21 replies to this topic

[Bud Crue]

With all due respect to whomever is making the changes these days (PGI, "the Cauldron", etc.), the reduced group weight tonnage has ruined shi77y mech Wednesday.

Gone are the days when we could run a 3-4 man of Panther 10Ps (I know the conventional wisdom is that "anything is competitive these days, but really?). A 3-4 man of Panther 10Ps is considered so OP that we need to prevent such a thing from occurring; again, really? That's silly. No 3-4 man of Spiders, or stock Urbies, no 3-4 man groups of ANY 35 ton or less mechs. Yes, there are a couple of potential wolf pack mechs in this range, but the VAST majority have been complained about for years as being some of the worst mechs in the game, post-rescale, and yet you the balance overlords have deemed them too OP to be played as a group. Seriously, when is the last time you saw a 3-4 man of Anansis, let alone where you saw them and thought to yourself "wow that's an OP group". What silliness this is.

On the opposite end, the high limit numbers are just a tad two low. A 3-man ought to be able to bring at least the top weight heavies (225 or 75 tons each) and not be limited to 70 tonners, max. A 4-man being limited to 60 tons a pop is equally random/pointless. The days of Linebacker or T-Bolt rushers are long gone, and yet these are OP apparently in this day and age? Release the stats and prove it. Are 4-mans running Hellfires and Riflemen really that scary? Apparently so according to the powers that be.

Make shi77y mech Wednesday great again; give us a bit broader range at the bottom and the top to let us at least make the choice of bringing true dross as a team, and not feel obligated to take such a narrow scope of more viable mechs.

[Ken Harkin]

Bud Crue, on 07 November 2024 - 08:03 PM, said:

...
On the opposite end, the high limit numbers are just a tad two low. .... A 4-man being limited to 60 tons a pop is equally random/pointless. ...

Make shi77y mech Wednesday great again; give us a bit broader range at the bottom and the top to let us at least make the choice of bringing true dross as a team, and not feel obligated to take such a narrow scope of more viable mechs.

Hmmm, it's almost like there is an intention to have MIXED LANCES perhaps with an Assault, Heavy, Medium, and Light in the same lance... Crazy talk! Battletech and MWO are all about concentrating firepower of multiple units in the most effective way onto a single target to eliminate it quickly and move one. Perhaps having all of the same highly effective builds on the same lance in a premade and by default coordinating better is a massive force multiplier.

As for as shi77y mech wed, I actually had never heard of it and been playing since 2016. I'm thinking it is something your circle does and isn't particularly widespread.

[dario03]

Tonnage limits are not just for what is op. They are there to try to reduce the amount a 4man group decides the match outcome. And that goes for positive and negative impact. A good 4man in meta heavies can win the match for their team over and over, but a 4man in bad lights can also lose the match for their teams over and over. Its of course not a perfect system but limiting min and max tonnage at least helps keep the total hp in check.

[Feezou]

It's not that those mechs are overpowered in a group, but rather that running these throw lances ruins the quality of matches for the rest of your team. The game becomes significantly less fun when I realize that the outcome of the match is decided before it starts. Couple that with fact that these groups can appear repeatedly on your team due to the low player count, it can create a string of losses that can make the game feel incredibly pointless. Matches that feel pointless will lead to mwo bleeding more players, which we can't afford considering how queue times are right now.

[Bud Crue]

Feezou, on 08 November 2024 - 03:28 PM, said:

... throw lances ruins the quality of matches for the rest of your team...

Hmm. Having been repeatedly told that "anything is viable these days," and variations on that theme. If certain mechs are so bad that running a group of them are considered to be throw away or playing them is akin to throwing a match, I do wonder why nothing has been done to address the potential for such "throw lances"? Seems odd that in this era of "any mech is viable" that some would be considered so detrimental.

[Artemus Prime]

WHY?!
This is why:



The solo SOUP experience

Edited by Artemus Prime, 08 November 2024 - 10:16 PM.

[martian]

Bud Crue, on 07 November 2024 - 08:03 PM, said:

With all due respect to whomever is making the changes these days (PGI, "the Cauldron", etc.), the reduced group weight tonnage has ruined shi77y mech Wednesday.

I have been playing MWO since the very beginning and I have never heard about your "shi77y mech Wednesday" and I really do not care.

