42 replies to this topic

[Evan OMellin]

In recent years it's become quite rare to encounter mechs, especially heavy ones, equipped for close combat. SRMs, LBX and generally all weapons with splash damage have lost popularity due to the highly effective of PPFLD builds. Things are slightly better with AC20 and snub-noses, but getting close enough for them to be effective is often not feasible, leaving such builds idle for most of the match.

Brawlers require a high level of concentration during piloting, as any mistake at close range can lead to a swift demise. Take the Mad Dog with the classic 6 SRM+Artemis build, for example. Five years ago it was a legendary machine that devoured everything around. Now it just gathers dust in the lab due to its zero effectiveness. SRMs seem to have stopped dealing any significant damage compared to other weapons in the same class, like snubs, mags, etc. Considering the current game patch's balance shift towards long and mid-range combat with high DPS weapons (like dakka and x-pulse lasers) and precision damage (like gauss rifles, heavy lasers, and dual lasers), it's fair to say that the close combat class is in its death throes.

Please share your thoughts on this matter. Among all the brawlers that belong to me, only Orions (both Clan and Inner Sphere) and the Scorch work consistently for me, while missile Kit Foxes, Mad Dogs, and other mechs of this type behave capriciously and don't deal significant damage in a match.

[Meep Meep]

If you ask a tippy top jarls player if brawling is still viable they will roll out in some type of brawler build and farm the enemy team. For lesser t1 mortals brawling is a wee bit harder because aim is good at t1 and usually there is overwatch on the brawling areas. It's still around in the lower tiers because everything works way down there.

[Remover of Obstacles]

"Some" (cough, most) of the maps favor long range. Especially for the Domination mode.

Pushing against a sniper is tough.
https://imgur.com/wkHEePw

So, brawlers are hiding until mid-end game, leaving your team short handed.
https://www.twitch.t...deos/1967184460
In the words of MGP, "Hide in the corner. Keep hiding."

Why would you brawl, when it is so much easier to farm 1k+ with long range?

Sniper play style should have a place in MWO, but I worry about its negative impact on match fun with soup queue abuse and limiting the majority of weapon systems to only be viable on the other team's pug armor.

[Lincoln Cross]

I don't know about that cause I'm still here. That's all I do is brawl. Whether its my Mist Lynx, Shadowcat, Blood Asp or Highlander, I'm brawling.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Perception is always an odd thing. The reason I say that is you mentioned is because you mentioned X-pulse lasers are a reason why brawling has disappeared where as in my opinion X-pulse lasers are best used brawling. I mean they pretty short ranged considering and function much like a machine gun in that you just hold down the button and fire until heat becomes an issue. I find it easier and more effective to do that in brawl range.

[Meep Meep]

Lincoln Cross, on 12 October 2024 - 02:59 PM, said:

I don't know about that cause I'm still here. That's all I do is brawl. Whether its my Mist Lynx, Shadowcat, Blood Asp or Highlander, I'm brawling.

Because in tier 5 any fit and mech is viable. Not trying to bash t5 just saying that the level of play there is ultra casual and situational awareness is almost non existent.

[Bud Crue]

Remover of Obstacles, on 12 October 2024 - 01:07 PM, said:

Why would you brawl, when it is so much easier to farm 1k+ with long range?

Sniper play style should have a place in MWO, but I worry about its negative impact on match fun with soup queue abuse and limiting the majority of weapon systems to only be viable on the other team's pug armor.

At some point in this thread one or more notable players, who may or may not be members of the Cauldron will be along to tell us that long range play is no more or less situational than any other play style, and that snipers are not only rare in all matches and on all maps, but even when present are almost always ineffectual.

Anyway.

As to the OP, the folks I play with almost always brawl no matter what and we see plenty of dedicated brawlers during NA prime time. And while the frustration of not being able to respond to long range opponents who are shooting you within 20 seconds from drop on most of the popular maps does indeed suck, it is only truly daunting when the enemy team has a preponderance of those "ineffectual" snipers (maybe 1 out of 4-5 matches) and you keep getting maps that favor them (which many nights is most maps that get voted for, e.g., Emerald and HPG especially) that it can really make you feel like brawling is dead.

[pbiggz]

Specialist strategies like brawling and sniping are feast or famine; they rely on you doing it right, and your targets responding to it wrong.

Those who think brawlers are bad because snipers are too good are probably not positioning themselves correctly. If you, a brawler, meet a sniper inside your effective range, that sniper is dead unless you *really* suck at aiming. If a sniper meets a brawler in their effective range, the brawler is dead.

There was a particularly adversarial gentleman on this forum who spent many months harping on the unfairness of snipers and the weakness of brawlers; upon being interrogated more pointedly, it was revealed he as a brawler, was crossing open territory without cover to try and brawl snipers, and then getting mad when he got shot dead before he could make it to his targets. That was fun.

Edited by pbiggz, 14 October 2024 - 09:44 AM.

