18 replies to this topic

[l33tworks]

The new patch leaks say they are only boosting vertical lift for apache? Clearly both mechs need it equally badly. Sometimes it takes 30 seconds to get up a hill a normal jump jet would climb in 2.

Granted its not meant to the same as normal JJ but the patch changes should clearly apply to both mechs..

[Magic Pain Glove]

Apache had wrong values applied to it so its release day vertical lift (altitude gain) was weaker than the lift it was supposed to have. That's jut being corrected so its not a buff necessarily . Spectre lift is working as intended . Unless a decision is made to change their JJ flight behavior .

[l33tworks]

Well... looks like PGI missed their chance to fix this Apache bug because now all of a sudden there is nothing in the patch nodes about the Apache only Spectre got changes. So I assume they didn't even touch the Apache?

Oh well whatever lol.

Edited by l33tworks, 22 October 2024 - 02:57 PM.

[MechMaster059]

l33tworks, on 22 October 2024 - 02:47 PM, said:

Well... looks like PGI missed their chance to fix this Apache bug because now all of a sudden there is nothing in the patch nodes about the Apache ...

This is strange. I wonder if there is some kind of programming issue. These wing Jump Jets are dead as an idea if they don't get some kind of short duration initial jump buff. They're simply too cumbersome and too inferior compared to regular jump jets without such a buff to be worth using which would be sad.

PGI, if there is some programming issue I suggest as a workaround that you find a way to hard code into these mechs a single invisible Class V jump jet that consumes no slots or weight with its own 3.75s duration that players can't see in game or the mech lab. Activating the wing JJs would activate this invisible Class V JJ in parallel and its thrust duration bar would be consumed and regenerate in parallel with the wing JJs. (Obviously it would be consumed much faster) If either winged JJ is destroyed in combat then the invisible Class V JJ could be marked destroyed as well. Skills might or might not effect the invisible JJ depending upon how much programming work is required.

[Magic Pain Glove]

It was improved in the last patch , somehow heavy partial wing change was just not shown in the notes.

[MechMaster059]

Magic Pain Glove, on 25 October 2024 - 08:30 PM, said:

It was improved in the last patch , somehow heavy partial wing change was just not shown in the notes.

...

Like l33tworks, I had noticed the Apache change wasn't in the official patch notes so I tested the mech to be sure.

I couldn't tell any difference in how the wing JJs behaved compared to before the patch and genuinely believed PGI had either decided against making the change or couldn't make the change due to some programming issue.

I'm trying to cut down on how much I criticize this game because I know there are limited resources to make changes but the current implementation of winged JJs is inadequate. There are two major issues:

1. Taking several seconds to get over small obstacles makes them too cumbersome to use.
2. The forward velocity of the mech never stops decreasing while in the air.

Regarding issue #1, some kind of short duration initial boost is needed to get these mechs at least 5-7m into the air quickly. It could be as little as an extra 2.0 second duration boost of power when activated.

Regarding issue #2, my Apache has a top speed of 74kph. By the time it's run out of jump juice mid-air it's down to 8kph. It appears to be losing around 1.5 kph / second. This is especially odd on the Apache considering it looks like it has 2 large jet engines on it. This deceleration isn't an issue on regular jump jets because their burn doesn't last long enough for it to be all that noticeable. There's no expectation of being able to cruise forward in the air with regular jump jets.

This is not the case with winged JJs where one of their use cases is to fly across canyons shooting down upon whatever is in the canyon. You want to get to cover on the other side without lingering too long over the battlefield because mechs moving steadily in the air are an easy target.

A simple solution would be to cut the rate of forward deceleration on wing JJs in ½. A better solution would be to cap the amount of forward velocity lost at -¼ of lift-off velocity on top of the reduced deceleration.

[Magic Pain Glove]

Regarding point :
1. Its sort of intended , slow climb over obstacles is a given (3-5 seconds to climb mech sized obstacles , speed depending on how "flat" that obstacle is ) but it can also be used to propel your mech upwards fast and give you upwards momentum.
2.Have in mind that (while in air) your mech Speedometer lies . It doesn't show you your mechs "air speed" but it shows what walking speed of your mech would be if it lands at that exact moment.