Bud Crue, on 07 November 2024 - 08:03 PM, said:

Gone are the days when we could run a 3-4 man of Panther 10Ps (I know the conventional wisdom is that "anything is competitive these days, but really?). A 3-4 man of Panther 10Ps is considered so OP that we need to prevent such a thing from occurring; again, really? That's silly. No 3-4 man of Spiders, or stock Urbies, no 3-4 man groups of ANY 35 ton or less mechs. Yes, there are a couple of potential wolf pack mechs in this range, but the VAST majority have been complained about for years as being some of the worst mechs in the game, post-rescale, and yet you the balance overlords have deemed them too OP to be played as a group. Seriously, when is the last time you saw a 3-4 man of Anansis, let alone where you saw them and thought to yourself "wow that's an OP group". What silliness this is.

First, I do not know how you came to the conclusion that "anything is competitive these days" and what "conventional wisdom" you are talking about.

Second, I have had enough premades dropping as 4 junk light 'Mechs, being wiped out in the first two minutes of the game with two digit match score, and quickly leaving the game to join some other team three minutes later to do the same to some other team.

Probably you do not realize it, but such premade left the remaining 8 solo casual players when the game was 0:4, i.e. when the game was essentially wasted for those solo players.

Bud Crue, on 08 November 2024 - 05:27 PM, said:

Hmm. Having been repeatedly told that "anything is viable these days," and variations on that theme. If certain mechs are so bad that running a group of them are considered to be throw away or playing them is akin to throwing a match, I do wonder why nothing has been done to address the potential for such "throw lances"? Seems odd that in this era of "any mech is viable" that some would be considered so detrimental.

You can keep repeating your mantra that "anything is viable these days", but dropping in four useless lights to waste the game for the remaining 8 players was fun maybe for your premade, but definitely not for those 8 solo players who were left to deal with the consequences.

Bud Crue, on 07 November 2024 - 08:03 PM, said:

On the opposite end, the high limit numbers are just a tad two low. A 3-man ought to be able to bring at least the top weight heavies (225 or 75 tons each) and not be limited to 70 tonners, max. A 4-man being limited to 60 tons a pop is equally random/pointless. The days of Linebacker or T-Bolt rushers are long gone, and yet these are OP apparently in this day and age? Release the stats and prove it. Are 4-mans running Hellfires and Riflemen really that scary? Apparently so according to the powers that be.

A 4-man premade - and especially reasonably competent premade - dropping in 3 Assault 'Mechs and 1 good light 'Mech often massively influenced the game, especially if the other team had some 4-man premade that dropped in 4 useless lights.

Thus, the change of those tonnage limits.

Bud Crue, on 07 November 2024 - 08:03 PM, said:

Make shi77y mech Wednesday great again; give us a bit broader range at the bottom and the top to let us at least make the choice of bringing true dross as a team, and not feel obligated to take such a narrow scope of more viable mechs.

Your private lobby is always open to you, your 4 junk light 'Mechs and your "shi77y mech Wednesday".

Or you can play the Faction Play, i.e. the game mode designed specifically with the premades in mind.

Edited by martian, 09 November 2024 - 01:12 AM.

[Feezou]

Bud Crue, on 08 November 2024 - 05:27 PM, said:

Hmm. Having been repeatedly told that "anything is viable these days," and variations on that theme. If certain mechs are so bad that running a group of them are considered to be throw away or playing them is akin to throwing a match, I do wonder why nothing has been done to address the potential for such "throw lances"? Seems odd that in this era of "any mech is viable" that some would be considered so detrimental.

Maybe if the players running these really light groups were carrying their weight, it wouldn’t be an issue. Even if the mechs are considered viable, as it stands, these groups are generally a detriment to the game as a whole. I’m sure some groups have the skill to really play to the strengths of the light mechs they take, but most do not, and are ruining it for the other 8 people on their team.

[Bud Crue]

martian, on 08 November 2024 - 11:55 PM, said:

seemingly angry response

First off, your being disingenuous. With just a basic Google search I found two threads (from 2000 and 2001) where Shi77ty Mech Wednesday was mentioned that you participated in. It's also been mentioned by myself and other players since at least 2018. But who cares?

As to the anything is viable these days thing, I should have instead couched that as "most" mechs rather than "any." That sort of most mechs are viable "conventional wisdom" has been stated by members of the Cauldron when responding to various player complaints since they took over balance, and I think they are correct; but there remains some mechs that need help. The main reason me and mine embrace Shi77y Mech Wednesdays is to highlight those few mechs that remain practically unplayable or so niche as to be useless for how the game is typically played (doing damage and killing mechs). I consistently use the Panther 10P and the other mechs that are commonly played on Wednesday with the hopes that the powers that be will take note of them and fix/buff them.

