50 replies to this topic

[martian]

VixNix, on 30 October 2024 - 05:12 AM, said:

Agree the new limits/maximums are crap

Actually, the change makes sense when it comes to balancing the teams.

VixNix, on 30 October 2024 - 05:12 AM, said:

2 man can take out 20 tons or 200 tons

Actually, 2-man must take out at least 40 tons (2*20 tons).

VixNix, on 30 October 2024 - 05:12 AM, said:

what good is this change?

To mitigate the situation when some team drops as too light or too heavy because of some premade that it includes.

VixNix, on 30 October 2024 - 05:12 AM, said:

It wont help balance, PGI doesn't care about balance

Actually, those tonnage limits changes serve as the best proof that PGI still cares about the balance, since those limits directly influence the balance. Otherwise, they would not changed those tonnage limits.

VixNix, on 30 October 2024 - 05:12 AM, said:

they only care about what a certain select group of people care about, part of the reason there are so few players.

That is possible, but those new tonnage limits are obligatory not for "a certain select group of people", but for every premade group that intends to drop in the game.

VixNix, on 30 October 2024 - 05:12 AM, said:

Tried a 4 man group last night and everyone said f this lets go play a diff game

• Quickplay Group changes:
  
  • 3 man quick play group minimum tonnage increased from 80 to 120.
    
  • 3 man quick play group maximum tonnage reduced from 255 to 210.
    
  • 4 man quick play group tonnage minimum increased from 120 to 160.
    
  • 4 man quick play group tonnage maximum reduced from 280 to 240.

So instead of dropping as 1 light 'Mech and 3 Assaults, you have to drop as 1 light 'Mech, 1 Heavy and 2 Assaults?

Such a horrible situation.

[VixNix]

martian, on 30 October 2024 - 07:05 AM, said:

*SNIP*

So instead of dropping as 1 light 'Mech and 3 Assaults, you have to drop as 1 light 'Mech, 1 Heavy and 2 Assaults?

Such a horrible situation.

So instead of bringing what ever mechs we want we are limited due to PGI's in ability to balance the game other wise.

Others have already posted about one team with 8 assaults vs a team with few or none...

If PGI wanted to balance they CAN do that by getting as close to possible on tonnage between teams without limiting group tonnage.

[Void Angel]

No, they can't.

Your Great Idea has been tried, and proven impractical in testing. Matches simply did not start in an acceptable timeframe - or sometimes at all. This particular balance issue isn't just PGI's "inability." They've made their mistakes, sure - but this is an inherent function of things that are essential to the IP universe. Things like 'mech design, equipment space/tonnage, and stock builds. So your implication that PGI doesn't want to improve balance because they "CAN" do something that's not actually possible in practice is... unimpressive. It's like telling people who complain about those Assault-heavy enemy teams that they "CAN" just headshot all of those slow Assaults. Problem solved!

Regardless, because you already had a weight limit, your response to Martian completely sidesteps the point. Groups aren't suddenly now being prevented from "playing what they want;" that was already happening, and had been happening for years. They're being restricted slightly more, so that they can't run some extreme lance compositions - and that does cause problems. Whether it's a skilled team running wolfpacks against low-tiers who haven't learned to deal with that, or, shall we say "overly optimistic" players leaving too much tonnage off the board, low-tonnage lances can seriously disrupt match quality. On the other extreme, when matchmaking drops even average players with significantly more tonnage on one team than another, it's a problem - and a dedicated team of high-skill players can leverage the tonnage of large 'mechs with complementary builds and superior coordination, sometimes to an extent that allows them to dominate the battlefield to an outsize degree. To an extent, this of course their privilege - after all, it's a team game, and they've earned their skill. But since premade groups are not required to play, there needs to be some accommodation to allow solo players to compete as well.