So for the initial 10 seconds or so your air speed will carry over your ground speed with no speed loss whatsoever, after which a different "flight mechanic" takes over and you get a bit of speed loss but no more than a total of 0.5 of your max ground speed at which you started jumping . There was some talk about giving these mechs initial "hop" (10-20m jump) and then letting them glide from there but its also a bit complicated . Forward momentum introduces animation jank and some degree of mech animation desync and is one of the reasons why vectoring nodes got removed from the (skill tree) game in the first place. I really wish forward momentum didn't cause those problems but in MWO it does.

[MechMaster059]

Magic Pain Glove, on 26 October 2024 - 05:01 AM, said:

... So for the initial 10 seconds or so your air speed will carry over your ground speed with no speed loss whatsoever

Ah interesting. I guess my point #2 is moot then.

Magic Pain Glove, on 26 October 2024 - 05:01 AM, said:

There was some talk about giving these mechs initial "hop" (10-20m jump) and then letting them glide from there but its also a bit complicated . ...

So giving them some hop is possible? It wouldn't need to be anywhere near 20m. Even 10m probably wouldn't be necessary.

The problem is small ridges (even calling them "ridges" may be an exaggeration, between knee-high and chest-high on a heavy mech) like on Canyon Network and Hibernal rift where you're simply trying to move between levels. Doing so is very cumbersome in these wing JJ mechs. It's very frustrating trying to engage or flee from an enemy mech when operating around uneven terrain and you're left wondering "Does this mech have JJs or not!?".

Edited by MechMaster059, 26 October 2024 - 06:46 AM.

[Magic Pain Glove]

Quote

So giving them some hop is possible?

AFAIC potentially, it should be doable , yes .

Quote

"Does this mech have JJs or not!?".

The thing about these JJs is that you have to max speed and jump earlier before you are right next to that obstacle. I can show you some examples ( its not super intuitive I admit ) but in my experience while it is slower it can still scale stuff relatively alright (as long as its not a 90 degree angle surface ) which was my biggest fear initially. The ability to propel yourself upwards and shoot from relatively unexpected angles from extended period of time is the main use of the JJ itself . Extended airtime glider that can cross big distances while shooting at the stuff below . Not necessarily its ability to scale obstacles . It was intentionally made worse for any kind of poptarting since that was not its main purpose .

That said , one of the benefits of the partial wing system is that since they are locked equipment so at any point in time cauldron could potentially go back and change their flight behavior in some ways without impacting other jump jets in the game. If that was deemed necessary. Like you see with the above changes two very valuable things were changed on both .One of those was heat generation (that is the lowest in the game across all JJ classes ) and the other one was lift amount on the apache ( which was a incorrect value set to the correct corresponding amount for its tonnage ) and while people may not notice it right away apache has more lift now.

While Spectre may not still be in a place where it should ( IMHO , I still find it fun to play even in its current state ) . People are justifiably warry of buffing the Apache (not necessarily partial wings) any further past this point since its a very formidable mech given the right circumstances ( good map, less people with eyes and no sniper overwatch to shoot it down) while its in the air exposed if those conditions are met you can dish out big amounts of damage in a relatively short period of time .

[MechMaster059]

Magic Pain Glove, on 26 October 2024 - 09:11 PM, said:

...

Not necessarily its ability to scale obstacles . It was intentionally made worse for any kind of poptarting since that was not its main purpose .

...

These kinds of responses are frustrating to read. I'm fully aware wing JJs aren't supposed to be good at scaling obstacles and pop-tarting. I explicitly stated that in my original post (https://mwomercs.com...bersome-to-use/) about them as well. That's why in my reply to you above I stated they don't need "anywhere near 20m" of initial vertical jump. Don't act like I'm trying to turn these things into pop-tarts.

The reality is their current vertical jump is garbage, almost non-existent. If you walk up a shallow grade and activate them you can't even tell they're on or if you're still just walking. I have no problem with wing JJs being VERY BAD at trying to get over 20m+ terrain features, but it takes 4+ seconds just to get over a waist-high ridge or boulder which is nuts. This has serious ramifications in combat that make them frustrating to use. It feels unnatural and immersion breaking that it's so difficult to get over small obstacles.

