sec.

How about this short ridge?


The Apache needs 6sec just to get over this ridge. The PHX-7S needs 2sec.

One of my matches was on The Mining Collective. A light/medium mech (I don't remember which) was shooting lock-on missiles (ATMs?) at me from the low platform in the crosshairs. I was positioned as you see in the picture:


I wanted to jump up to get LOS on him to fire my weapons. Forget about it... it takes an obscene amount of time for the Apache, around 8sec, to rise high enough to shoot up there. My PXH-7S with a ½ load of JJ can get LOS in around 2.5sec. Needless to say, the enemy mech kept ducking away to break LOS whenever I attempted to jump.

I know these mechs are not meant to pop-tart. I'm not asking for that. All I'm suggesting is that these wing JJ be given around +5m of initial jump so they don't get screwed up by small obstacles and can actually launch into the air from anywhere rather than scurrying around all day looking for high ground to glide off of.

There were many times in game where I wished I had a standard jump jet instead and when I finished skilling the mech I was left wondering "What use case are these wing JJ good for?" Only once did it really seem to shine when I was on Canyon Network and a couple of enemy assault mechs on a ridge in the distance were shooting down on my teammates. I got up into the air and started RACing one of them from far away which proved to be an excellent distraction forcing it to back off from my teammates and fire upon me instead. I then deactivated the JJ to fall and avoid fire and my teammates rushed the ridge and took it.

======

Proposed change:
Make every winged JJ have ½ a Class V JJ built into it. That's 60 KNS of initial thrust lasting for 3.75sec built into each winged JJ. (1 extra Class V JJ in total because 2x wing JJ per mech)

The point here is simply to help wing JJ mechs get over small obstacles. Such a small amount of extra initial thrust would not be able to turn medium/heavy mechs into pop-tarts. This would also help the mech break falls.

Edited by MechMaster059, 01 September 2024 - 01:16 PM.

[w0qj]

Quick question: Does your mech (Apache--but I'm also asking about the Spectre) take damage when its big fixed wings get hit by enemy? (Or are the fixed wings just cosmetic, as in: fixed wings does not get hit by enemy, and hence no damage to mech?)

[MechMaster059]

w0qj, on 01 September 2024 - 01:12 PM, said:

...Does your mech ... take damage when its big fixed wings get hit by enemy?

I don't know for sure. It's hard to tell in game due to playing in first person perspective.

[Meep Meep]

You can use terrain to get a nice boost to initial jump speed especially when paired with full hill climb. Find a nice low rock or low slope and launch off of it at full speed since you will inherit the upward momentum if you time the jj right. But this is something being looked at by cauldron for a possible buff.

[kalashnikity]

100% agree. At minimum... a slight increase to initial vertical vector, just to get the initial upward boost started, with the way the physics engine work this will be sufficient.

I've spectated an Apache once, and it was obviously frustrating to try and jump over even tiny objects. A slight increase to initial upward velocity would make a big difference.

I would not be opposed to having an option to add one or two traditional jump jet as well. Not enough to pop tart but enough to simply get over objects (like the canyon wall on Hibernate Rift) in a reasonable time frame. I don't think one or two jump jets would break the game, or give an unreasonable advantage.

[MechMaster059]

kalashnikity, on 01 September 2024 - 03:52 PM, said:

100% agree. At minimum... a slight increase to initial vertical vector, just to get the initial upward boost started, with the way the physics engine work this will be sufficient.

Yup. I'm not sure what form a change should take but something needs to be done.

kalashnikity, on 01 September 2024 - 03:52 PM, said:

...I would not be opposed to having an option to add one or two traditional jump jet as well. ...

I thought about that as well. The problem is:

1. It would add more weight and slot cost to an item that is already consuming 6 slots. (This is the biggest issue)
2. A single Class III JJ (for the Apache) has enough lifting power / duration to get on top of small hills and buildings in a single vertical jump which might make these mechs feel a bit pop-tartish.

I don't mind taking a little longer and having to start jumping from farther away to get on top of a small hill or building using a wing JJ. The key words there are "a little longer", as in 50-100% longer, not 300-400% longer as things are now.

[Meep Meep]

As long as you have full hill climb you can scale slopes easily on both mechs with jj boost. Just as long as its a slope and not a sheer vertical since the dumb physics engine has a tendency to stick your mech to the wall and won't let go. Just start boosting ~after~ you start to climb.

[MechMaster059]

Meep Meep, on 01 September 2024 - 05:01 PM, said:

As long as you have full hill climb you can scale slopes easily on both mechs with jj boost. ...