[Pixel Hunter]

pbiggz, on 14 October 2024 - 09:43 AM, said:

Those who think brawlers are bad because snipers are too good are probably not positioning themselves correctly.

that's the thing though, sniping play style also rewards and punishes positioning, but a brawler has to cover ground and position all the way up to the target and rely on a team to back them up. With a lot of the "sniper bowl" maps we have that can be extra hard for brawl mechs. This is all compounded by the prevalence of ECM in the game now.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Pixel Hunter, on 14 October 2024 - 11:47 AM, said:

This is all compounded by the prevalence of ECM in the game now.

Wat, how is ECM making brawling harder....that's a new one.

Pixel Hunter, on 14 October 2024 - 11:47 AM, said:

brawler has to cover ground and position all the way up to the target and rely on a team to back them up.

A sniper has to have a team back them up or they get isolated and murdered by lights or murderballs. I think the biggest issue, is that people keep trying to take brawl mechs that are stupid slow and expecting to do well with them. That really shouldn't ever be the case, slow brawl being powerful typically means either TTK is absurd that trade damage becomes pretty meaningless against it, or that fast brawl is OP even compared to slow brawl.

Outside of bad map design that is, some maps are just badly designed.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 14 October 2024 - 12:59 PM.

[1453 R]

Doubling up what Quicksilver mentioned. When some people think 'brawl', they think the days of the 2013 Fatlas - Big Slow Brawl that moves maybe - maybe - 50kph absolute tops wading across a map half the size of most current maps to duke it out exclusively within 270 meters in an orgy of iceberg-grinding metal destruction. They think Gojira, Fatnirs, Fatlases, maybe the occasional Fattlemaster, charging at a blistering thirty klicks across open ground, and then they wonder why that doesn't work.

Or, to take the OP's mentioned units, he talks about the ASRM-6 Mad Doge. Mad Doges aren't 'brawlers' - they're strikers. Those things have had glass jaws since they released. They're still a Bad Day to encounter by surprise, but they have to play more canny than they used to before a decade of power creep. And they're also a 60-tonner in a game dominated by Ultrafatbros. Any version of MWO where Koloss exists is a version of MWO where everything else is just not as useful as it used to be. They can work, but you need to accept that the game is not fought exclusively at 270 meters anymore. Mad Doges hit 81kph stock - use that mobility to find better angles and positions.

One of my absolute best 'Mechs is my HLF-C specifically because it can easily outrun anything it can't outgun, and it can move quickly enough to jump on overextended snipers before they can withdraw without having to blast through open ground to do it. And because I keep in mind, when I run it, that I'm not a BSB trying to iceberg my way into the enemy team but instead a nimble hunter-killer designed to harry the flanks, pursue wounded targets, and bully enemy outriders. Nakedly charging a battle line will get me dead.

Quit charging battle lines, whether they're blue-laser battle lines or AC/10 battle lines.

[Ihlrath]

Bud Crue, on 14 October 2024 - 06:26 AM, said:

At some point in this thread one or more notable players, who may or may not be members of the Cauldron will be along to tell us that long range play is no more or less situational than any other play style, and that snipers are not only rare in all matches and on all maps, but even when present are almost always ineffectual.

I see you've been here before, sir!

[Xypherious]

Many of my 'mechs are brawlers/short ranged, and I've nearly abandoned playing them in Tier 5 due to the sniping and teams that don't support that playstyle,(or play in any coordinated fashion) like heavies and assaults being afraid to take damage.

[Evan OMellin]

1453 R, on 14 October 2024 - 03:55 PM, said:

Doubling up what Quicksilver mentioned. When some people think 'brawl', they think the days of the 2013 Fatlas - Big Slow Brawl that moves maybe - maybe - 50kph absolute tops wading across a map half the size of most current maps to duke it out exclusively within 270 meters in an orgy of iceberg-grinding metal destruction. They think Gojira, Fatnirs, Fatlases, maybe the occasional Fattlemaster, charging at a blistering thirty klicks across open ground, and then they wonder why that doesn't work.

Or, to take the OP's mentioned units, he talks about the ASRM-6 Mad Doge. Mad Doges aren't 'brawlers' - they're strikers. Those things have had glass jaws since they released. They're still a Bad Day to encounter by surprise, but they have to play more canny than they used to before a decade of power creep. And they're also a 60-tonner in a game dominated by Ultrafatbros. Any version of MWO where Koloss exists is a version of MWO where everything else is just not as useful as it used to be. They can work, but you need to accept that the game is not fought exclusively at 270 meters anymore. Mad Doges hit 81kph stock - use that mobility to find better angles and positions.

One of my absolute best 'Mechs is my HLF-C specifically because it can easily outrun anything it can't outgun, and it can move quickly enough to jump on overextended snipers before they can withdraw without having to blast through open ground to do it. And because I keep in mind, when I run it, that I'm not a BSB trying to iceberg my way into the enemy team but instead a nimble hunter-killer designed to harry the flanks, pursue wounded targets, and bully enemy outriders. Nakedly charging a battle line will get me dead.