So both extremes - low-tonnage and high-tonnage premade lances - can be a problem. Is it enough of a problem, enough of the time, to warrant a change? Well, the people with the game telemetry data think it is, so here we are. It's hardly the end of the world, and it's not punishing people for being good, or for having friends. It's just making small adjustments to accommodations that were already there, in an attempt to improve the match experience for everyone - by balancing the game. If PGI "wanted" to do that, this is one of the avenues they could approach.

Edited by Void Angel, 30 October 2024 - 02:43 PM.

[martian]

VixNix, on 30 October 2024 - 08:59 AM, said:

So instead of bringing what ever mechs we want we are limited due to PGI's in ability to balance the game other wise.

First, there have always been some limits, so this is nothing new.

Second, there is no reason why it should be balanced "otherwise". If the problem is too low or too big tonnage used by the 3-man or 4-man premades, then it is logical to change those tonnage limits.

VixNix, on 30 October 2024 - 08:59 AM, said:

Others have already posted about one team with 8 assaults vs a team with few or none...

Exactly!

And as I already mentioned above, those new tonnage limits restrict the premades from dropping too light on one team and too heavy on the other team. In combination with what casual solo players bring, it results in the gross imbalance between both teams, that you have just described.

Those new limits mitigate such problems.

VixNix, on 30 October 2024 - 08:59 AM, said:

If PGI wanted to balance they CAN do that by getting as close to possible on tonnage between teams without limiting group tonnage.

First, the matchmaker has already problems with sorting the players according to their respective Tiers to launch the game - especially during some times of the day, when the number of active players is low. Adding another variable would certainly make waiting for the game much longer.

Second, if the tonnage brought by the premades is a problem, you simply change those tonnage limits. It quick, simple and it deals directly with the problem. I should also mention that MWO has got no engineering support, so some big matchmaker changes would be impossible anyway, while changing those tonnage limits is a matter of adjusting four numerical values.

[VixNix]

Void Angel, on 30 October 2024 - 01:42 PM, said:

No, they can't.

Yes they can, they choose not to.

Void Angel, on 30 October 2024 - 01:42 PM, said:

...and it's not punishing people for being good, or for having friends.

Yes it is, when they choose not to play due to this new limitation.

Edited by VixNix, 31 October 2024 - 06:39 AM.

[VixNix]

martian, on 31 October 2024 - 12:10 AM, said:

First, the matchmaker has already problems with sorting the players according to their respective Tiers to launch the game - especially during some times of the day, when the number of active players is low. Adding another variable would certainly make waiting for the game much longer.

PGI could fix this, they broke it in the first place driving away player base...

martian, on 31 October 2024 - 12:10 AM, said:

Second, if the tonnage brought by the premades is a problem, you simply change those tonnage limits. It quick, simple and it deals directly with the problem. I should also mention that MWO has got no engineering support, so some big matchmaker changes would be impossible anyway, while changing those tonnage limits is a matter of adjusting four numerical values.

Is the problem tonnage by groups, I don't think that is the big problem, I think the big problem is that they don't even try to balance tonnage across teams.

Edited by VixNix, 31 October 2024 - 06:42 AM.

[martian]

VixNix, on 31 October 2024 - 06:37 AM, said:

PGI could fix this, they broke it in the first place driving away player base...

No.

Unless you - or PGI - can make a miracle and attract a massive amount of new players. Until then, there would be no fix coming for that direction.

VixNix, on 31 October 2024 - 06:37 AM, said:

Is the problem tonnage by groups, I don't think that is the big problem, I think the big problem is that they don't even try to balance tonnage across teams.

This is a part of my previous post that you chose to ignore:

martian, on 31 October 2024 - 12:10 AM, said:

And as I already mentioned above, those new tonnage limits restrict the premades from dropping too light on one team and too heavy on the other team. In combination with what casual solo players bring, it results in the gross imbalance between both teams, that you have just described.

Those new limits mitigate such problems.