While you and others can rage that we are ruining your games when we do this sort of thing, these tonnage changes won't reduce that rage. They have made us do what you and others above seem to think is ideal, namely run a group of differing tonnage shi77y mechs rather than the themes that we would prefer. We typically play a single variant together because it forces us to stick together, commit together, etc. But now, instead of playing a four man of Panther 10ps well take some mix of just as equally shi77y mechs, probably get separated due to speed differences, and be less effective than we otherwise would be, but hey at least we are running a different tonnage mechs the way you think we should.

[chaosshade2638]

*sad urbie noises*

No more Urbie Derbies...

[martian]

Bud Crue, on 09 November 2024 - 04:30 AM, said:

First off, your being disingenuous. With just a basic Google search I found two threads (from 2000 and 2001) where Shi77ty Mech Wednesday was mentioned that you participated in. It's also been mentioned by myself and other players since at least 2018. But who cares?

First, there were no MWO forums in "2000 and 2001".

Second, I have found one thread from 2021 in which your post is not even on the same page as my reply to somebody else. This is all I care to do about it.

And third, I have never cared about some private fan-invented stuff, as long as it had no or minimal influence on my games.

Bud Crue, on 09 November 2024 - 04:30 AM, said:

As to the anything is viable these days thing, I should have instead couched that as "most" mechs rather than "any." That sort of most mechs are viable "conventional wisdom" has been stated by members of the Cauldron when responding to various player complaints since they took over balance, and I think they are correct; but there remains some mechs that need help. The main reason me and mine embrace Shi77y Mech Wednesdays is to highlight those few mechs that remain practically unplayable or so niche as to be useless for how the game is typically played (doing damage and killing mechs). I consistently use the Panther 10P and the other mechs that are commonly played on Wednesday with the hopes that the powers that be will take note of them and fix/buff them.

You talked about being "disingenuous"? Here are your own words:

As you personally confirmed here, the purpose of your ****** Mech Wednesdays is to annoy other MWO players ...

Not to "highlight" something, but to piss off other people.

Bud Crue, on 09 November 2024 - 04:30 AM, said:

While you and others can rage that we are ruining your games when we do this sort of thing, these tonnage changes won't reduce that rage. They have made us do what you and others above seem to think is ideal, namely run a group of differing tonnage shi77y mechs rather than the themes that we would prefer. We typically play a single variant together because it forces us to stick together, commit together, etc. But now, instead of playing a four man of Panther 10ps well take some mix of just as equally shi77y mechs, probably get separated due to speed differences, and be less effective than we otherwise would be, but hey at least we are running a different tonnage mechs the way you think we should.

I am not alone who thinks that it was enough of that. Other MWO players and Cauldron members obviously feel it the same way.

[Bud Crue]

martian, on 09 November 2024 - 05:21 AM, said:

crazed ranting

Jesus, take a breath.
Context is everything. That thread you quoted, what was it about? Funny comments one might make in game? Yes, yes it was. Not some sort of serious statement of intent. Anyway, we really do try to use Wednesdays to run the worst of the worst for the reasons I said, the fact that it drives you this nuts just makes it that much better. We will endeavor to continue "ruining" your gaming experience by playing mechs that are PGI/the Cauldron approved to be played in the manner that PGI/the Cauldron allow. I just wish there was more leeway to play them together (5 tons on either end of the new limits). Now try and cope as best you can; that's what we are doing.

[martian]

Bud Crue, on 09 November 2024 - 10:23 AM, said:

Jesus, take a breath.
Context is everything. That thread you quoted, what was it about? Funny comments one might make in game? Yes, yes it was. Not some sort of serious statement of intent. Anyway, we really do try to use Wednesdays to run the worst of the worst for the reasons I said, the fact that it drives you this nuts just makes it that much better. We will endeavor to continue "ruining" your gaming experience by playing mechs that are PGI/the Cauldron approved to be played in the manner that PGI/the Cauldron allow. I just wish there was more leeway to play them together (5 tons on either end of the new limits). Now try and cope as best you can; that's what we are doing.

Feel free to drop in any combination of Mechs that you see fit.

This is what premades dropping in junk light 'Mechs have achieved so far:

InnerSphereNews, on 21 October 2024 - 05:10 PM, said:

GAMEPLAY ADJUSTMENTS

• Quickplay Group changes:
  
  • 4 man quick play group tonnage minimum increased from 120 to 160.

[Feezou]

Bud Crue, on 09 November 2024 - 10:23 AM, said:

Anyway, we really do try to use Wednesdays to run the worst of the worst for the reasons I said, the fact that it drives you this nuts just makes it that much better. We will endeavor to continue "ruining" your gaming experience by playing mechs that are PGI/the Cauldron approved to be played in the manner that PGI/the Cauldron allow.