It would be nice when PGI introduces a new weapon or feature that they finish the job 100% rather than stopping at 80% and leaving weird flaws that screw up the feature or unbalance the game. (Wing JJ zero initial jump, X-Pulse Lasers way too hot, HAGs no spread. etc...)

Edited by MechMaster059, 27 October 2024 - 03:52 AM.

[Magic Pain Glove]

Quote

If you walk up a shallow grade and activate them

This is something that you should avoid in the first place . You always want to have some amount of forward momentum .

Giving them any more vertical lift IMHO would actually hurt their gliding ability -> you dont want them to gain too much altitude fast in the first place as it would result in exposing them more faster than they need to.

I will demonstrate some examples you brought up in your earlier thread with post patch Apache :

Canyon Obstacle Example #1 :
https://youtu.be/tIhG0UWSdsM

Mining Obstacle Example #2:
https://youtu.be/hTzSsVjwZ24

How to clear larger size objects / obstacles with partial wings ( jumping early and letting long duration do its thing ) .
https://youtu.be/z8kEXc0lLK8

How to utilize small rounded objects / bumps / hills to gain altitude faster than you would have if you were to just to press W and Space over flat terrain.
https://youtu.be/PtVYxOgnbMs

Above video Illustrated in a picture :


As you can see if done well it really doesn't take them long to scale obstacles with some amount of getting used to + tricks when necessary. I really don't want to self advertise but feel free to join my twitch stream next time I play MWO , I can try and show how it can be done if above examples are not sufficient.

[MechMaster059]

I appreciate you taking the time to make thoughtful replies Magic. You are several notches above the typical forum poster and clearly put some time into creating these videos.

Magic Pain Glove, on 27 October 2024 - 06:09 AM, said:

This is something that you should avoid in the first place . You always want to have some amount of forward momentum .

I know... if I'm walking up a shallow grade then I don't need to use JJs at all, I can just keep walking. That wasn't the point. The point was the lift on wing JJs is so miniscule that you can't even perceive it compared to simply walking.

Magic Pain Glove, on 27 October 2024 - 06:09 AM, said:

Giving them any more vertical lift IMHO would actually hurt their gliding ability -> you dont want them to gain too much altitude fast in the first place as it would result in exposing them more faster than they need to.

That's why I'm only advocating for 5-7m of initial lift, a paltry amount that would merely enable these mechs to clear waist high obstacles quickly and nothing more.

Magic Pain Glove, on 27 October 2024 - 06:09 AM, said:

Canyon Obstacle Example #1 :
https://youtu.be/tIhG0UWSdsM

Starting the jump father back changes nothing. It just makes the transition to higher terrain look smoother. No time is actually saved. An enemy mech on the higher level would easily hide behind cover or drop down to the other side of the hill well before you finished clearing that head-height ridge.

Magic Pain Glove, on 27 October 2024 - 06:09 AM, said:

Mining Obstacle Example #2:
https://youtu.be/hTzSsVjwZ24

The context of this position in my other thread was that I was being fired upon with lock on missiles (ATMs?) by an enemy medium/light(?) mech that kept moving backwards to break my line of sight to him after firing each salvo of their missiles. Once again, getting over the obstacle isn't the problem, I know I can get up their eventually. The problem was I couldn't get enough height to gain line of sight and return fire before he backed off. He did this to me 2-3 times in a row and then ran away once I made a concerted effort to get up to the platform. 5-7m of initial jump would have at least allowed me to return fire, though I still would have had trouble chasing him which would be OK.

Magic Pain Glove, on 27 October 2024 - 06:09 AM, said:

How to clear larger size objects / obstacles with partial wings ( jumping early and letting long duration do its thing ) .
https://youtu.be/z8kEXc0lLK8

This is the only legit video. I use that building on The Mining Collective to test jump jet builds when I'm building a new mech. It's a fairly challenging height to get up to. (Typically need 3 JJs to get up there from the other side in one quick motion) This is acceptable. This is the kind of height that should require initiating a jump from farther away and taking more time to reach with a wing JJ mech.