I appreciate the suggestion but that sounds like a work-around for the problem rather than a solution to the problem.

It's also a skill tax into what I consider to be one of the weakest skills in the tree. (Hill climb and Speed Retention should be merged together into one skill, then maybe I'd consider putting points into it. They could call the new skill "Leg Day".)

Edited by MechMaster059, 01 September 2024 - 05:25 PM.

[Meep Meep]

Sure its a work around. That doesn't make it any less useful to know until they get around to addressing it.

[kalashnikity]

MechMaster059, on 01 September 2024 - 04:47 PM, said:

Yup. I'm not sure what form a change should take but something needs to be done.


I thought about that as well. The problem is:

1. It would add more weight and slot cost to an item that is already consuming 6 slots. (This is the biggest issue)
2. A single Class III JJ (for the Apache) has enough lifting power / duration to get on top of small hills and buildings in a single vertical jump which might make these mechs feel a bit pop-tartish.

I don't mind taking a little longer and having to start jumping from farther away to get on top of a small hill or building using a wing JJ. The key words there are "a little longer", as in 50-100% longer, not 300-400% longer as things are now.

With an advantage like that, maybe it should be a big penalty to add even more lift?

IDK, just thinking about it.

The match I observed was interesting, the pilot had obviously spent a while testing maps since they were able to do some interesting things I had not thought of, and get into some unexpected positions, so I think as a whole it is well balanced. But watching them try and get over some very minor obstacles was also frustrating.

That's why I felt like a minor buff would be called for.

[MechMaster059]

kalashnikity, on 01 September 2024 - 10:21 PM, said:

...

That's why I felt like a minor buff would be called for.

I agree with that.

[RockmachinE]

Seems like a fair trade off, just watched Baradul play it and it looks ok. I suppose you have to readjust how you think of JJs.

[MechMaster059]

RockmachinE, on 02 September 2024 - 08:47 AM, said:

Seems like a fair trade off, just watched Baradul play it and it looks ok. I suppose you have to readjust how you think of JJs.

Baradul's video is the reason I bought it. Try playing it yourself and see what you think about wing JJs. I have a feeling your opinion will change.

[Just a Kobold]

I watched MPG play the new partial wing mechs a fair bit. From what I see, they do need a bit of an initial thrust boost, but really not a whole lot. They aren't JJs, and they shouldn't be thought of as a way to dominate the terrain like they were.

What they do well is let you pull off flanks from heights, and if you keep that ECM on mmmmaaaybe 50% of the playerbase will ever look up to see you. Just think of how many people will notice a UAV once it goes off the sensors.

It looks like rounded objects work the best to bounce off, like all the domes or those rounded pipes coming out of a wall on Mining.

[RockmachinE]

MechMaster059, on 02 September 2024 - 11:13 AM, said:

Baradul's video is the reason I bought it. Try playing it yourself and see what you think about wing JJs. I have a feeling your opinion will change.

I'd love to, but I don't plan on spending the money.

[MechMaster059]

Just a Kobold, on 02 September 2024 - 01:54 PM, said:

...they do need a bit of an initial thrust boost, but really not a whole lot. ...

Agreed.

[Grospoliner]

w0qj, on 01 September 2024 - 01:12 PM, said:

Quick question: Does your mech (Apache--but I'm also asking about the Spectre) take damage when its big fixed wings get hit by enemy? (Or are the fixed wings just cosmetic, as in: fixed wings does not get hit by enemy, and hence no damage to mech?)

I can confirm that the Apache wing hit boxes belong to the side torsos.

[kalashnikity]

RockmachinE, on 02 September 2024 - 03:00 PM, said:

I'd love to, but I don't plan on spending the money.

Just do the monthly events, if you start now you can save up enough to buy one by the time they become available for MC.

[kalashnikity]

Grospoliner, on 02 September 2024 - 05:16 PM, said:

I can confirm that the Apache wing hit boxes belong to the side torsos.

That is extremely appropriate.

Finally LAMs in MWO!

I cannot describe adequately in text how excited I am to get a Spectre. And I may even get an Apache, it would be my first Champion.

There are a handful of mechs I have not bought yet, and that handful if decreasing rapidly. I just got a Black Knight yesterday, since the Red Reaper is on sale. I am still leveling the skills up, but it is very likeable, especially if you tweek your build to get your primary weapons in the high mounts.

Y'all should check out the current sale, most of the Heroes that are available for MC are on sale right now. I'm tempted to get a Stone Burner too. Heck of a good sale going on right now.

[LordNothing]

this is why we need jump pack consumables. one use jump jets that go really far.