Quit charging battle lines, whether they're blue-laser battle lines or AC/10 battle lines.

Whether it’s a brawler or a striker, the terminology here doesn’t really matter. I used Mad Dog as an example of a mech that no longer performs well in close combat, despite having excelled in the past. It’s one of the few mechs that used to win games consistently. Of course, it has always been quite fragile due to its somewhat unfortunate hitboxes, but with the introduction of new mechs and changes in balance, including the nerfing of SRM, it has become nearly useless in both quick play and faction wars. However, it can still show some potential in 1v1 matches when combined with SRMs and lasers. The point I’m trying to make is that the developers have disrupted the balance of the game, both by introducing new assault mechs that support alpha strikes with damage over 80 and by encouraging dakka boats with incredible DPS. Undoubtedly, player preference has shifted towards long-range combat, and the design of most maps favors this playstyle.
All of the above has led to the extinction of most close-combat builds.

Edited by Evan OMellin, 16 October 2024 - 01:39 AM.

[Pixel Hunter]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 14 October 2024 - 12:58 PM, said:

Wat, how is ECM making brawling harder....that's a new one.

allows snipers to go un noticed more often and makes it harder for the rest of the team to pin down a sniper while the brawlers move up. As to "fast brawl is OP", maybe but that's more of a "striker" mech. With mechs doing stupid pinpoint now you need to get in very close and have enough armor to buffer 65+ alphas if you're gonna do DPS damage. With mid range laser vomit gone are the days of an AC-20 being scary.

Edited by Pixel Hunter, 16 October 2024 - 06:10 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Evan OMellin, on 16 October 2024 - 12:20 AM, said:

I used Mad Dog as an example of a mech that no longer performs well in close combat

The mad dog has never been a great brawler, even during the meta where the Gargoyle and Nova were your best option and the same speed. These days 80kph just isn't fast enough, especially for something with SRMs which typically require more speed.

Pretty sure the Linebacker has pretty much always eclipsed the Mad Dog for brawling.

Pixel Hunter, on 16 October 2024 - 06:05 AM, said:

allows snipers to go un noticed more often and makes it harder for the rest of the team to pin down a sniper while the brawlers move up.

Only if you don't have eyes, and by that logic, ECM helps brawlers too.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 16 October 2024 - 06:07 AM.

[Swamp Ass MkII]

I guess, you need to have a second look. I think the longest range mechs I run regularly, are in the area of 700 meters. More common I am running Vipers ith various -200 meter builds, recent addition SMN-B w/8 SRM4's, and 2 SSRM 2's.

Yes, I can agree, that the days of the DPS builds are coming to an end, becoming more of a high single shot alpha and duck back into cover. This I will say is more common among the assaults and heavies.

Still... I rather have fun, over giving a flying **** about personal stats, so I run crazy stupid short builds that I get into lot, and lots of trouble with. Yeah, I may die first, but, by damned, Imma taking someone with me, or at least close!

I love running the maddog a, haven't in a minute as there are better srm mechs in my inventory now, but, I still break it out, and still push 1k a game with it. Gotta stay hidden, have a little patience, and stike smart. Get caugh in the open, yes, it's going down. Get swarmed by lights, yeah, it's going down, like everything else. It's when people think, oh it's another maddog, and ignore you, that the danger to them grows substantially higher! I thik's imma break all my builds out today! It's a maddog kinda day afterall!

Edited by Swamp Ass MkII, 17 October 2024 - 06:35 AM.

[Vonbach]

They've been trying to kill off brawling for years. Something like 70% of the maps are sniper toilet bowl maps
tailor made for sniper tards.

Edited by Vonbach, 02 November 2024 - 03:22 PM.

[pbiggz]

Vonbach, on 02 November 2024 - 03:22 PM, said:

They've been trying to kill off brawling for years. Something like 70% of the maps are sniper toilet bowl maps
tailor made for sniper tards.

If you walk into the middle of the toilet bowl without cover and get picked apart by snipers then *you deserved to die*. If you find yourself continuously getting mowed down by snipers then you need to ask yourself how you keep getting into their line of fire. The new maps are generalized; there's spaces for all strategies to flourish if you can position yourself. The old maps were not standardized, that's why you think the cauldron and PGI are trying to kill off brawlers. They aren't, you just aren't adapting to a changing game.

Hop to it!

[Dryderian]

Short answer:Yes, because of power creep. The Battletech boardgame is a strategical game with a luck factor. MWO was a tactical game that resembled the boardgame in the beginning, I joined it quite late, but the remnants were still there.

It has moved and moves towards being more a fast paced shooter. So the weightclass seems to get redundant.

Which happens, when the company does not ground itself in the niche it has, but wants to be like Call of Duty, Rainbow Six Siege, Valorant et cetera. Regardless of the foundation it has to be unique.

Faction play should have been the place people should end up. I did not and that is the real thing Piranha should put some deep thinking about. The end game fighting for territory among the stars and systems to make it rewarding for players.

Edited by Dryderian, 02 November 2024 - 08:08 PM.