Magic Pain Glove, on 27 October 2024 - 06:09 AM, said:

How to utilize small rounded objects / bumps / hills to gain altitude faster than you would have if you were to just to press W and Space over flat terrain.
https://youtu.be/PtVYxOgnbMs

................................................................................. using rounded objects on the battlefield........................ rriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiggght.

There's a term for this sort of thing... "gamey". It's gamey. This is not a reliable way to influence the movement of these mechs.

Edited by MechMaster059, 27 October 2024 - 11:46 AM.

[Meep Meep]

Ramping off objects works to get better upward momentum but ~only~ if you hit it right. If you don't bounce but slide up the object you lose all inherited momentum once you detach from it and you rise slowly again. Is it 'gamey'? Yes because its working around a flaw in the physics engine. It also takes some practice so you will have to put some time in the test maps to hone your object bump skills and figure out where you can boost on any given map.

[Meep Meep]

Magic Pain Glove, on 25 October 2024 - 08:30 PM, said:

It was improved in the last patch , somehow heavy partial wing change was just not shown in the notes.

Those heat changes. Does the jj skill tree effect those like normal jj? I tried full heat nodes along with jj juice nodes and I couldn't really tell much difference between full nodes and none. Bugged or am I just dense and can't tell.

[Magic Pain Glove]

It does affect them like normal Jump Jets. Lift speed nodes are useless because the base value is low . Everything else is very impactful especially JJ heat and JJ Burn Time duration especially + Shock Absorbance ( that lets you take 0 fall damage regardless of height when maxed out ) .

[Meep Meep]

Thanks!

[MechMaster059]

Meep Meep, on 27 October 2024 - 03:12 PM, said:

Ramping off objects works to get better upward momentum but ~only~ if you hit it right. ...

Meep Meep, on 27 October 2024 - 03:12 PM, said:

Is it 'gamey'? Yes because its working around a flaw in the physics engine

Meep Meep, on 27 October 2024 - 03:12 PM, said:

It also takes some practice so you will have to put some time in the test maps to hone your object bump skills and figure out where you can boost on any given map.

"hone your object bump skills"........................

I'm done arguing this point. This isn't game design. This is cope. I can't tell if it's hilarious or depressing that people are seriously advocating for gaming the terrain in this manner as a solution.

I've got a better idea, how about I simply stop playing the mech because wing JJs are a pain in the azz.

Edited by MechMaster059, 28 October 2024 - 01:01 AM.

[Meep Meep]

MechMaster059, on 28 October 2024 - 12:40 AM, said:

"hone your object bump skills"........................

I'm done arguing this point. This isn't game design. This is cope. I can't tell if it's hilarious or depressing that people are seriously advocating for gaming the terrain in this manner as a solution.

I've got a better idea, how about I simply stop playing the mech because wing JJs are a pain in the azz.

Sure. Thats your personal choice. But it doesn't make my statements any less true. Take some time in the test maps to work out how to use it and bang you too will be flying over mechs heads dumping silly amounts of dps into them.

[l33tworks]

Hi l33tworks here. You may remember me from such posts as OP.

I don't think this discussion needed such complexity. All they should have done was go ahead with the Apache initial lift and thrust changes, i.e an approx. 25% increase to the current values, and also do the same for the Spectre to keep up since its lighter and its lift needs to be a little bit more than the Apace (which was what my initial post was about)

So I am both surprised they did not do it for the Apache but also initially left the spectre out.

My reasoning was they thought the Spectre had "enough" lift (it doesn't) and they were worried the Apache might get too good because of its otherwise good performance due to its DPS.

But this game is hardly about DPS, its about poke and hide. Secondly even with a 100% increase in the values it will not because a pop tarter because

A: its lift is still going to ridiculoisly suck
B: its main weapons a RACs a damage over time weapon that does not correspond with pop tarting

So Its a bit of a wonder they pulled they changes as it would mostly have made the mechs less frustrating to use.