33 replies to this topic

[Bud Crue]

Anyone else feel like MPL need a buff? And/or like there was a stealth nerf to MRMs, particularly the big launchers (MRM 10s seem to still do work)?

One, Just feel like MPL just kind of suck compared to other close range options (i.e. It feels ought right stupid to take 3 MPL or xpl vs a Snub if you have the option). Add in what you can do with Magshot or Ap Gauss, or equal tonnage of SRMs and MPL feel even worse. Once upon a time MPL vomit was downright OP, now any build you care to mention feels beneath mediocre.

Two, same sort of thing with MRMs. I haven't seen an MRM60-80 IV-4 or Wolverine, etc. in maybe a year(?) When I run MRMs on such ANY mechs I feel like I can hit a target at point blank, repeatedly, then find out I did next to nothing in damage. That didn't used to be the case. Either hit reg is screwed or there is something wrong with them that wasn't wrong a year ago.

Just wondering if others have any input/insight on these two weapon systems.

Edited by Bud Crue, 24 September 2024 - 06:58 PM.

[Evan OMellin]

Today nobody in sane rides MPLS because of inaficient tonage and low range in compare with mags. PGI have to just remove the cancerouse tumor called APGAUSS/MAGS from the game to make the balance better. Not to nerf or make charging time, just remove it. It weights nothin and does damage like AC2 on a decent range and kills the balance that way.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MPLs were bad before APG/Magshots were even introduced, they have been bad for at least a year or more. Same with iMLs (not the ERs) and MRMs. MRMs are just crappier SRMs with more range and a touch more velocity.

[LordNothing]

i used to use mrms a lot but their limitations caused them to start lagging behind what i was doing with other weapons and nerfs were kind of the last straw. it seems like tbolts are getting a lot more damage with more or less the same range profile (i always could make atms do work even with nerfs). nerfs hurt aimable weapons a lot harder than they hurt guided. id rather just not use missiles at all though.

mpl hasnt really been good since the days of the wubshee or early clan mpls.

Edited by LordNothing, 25 September 2024 - 04:31 PM.

[Bud Crue]

I don't think it goes back that far; at least not for me. I and those I drop with go out of our way to play what we consider the worst variants in the game and then brawl in them, and yet it is only in the last maybe year and a half that I feel like MPL and MRMs, especially the larger launchers, have had a significant drop off performance-wise. 6 MPL Grasshopper 5J, Jester, Sparky, and so on, down the line, were just fine until fairly recently. Same thing with MRM60-80 MRM builds. Performed at least "all right" then suddenly: utter garbage, and I don't see anything in the patch notes or otherwise that suggest a reason why or exactly what occurred to reduce both systems to dross.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bud Crue, on 25 September 2024 - 06:29 PM, said:

6 MPL Grasshopper 5J, Jester, Sparky, and so on, down the line, were just fine until fairly recently.

I don't remember these ever even being solid builds other than maybe when the Jester/Sparky were released, but ever since the Clans I don't think any of these mechs have had the quirks to make 6 MPL a worthwhile build. It took uber quirks to make the Thunderwub viable given it only mounted 2 MPLs more than the typical Firestarter around that time (5 MPL FS9-S).

[BlueDevilspawn]

When I can run a 5 MPL Vulcan-5T and it still does work, a 6MPL Grasshopper will not provide justification for any sort of MPL buff. Weapons are tested on meta mechs and meta builds to determine their upper limit potential. Sandbagging their performance and arguing for a buff is a bad faith argument.

We are likely nerfing cooldown slightly for magshot/apgauss, as has been said elsewhere. They are not being removed.

Edit: no we did not nerf MRMs. They are still high dps especially for their heat. They are sandblasting QP farming weapons. Not killing weapons.

Edited by BlueDevilspawn, 25 September 2024 - 10:04 PM.

[LordNothing]

i never really found mrms useful as a stand alone weapon system, it always needed a backup for the crippling/finishing blows. many times i unleashed salvo upon salvo at cherry components and got no effect. i need to put magshots on my iv4.

[misachii]

the biggest problem is that you put 6 med pulses on a grasshopper (heavy) and expect it to perform well.
grasshopper 5j is wasted tonnage for 6 medpulses, you would be way better with 3 binarys on that or 4 large x pulses.

these weapons are either for boating like on the victor legendery where you can put 10 medpulses or if you want to play with med pulses take a mech that is made for it like the wolfhound grinner, ecm and 5 medpulses, and its a light so you actually usefull tonnage vs weapons.

the biggest problem with mrms is their slow travel time and the longer range you can fire them and desynch.
you hit more with srms simply for the reason you fire them on half distance of mrms thus the desynch eats less.
try mrms on trial maps with the standing still mechs, they actually rip those apart pretty well. the problem is latency slow travel time and long distance.