You can not complain that "they don't even try to balance tonnage across teams" and simultaneously complain that PGI has introduced a specific measure that aims to ensure some tonnage balance across teams, i.e. that ideally no team's tonnage is too low or too heavy.

Edited by martian, 31 October 2024 - 08:25 AM.

[VixNix]

martian, on 31 October 2024 - 07:30 AM, said:

This is a part of my previous post that you chose to ignore:

PGI ran them off, and the FUN people who respond to questions on how to this or that with responses that amount to 'get good' don't help to bring them back.


I can, as you do, choose what to respond to and what to ignore...

PGI, does nothing to balance tonnage across teams, if they did then trying to balance teams by limiting group tonnage would not be required. So YES I can complain, especially since this makes those I want to group up and play the game with NOT WANT TO PLAY!

[martian]

VixNix, on 31 October 2024 - 08:30 AM, said:

PGI ran them off, and the FUN people who respond to questions on how to this or that with responses that amount to 'get good' don't help to bring them back.

Irrelevant and having nothing to do with the new tonnage limits as introduced in the October game patch.

VixNix, on 31 October 2024 - 08:30 AM, said:

I can, as you do, choose what to respond to and what to ignore...

I take it that that part of my post was truthful and you were unable to refute it.

VixNix, on 31 October 2024 - 08:30 AM, said:

PGI, does nothing to balance tonnage across teams, if they did then trying to balance teams by limiting group tonnage would not be required. So YES I can complain,

... and your complaining is absurd because those new tonnage limits directly influence the tonnage available to 3- and 4-man premades and thus the tonnage balance across teams, since premades are a significant part of many Quick Play teams - as you have repeatedly been told a few times.

VixNix, on 31 October 2024 - 08:30 AM, said:

especially since this makes those I want to group up and play the game with NOT WANT TO PLAY!

Have you told them the terrible truth that MWO is full of various limits and that those limits are adjusted as necessary?

• The Faction Play has its own tonnage limits. One player can not drop in four 100-tonners there ...
  
• The Quick Play has its own tonnage limits for premades that have been recently adjusted for better tonnage balance across teams.
  
• The currently inactive Group Queue also had its tonnage limits.
  
• The currently inactive Solaris 7 game mode also had its limits.
  
• The Event Queue also often comes with some tonnage limits or weight class limits.

[Corr144]

The recent changes really feel out of place. When PGI abandoned the group queue it made sense, since matchmaking took way too long. But this? 12DG regularly has two 3-4 man-groups on the field, but now we're strugglying to find any useful or funny mech combinations. We can't even do our beloved once-a-day Urbie-Drop anymore...

[Void Angel]

VixNix, on 31 October 2024 - 06:33 AM, said:

Yes they can, they choose not to.

No, they can't, and you were told why. Refusing to acknowledge that information isn't a viable alternative to losing the argument - which you just did.

Nor are you being "punished" by your own choices about whether to play the game. If losing out on a joke drop of trash cans, or playing a different Lance mixture, is destroying your ability to enjoy MWO, what did you really enjoy about it in the first place? What about the game has actually changed? The only thing is that you can't bring the precise combos you used to bring, whether low or high - nothing else about the game has changed. The types of build you can field are the same; even the general weight classes aren't going to change that much: it's the difference between bringing 60 tons each instead of 70.

You really can't find anything ten tons lighter that you want to play? With all the 'mechs you own? Come on. The reason I'm not impressed by this complaint is that you are literally staring at a closet full of clothes and insisting you have nothing to wear.

Edited by Void Angel, 31 October 2024 - 05:40 PM.

[VixNix]

Void Angel, on 31 October 2024 - 05:21 PM, said:

No, they can't, and you were told why. Refusing to acknowledge that information isn't a viable alternative to losing the argument - which you just did.