Tonnage is a strong advantage. Even though this game has attempted to balance the weight classes much better than mw5, more tonnage to work with is still an advantage. When you run these light 4-mans, you are depriving your team of an advantage. Even though you pretend not to, you probably understand this concept but still continue to insist that you should be able to grief your team. No one should take you seriously.

Edited by Feezou, 09 November 2024 - 03:31 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Feezou, on 09 November 2024 - 03:31 PM, said:

Tonnage is a strong advantage.

This, armor + firepower is a big advantage in QP. Being able to burn things down fast and repeatedly is huge and it's why things like the Aksum and Gausszilla are considered peak QP mechs. If your side lacks the armor, your heavier mechs just get mowed down and then all your lights are chased down because none of them have the space, time, or killing power to honestly whittle away the armor.

At this point in QP, it's worse than the MW4 days as ninja mechs were actually more potent back then (ERLL spam mediums). Unironically, this is all a product of longer TTK.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 09 November 2024 - 04:21 PM.

[1453 R]

Players grouped up and playing with their friends is vital to the continued existence of this niche game on life support.

Players grouped up with their friends deliberately throwing matches for the drunken jollies makes it way harder to whack all the moles that keep popping up insisting that all forms of friendship get banned forever.

Please stop throwing matches. You don't have to be ultracomp-level hypercoordinated. But you should still be playing to try and win whatever game you drop into. If you're going to Drunk Meme, please do that on your own time so the rest of us can keep our ability to casual-but-still-serious drop with friends.

[Moadebe]

1453 R, on 11 November 2024 - 02:55 PM, said:

Players grouped up with their friends deliberately throwing matches for the drunken jollies makes it way harder to whack all the moles that keep popping up insisting that all forms of friendship get banned forever.

I think people who call for the literal banning of groups are more frustrated at the state of the game than anything. Going in and playing the same people over and over with the outcome being a stomp loss for them each time gets incredibly frustrating. It has nothing to do with "banning friendship."

Its a sad symptom of the problem with the game in its current state. Lesser pop = less separation of players with the current matchmaker. The match maker right now is purely there to keep T1s from T5s. And before anyone says it. Yes...I HAVE seen T1s with T4s in matches. Granted those were on days where there was a lull in players, but it happens.

[1453 R]

Moadebe, on 13 November 2024 - 08:19 AM, said:

I think people who call for the literal banning of groups are more frustrated at the state of the game than anything. Going in and playing the same people over and over with the outcome being a stomp loss for them each time gets incredibly frustrating. It has nothing to do with "banning friendship."

Its a sad symptom of the problem with the game in its current state. Lesser pop = less separation of players with the current matchmaker. The match maker right now is purely there to keep T1s from T5s. And before anyone says it. Yes...I HAVE seen T1s with T4s in matches. Granted those were on days where there was a lull in players, but it happens.

You may well be right, but frankly it doesn't matter as much as it should, if at all. The problem is that people keep pushing and agitating for Banning All Friendship Forever. They're wrong, but wrong people still have wallets and Piranha wants inside them. Doing what the goobers protest so strenuously that they want would be an easy way to score cheap points and some extra wallet treats, and the fact that it would result in the game's complete collapse within six months doesn't really matter since Piranha doesn't consider MWO a viable moneymaker anymore anyways.

We have to keep swatting the idiocy down, and people posting threads saying "we hate the new rules because they mean we can't throw matches like we used to" really doesn't help. It does, in fact, anti-help. The message we keep trying to cram down the pie hatches of all these people is "the majority of grouped players, by and large, play the same way everyone else does, just with their friends." People saying they have special scheduled events specifically to throw as many matches as they can together in a drunken meme frenzy is really difficult to work with, even if they're absolutely not the norm and anyone sane knows it.

[East Indy]

Can anyone share numbers on players in groups and solo players during high-volume periods in Mixed Queue?

That would shed a lot of light on Ruin Fun/Ban Friendship.

[East Indy]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 09 November 2024 - 04:20 PM, said:

Unironically, this is all a product of longer TTK.

You almost had it with the Aksum but then went back to this.

MWO's troubles will always be this cycle borne from incomplete fundamental design:

• Damage is location-based, so units can be disabled with concentrated fire
  
• Obtainable alpha sizes circumvent this
  
• Players up-ton and developers up-armor to compensate

Why do top-ranked players hide behind rocks and peek all match long? Why are the only units that spend any time out in the open like the Aksum? Why do players prefer a Warthog to a HBK-4G? Follow the logic, man.