Edited by misachii, 26 September 2024 - 04:22 AM.

[Hawk819]

A little less heat would be nice.

[TercieI]

MPLs are in a bad state. I'm not very interested in MWO. Those lines are uncoincidentally congruent over time. It's always been my favorite weapon, even though it usually has sucked.

[CFC Conky]

The Thunderbolt Top dog is pretty handy with 8xMPLs.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

[Bud Crue]

BlueDevilspawn, on 25 September 2024 - 09:53 PM, said:

When I can run a 5 MPL Vulcan-5T and it still does work, a 6MPL Grasshopper will not provide justification for any sort of MPL buff. Weapons are tested on meta mechs and meta builds to determine their upper limit potential. Sandbagging their performance and arguing for a buff is a bad faith argument.

We are likely nerfing cooldown slightly for magshot/apgauss, as has been said elsewhere. They are not being removed.

Edit: no we did not nerf MRMs. They are still high dps especially for their heat. They are sandblasting QP farming weapons. Not killing weapons.

I mentioned the Grasshopper (as well as the others) as a mech that historically even when running a 6mpl (w/srm4) build I was still able to do work in (no matter how sub-optimal it may in fact be). I should have included the Quickdraw-5M to make the descending tonnage theme of my full sentence ("...and son, down the line") more clear. Regardless of the mech tonnage, on the vast majority where MPL boating is a primary boating option or even a secondary weapon possibility, their performance seems far less impressive than other weapon choices these days. In nearly any mech that I ran MPLs on I have switched to more traditional mid-range laser vomit, Snubs, or simply stopped running them because they perform like crap compared to anything else. There are indeed a few that they still feel viable on (a few mediums and lights). Boiled down: 6 tons of MPL seems always a sub-optimal choice compared to a Snub.

I'll have to take your word on MRMs but I swear that even at point blank, especially the bigger launchers, feel down right anemic for their weight, and they didn't used to.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bud Crue, on 27 September 2024 - 03:53 AM, said:

I'll have to take your word on MRMs but I swear that even at point blank, especially the bigger launchers, feel down right anemic for their weight, and they didn't used to.

Mechs on average have more health than they used to, part of arms race/power creep that's been active since the 2018 heat sink changes pushed firepower up quite a bit. That is likely part of the reason MRMs don't feel as good is because that sandblasting just isn't as potent as it used to be.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 27 September 2024 - 06:05 AM.

[Ken Harkin]

I was a strong adherent of the church of the MRM for a long time. Dervishes, Archer Tempest, Marauder 9M & 5D, would routinely carry their weight with MRMs and ERML builds. I do not think the MRM has gotten worse, I feel other weapons have gotten better or are being more effectively utilized.

MRMs have always been about sandblasting foes. You surpress them for much of the round and when components open up the volleys begin to pay dividends with crits/kills. It feels the current meta is doing much more focused damage; that is just my feeling. MRMs work great when you can roll the returing damage, spreading it out, as the damage you dish out is already spread. With plenty of focused returned fire I find my MRM60 sandblast across a whole mech is dealt a 30+ point focus on one component. Trade that a couple times and I can tell you how it turns out for the MRM boat.

As a result of this my MRM boats have taken a back seat to more focused fire builds. AC20/SPPC Marauders and my new favourite Marauder Blight with 2UAC20, 3LMG, and 2ML consistently dropping concentrated damage into specific components while MRMs plaster the surrounding area have proven to be very consistent killers.

MRMs may still have a good place with jump capable Medium Mechs who can harass and pepper larger mechs from 300 - 500 meters. The issue is when a faster light or medium with concerntated weapons is able to bring them to close exchange at which point the sandblasting just doesn't work.

Perhaps a spread reduction would bring them back into competition. They already stream out over a prolonged period of time, throwing in the largest spread in the game on top of that is really limiting them in the new meta.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ken Harkin, on 27 September 2024 - 06:32 AM, said:

MRMs have always been about sandblasting foes. You surpress them for much of the round and when components open up the volleys begin to pay dividends with crits/kills. It feels the current meta is doing much more focused damage;

Metas have always preferred focused damage because it typically has more risk inherent to it. The balance point between weapons that spread damage over time and/or space is that they do more damage as compensation trading accuracy for just raw damage volume to potentially overwhelm.