Nor are you being "punished" by your own choices about whether to play the game. If losing out on a joke drop of trash cans, or playing a different Lance mixture, is destroying your ability to enjoy MWO, what did you really enjoy about it in the first place? What about the game has actually changed? The only thing is that you can't bring the precise combos you used to bring, whether low or high - nothing else about the game has changed. The types of build you can field are the same; even the general weight classes aren't going to change that much: it's the difference between bringing 60 tons each instead of 70.

You really can't find anything ten tons lighter that you want to play? With all the 'mechs you own? Come on. The reason I'm not impressed by this complaint is that you are literally staring at a closet full of clothes and insisting you have nothing to wear.

Yes they can, and making excuses for PGI doesn't help...

I can't get friends to play because of the restrictions which are 'only worse' than they used to be...

Every group can take out what ever they want IF PGI balances based on team tonnage, explained this over and over and y'all like seekers just keep passing out excuses for PGI...

The attitude of just go play something else is one of the reason the player base is so small and the wait times take so long etc...

[Void Angel]

Again, they can't - it. has. been. tried. Explaining to you - over and over again, like throwing books at a rock wall - that this is so, (and why it is so) is not "passing out excuses." Ex cathedra pronouncements amounting to "Nu-UH! They can do it because I want them to!" are not reasonable responses to anything. But, your post does exemplify a strange phenomenon that crops up over and over again in any debate: people engaging in bad thought will very often accuse their critics of engaging in the same fallacies, etc. that they are doing themselves. It's interesting to watch.

Whilst hand-waving away objections to your incorrect statements as "excuses" for PGI, you have accused your critics of ignoring your so-cogent explanations while "handing out excuses" for PGI. But in doing that, you ignored the actual arguments and objections presented, in order to reiterate your irrational premise: that having to bring a Shadow Hawk instead of a Thunderbolt somehow ruins the game.

The claim itself is just outrageous. What do you do if someone wants to play a different 'mech than last match? Is there a spreadsheet that contains all the 'mechs each friend refuses to play for some arbitrary reason? Do you have a matrix of allowable team compositions? It's like the tri-dimensional chess version of those brain teaser problems they sell in booklets at supermarket checkstands: "Billy, Shandra, Max, and Jimothy are all in a Lance together. The Lance has 240 tons available, but Max refuses to pilot Spiders. Shandra will only pilot the same weight class as Jimothy, and..."

It's hard to imagine how much you were really enjoying the game if you have to field an arbitrary amount of tonnage to enjoy yourselves. If this is sine qua non for you, you weren't long for the game anyway, whether you realize it or not. But more importantly, you've accused PGI of "driving away the players," here, and are arguing against a change that was made specifically to avoid doing that. This kind of incoherent foot-stamping isn't going to get you anywhere; no game developer is going to listen to the game-feedback equivalent of "I don't care if we don't have money! You can get money if you wanted to, I want to go to Disneyland," when their own data and loads of forum feedback have cited premade teams in the group queue as a major factor in bad match experiences - which actually does "drive" people away from the game.

So if you want to be taken seriously, put forth a serious argument. Two people in two pages giving negative feedback isn't going to tip the scales; you don't really think they're making this change in the first place for a couple of forum posters, do you? So actually explain why 40 tons wrecked your game experience so much your friends won't play any more. Give some useful feedback, instead of insulting the people you need to convince if you want the tonnage changes rolled back.

[Aethos]

This was a dumb move by the developers. The game is built on group / unit play and instead they choose to listen to the solo cry babies who will leave the game before the unit players do.

It was a lesson learned that if you don't want to deal with getting mopped up every other game, join a unit, make some friends, and learn how to play the game with multiple team mates. This game is not a 1v1 shooter like Halo or Call of Duty. This is honestly one of the few FPS games that require massive amounts of teamwork and positioning due to the physics of MWO and the time it takes to move mechs on the map depending on chassis - and here they are saying we need to nerf that teamwork.