The problem with MWO on average is that spread damage weapons have been plagued with other issues (LBX not really having the damage advantage it needs, SRM/MRMs having garbage velocity for anything other than point blank or farming assaults).

[Ken Harkin]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 27 September 2024 - 07:53 AM, said:

Metas have always preferred focused damage because it typically has more risk inherent to it. The balance point between weapons that spread damage over time and/or space is that they do more damage as compensation trading accuracy for just raw damage volume to potentially overwhelm.

The problem with MWO on average is that spread damage weapons have been plagued with other issues (LBX not really having the damage advantage it needs, SRM/MRMs having garbage velocity for anything other than point blank or farming assaults).

True. Rather than say "new meta" I perhaps should have said "current meta." For some time MRMs were relatively popular despite the limitation of spread damage. MRM builds routinely will rack up impressive damage but often find they have failed to kill anything. With those sandblast builds I often get KMDDs while failing to get the kill. I believe that regular damage done served to attract many people to them for a long time while the lack of actual kills caused them to move on.

In the end people tend to drift back to what brings the kills and that is the ability to focus fire. Even Clan ERLL with their long burn time can be kept on target by a skilled player or against a stationary foe. I do not care how stationary a mech is or skilled the pilot, 60 MRMs are going to paint the target head to toe along with the surrounding countryside.

[Bud Crue]

Ken Harkin, on 27 September 2024 - 09:31 AM, said:

...

I get what both of you are saying, but for me and those I drop with, we've all observed what we see as a fairly recent change in MRM behavior. It almost seems like the mythical "hit reg" issue some folks routinely complain about, in that the larger the throw of MRMs the more lack luster they seem to perform; like, the more missles thrown the less are actually registering on the target regardless of range.

I mean it wasn't really all that long ago when an MRM 60-80 felt like a fairly significant loadout. The default of the once mighty IV-4, a mech so potent in a brawl that the powers that were placed it as the only heavy in the top mech class of Solaris (which I recognize was circumstantial as hell and not evidence of anything). 1000 points of damage games in that thing was fairly frequent even for me (someone who routinely pushes in too early and dies first), but these days I don't see loadouts like that or with vastly larger throws, regardless of mech (waves at the Mean Baby), being effective damage dealers in any way (sand blasting or otherwise). Much like my complaint about MPLs being replaced with mid-range vomit or snubs, with MRMs I've gone back to SRM builds or even Thunderbolts where possible, as those systems are just more effective in their respective range brackets and still seem to do the damage that is expected of them.

Edited by Bud Crue, 27 September 2024 - 10:24 AM.

[BlueDevilspawn]

Bud Crue, on 27 September 2024 - 03:53 AM, said:

I mentioned the Grasshopper (as well as the others) as a mech that historically even when running a 6mpl (w/srm4) build I was still able to do work in (no matter how sub-optimal it may in fact be). I should have included the Quickdraw-5M to make the descending tonnage theme of my full sentence ("...and son, down the line") more clear. Regardless of the mech tonnage, on the vast majority where MPL boating is a primary boating option or even a secondary weapon possibility, their performance seems far less impressive than other weapon choices these days. In nearly any mech that I ran MPLs on I have switched to more traditional mid-range laser vomit, Snubs, or simply stopped running them because they perform like crap compared to anything else. There are indeed a few that they still feel viable on (a few mediums and lights). Boiled down: 6 tons of MPL seems always a sub-optimal choice compared to a Snub.

I'll have to take your word on MRMs but I swear that even at point blank, especially the bigger launchers, feel down right anemic for their weight, and they didn't used to.

In that case, a previously suboptimal build is even more suboptimal now. A Vulcan can run 5 mpl and is still strong. Spending 30 more tons to put on one more mpl (don’t get me started about the lack of sync a srm4 brings) is asinine. Your results are not justification for a MPL buff.

[Bud Crue]

BlueDevilspawn, on 27 September 2024 - 10:22 PM, said:

In that case, a previously suboptimal build is even more suboptimal now. A Vulcan can run 5 mpl and is still strong. Spending 30 more tons to put on one more mpl (don’t get me started about the lack of sync a srm4 brings) is asinine. Your results are not justification for a MPL buff.

Well, I guess because I played a such a suboptimal build at one time, and a Vulcan can be strong with 5 mpl, mpl's are performing just fine. Thanks for clearing that up.