Instead of focusing on the real issues that are hampering gameplay quality like 1) no loadout selection after Map selection and 2) imbalanced new weapons(C-AP, Magshot, Thunderbolt, Plasma) and new LGD mech's with hardpoints and armor values that are far better than they should be. (Bullshark, Aksum, Moonwalker, Emu, Warlord) - Oh and here comes a 10 UAC2 Bane. 'Please pay now to win', "We just don't want these mech's in group que because they are OP"

keep chasing the dedicated players out. I'm sure the current population numbers look great!

As stated above, its now harder to get friends to group up and its now preferential to bring that same stupid OP assault into quick play, just by myself. Oh and I can still sync drop with my unit. Because no one is left to play the game anymore!

Edited by Aethos, 02 November 2024 - 06:49 AM.

[Void Angel]

Oh lord, now it's conspiracy theories about nerfing teamwork; but, simultaneously, also about making pay-to-win 'mechs and then "punishing" players for fielding them in teams - making the "dedicated players" less likely to buy them because, uh, reasons. Yeah, reasons! Stop making OP Assault 'mechs, PGI! And stop limiting how much I can play them, because now none of my friends want to play! Nobody wants to drop without the OP 'mechs I'm accusing you of making!

You, uh... you do realize that basing your complaint on the power of teaming up in Assault 'mechs vindicates PGI's given reasons for the change, right? Right?!

[martian]

Aethos, on 02 November 2024 - 06:32 AM, said:

This was a dumb move by the developers. The game is on group / unit play and instead they choose to listen to the solo cry babies who will leave the game before the unit players do.

No, this game is not "built on group / unit play".

The fact that in Spring 2020 the Solo Queue was the only MWO game mode left, that still had active players, should tell you something ...

Aethos, on 02 November 2024 - 06:32 AM, said:

It was a lesson learned that if you don't want to deal with getting mopped up every other game, join a unit, make some friends, and learn how to play the game with multiple team mates. This game is not a 1v1 shooter like Halo or Call of Duty.

I would like to remind you that every MWO game mode "built on group / unit play" is dead. Period.

The Community Warfare / Faction Warfare / Faction Play is dead for all practical purposes. Yes, the same concept advertised by PGI as ...

Piranha Games Inc. said:

FACTION PLAY
...
Form a Unit

The goal of any MechWarrior is to eventually form a Unit and band together with other skilled pilots.

... has utterly failed.


Or the failed Group Queue - another nice example. The Group Queue died sometime in 2019 (earlier, actually) and when PGI realized it, they added your "groups" and "units" into the Solo Queue in 2020 ...

I can even tell you why PGI did it: Because the Solo Queue still had a lot of players in it. And at the same time, the Group Queue was totally devoid of your grouped players.

Aethos, on 02 November 2024 - 06:32 AM, said:

This is honestly one of the few FPS games that require massive amounts of teamwork and positioning due to the physics of MWO and the time it takes to move mechs on the map depending on chassis - and here they are saying we need to nerf that teamwork.

LOL

Those new tonnage limits have nothing to do with your teamwork. You can play exactly as before. Those new tonnage limits have only changed the allowed tonnage, nothing else.

So instead of dropping as 1 light 'Mech and 3 Assaults, you have to drop as 1 light 'Mech, 1 Heavy and 2 Assaults. Or your teamwork does not work, if you replace 1 Assault with 1 Heavy?

Aethos, on 02 November 2024 - 06:32 AM, said:

Instead of focusing on the real issues that are hampering gameplay quality like 1) no loadout selection after Map selection and 2) imbalanced new weapons(C-AP, Magshot, Thunderbolt, Plasma) and new LGD mech's with hardpoints and armor values that are far better than they should be. (Bullshark, Aksum, Moonwalker, Emu, Warlord) - Oh and here comes a 10 UAC2 Bane. 'Please pay now to win', "We just don't want these mech's in group que because they are OP"

Irrelevant and having nothing to do with the new tonnage limits as introduced in the October game patch.

By the way, the Group Queue was removed from the game in 2020.

Aethos, on 02 November 2024 - 06:32 AM, said:

keep chasing the dedicated players out. I'm sure the current population numbers look great!

From what I have heard, some casual solo players have actually quit. They were annoyed by the imbalance brought into the former Solo Queue by premades.

Aethos, on 02 November 2024 - 06:32 AM, said:

As stated above, its now harder to get friends to group up and its now preferential to bring that same stupid OP assault into quick play, just by myself. Oh and I can still sync drop with my unit. Because no one is left to play the game anymore!

So, first you are telling us that new Assault 'Mechs are OP: "new LGD mech's with hardpoints and armor values that are far better than they should be. (Bullshark, Aksum, Moonwalker, Emu, Warlord) - Oh and here comes a 10 UAC2 Bane. 'Please pay now to win'," and then you are complaining that now it is harder to deploy in those OP Assault 'Mechs as premade: "its now harder to get friends to group up and its now preferential to bring that same stupid OP assault into quick play, just by myself.".

It sounds as the best confirmation that the PGI's decision to adjust those tonnage limits was correct. At least we will no longer see in the game one team with a premade in four junk light 'Mechs and the other team with your premade in those 'Pay now to win' 'Mechs.

LOL

Edited by martian, 02 November 2024 - 08:26 AM.

[Aethos]

Void Angel you've posted more in the forums than games played - and Martian never plays Assaults! Go figure!

[Aethos]

Void Angel, on 02 November 2024 - 07:01 AM, said:

Oh lord, now it's conspiracy theories about nerfing teamwork;

10 posts back you said:

Void Angel, on 27 October 2024 - 09:59 PM, said:

It is; but it's also a nerf to the power of premade teams overall.

So obviously you agree - it is a nerf to pre-mades and their teamwork abilities. Pre-mades = Teamwork

Bunch of guys on discord together and this clearly makes you mad that we communicate skillfully.

Edited by Aethos, 02 November 2024 - 09:07 AM.

[Void Angel]

What I think about the issue doesn't let you out of contradicting yourself, nor does misquoting a snippet create a contradiction of my own. You defeated your own argument, and trying to throw shade on my "obvious" intentions or making weird flexes about my forum activity (a naked appeal to irrelevant evidence) doesn't refute my criticism of your shoddy reasoning - or mean that I secretly agree with you, or am somehow "mad" you and your fellow guildies are such skillful communicators. If your skill at communication is equivalent to your skill at sophistry, I can really see why you're angry about this change - you need that extra tonnage.

Speaking of which, ad hominem attacks about "hurr, it makes you angry, huh" also don't cut it. It's actually funny to watch you try to deflect and win the argument you just lost by denigrating people. Sometimes, premades can drive tonnage differentials, and that does make match balance worse; it's also not fun to watch your team panic and throw a match when they see known premades. But just as often, people in premades will assume that they are such "skillful communicators" that they don't have to play with the team - defeat in detail usually follows. I'm not mad about premades; I really don't much care. But I also don't see the impact that mixed-tier premades have in lower skill tiers.

If you want anyone to take your carping seriously, what you and all the (2) other complainers need to do is actually present a logical reason that 10 tons difference is ruining the game for you. All you've offered up is asinine pronouncements of how dumb this move is - but the only reasons given boil down to "we don't like it," and every decision-maker in PGI or the Cauldron who view this thread know that you don't have the information to fully evaluate the change. So far, only one person who doesn't like the changes has contributed constructive feedback, and if you want to convince someone to roll back or reduce the tonnage changes, you're going to need more than your own arrogance and the willingness to abuse those who question you.

Edited by Void Angel, 02 November 2024 - 01:12 PM.

[Ekson Valdez]

As a friendly reminder before re-opening this thread:
Stay civil and constructive, don't engage in personal attacks.
Thank You.