20 replies to this topic

[The Fluffeh Fox]

First they add the Pirahna, which overnight made pretty much all of the Inner Sphere lights at the time completely obsolete.

Now the addition of AP Gauss/Magshot has not only amplified the ability of the Pirahna, which was already absurdly good, but also made running any light mech that isn't a ballistic boat a complete crapshoot. Why even try when you have a light firing an AC/20 at nearly twice the rate of fire for a fraction of the weight. You have many more that can fire an AC/10 into a single spot for a fraction of the weight with complete accuracy and no time-on-target consideration.

Never should have been added.

Sincerely, a Light pilot.

[Ttly]

On the Adder's case? That thing is as slow as some mediums and have pretty large hitboxes while not being as durable as mediums anyway on top of the Warthog's hardpoint spread warranting a lot of exposure if you want to use 14APG+MPL well.
On the Flea-19? Well yea, it's really annoying, I'd agree, it's like 3LPPC builds if they have a lot more sustain (from having way less heat) but less range. Which is to say, only that, annoying, not extremely overwhelming you ask me.

[Pixel Hunter]

I agree, We need a restrictive HSL for the Magshot/AP gauss. It's a nice "backup" weapon but gets a little ridiculous when boated. either that or give it the charge mechanic like all the other gauss. No reason why a dual heavy gauss needs to fear a light mech at close range especially when hit-reg allows shots to just go missing and he can get 3-4 uncharged shots off vs. your one.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

It doesn't need HSL, worst it needs is cooldown nerfed some more. Of the lights that use them, only one good one lacks any sort of quirks for them is the Warthog, and it suffers in other ways (slow, fragile, short ranged).

It won't ever get charge-up because charge-up limit is global at 2 and that would make these weapons awful.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 22 November 2024 - 08:17 PM.

[LordNothing]

as usual its only a problem when there is hardpoint inflation. any nerf will hurt its performance on mechs that are running 4 or fewer hardpoints. so any weapon nerf needs to coincide with a quirk pass. also the trend towards quirks going more generic also poses a problem.

[LordNothing]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 22 November 2024 - 08:16 PM, said:

It doesn't need HSL, worst it needs is cooldown nerfed some more. Of the lights that use them, only one good one lacks any sort of quirks for them is the Warthog, and it suffers in other ways (slow, fragile, short ranged).

It won't ever get charge-up because charge-up limit is global at 2 and that would make these weapons awful.

a delay mechanic might work, where they fire a quarter second after the trigger pull. but that is going to effect non inflated builds a lot more than inflated ones.

[Pixel Hunter]

LordNothing, on 22 November 2024 - 08:19 PM, said:

as usual its only a problem when there is hardpoint inflation. any nerf will hurt its performance on mechs that are running 4 or fewer hardpoints. so any weapon nerf needs to coincide with a quirk pass. also the trend towards quirks going more generic also poses a problem.

Then that seems like a job for HSL. Put it pretty high at like 8 or something. I don’t wanna be over punitive, but there’s a couple mechs IS and Clan both that are pretty ridiculous boating these things.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Pixel Hunter, on 23 November 2024 - 04:46 PM, said:

Then that seems like a job for HSL. Put it pretty high at like 8 or something. I don’t wanna be over punitive, but there’s a couple mechs IS and Clan both that are pretty ridiculous boating these things.

I think there are only two mechs that would be impacted by this, and one just isn't as big a deal (hint, it's the cicada)

[Pixel Hunter]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 23 November 2024 - 05:34 PM, said:

I think there are only two mechs that would be impacted by this, and one just isn't as big a deal (hint, it's the cicada)

and probably the only two ones that need it

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Pixel Hunter, on 23 November 2024 - 06:23 PM, said:

and probably the only two ones that need it

The cicada definitely does not need it, I'm honestly trying to remember the last time I even saw someone run them. Honestly it underperforms compared to most of the other cicadas based on the last 3 months of QP stats.

[LordNothing]

ghost heat at >8 would probibly work fine.

Edited by LordNothing, 23 November 2024 - 10:13 PM.

[Ttly]

LordNothing, on 23 November 2024 - 10:11 PM, said:

ghost heat at >8 would probibly work fine.

Yeah, no. This is just a thinly veiled "APG Warthog OP" statement when it's a glorified medium without the armor. It's totally a problem when it's 14 APG, but it's fine if it's C-UAC10/20 (which appropriately has quirks because these are on lights) which has more range right?

Edited by Ttly, 23 November 2024 - 11:01 PM.

[foamyesque]

Ttly, on 23 November 2024 - 10:53 PM, said:

Yeah, no. This is just a thinly veiled "APG Warthog OP" statement when it's a glorified medium without the armor. It's totally a problem when it's 14 APG, but it's fine if it's C-UAC10/20 (which appropriately has quirks because these are on lights) which has more range right?

Yes, a UAC20 Adder is significantly less of a problem than the APG one, that's why nobody builds a UAC20 Warthog. The APG version has 50% more DPS, is more resilient to battle damage by virtue of having torso mounts, shoots an instant burst instead of taking like a full second+ to spray the full doubletap out, still manages 3/4s of the UAC20s nominal double tap alpha, it doesn't jam and cycles twice as fast while generating two-thirds the heat, the guns weigh five tons less, and they have half again the projectile speed.

Got any other silly questions?



An APG HSL limit of 7, yes specifically for the Warthog though I suppose it could also impact something like the Bane, would be a precision tool to limit the most obnoxious machine without impacting everybody else.

For magshots the only real issue is the Flea-19, which is simply overquirked now that it has access to lightweight pinpoint weaponry. Going in and requirking that mech, and only that mech, would help issues on that side of things, without even requiring a HSL limit.

Edited by foamyesque, 24 November 2024 - 09:34 AM.

[Meep Meep]

Mag/ap is being monitored but 'fixing' it will be tricky so its not nerfed to uselessness because a few light mechs can boat them. I don't see them much though at least in t1 games so its not a huge issue. Mostly they are fle19 and with no masc armor they tend to die fairly fast if you can aim.

[LordNothing]

Ttly, on 23 November 2024 - 10:53 PM, said:

Yeah, no. This is just a thinly veiled "APG Warthog OP" statement when it's a glorified medium without the armor. It's totally a problem when it's 14 APG, but it's fine if it's C-UAC10/20 (which appropriately has quirks because these are on lights) which has more range right?

it is often called as a priority target. even by people who seldom make calls. and while they can usually be dispatched in a couple of salvos, they can do the same to the back of your assault mech of choice. is it op? no, but its damn close. i actually like the 10-apgauss+2plasma+ecm cougar build i was playing with, or the 12 apgauss + 2cerppc nova cat* loyalty builds. those are totally op.

after 10 games the cougar has a w/l of 9 and a k/d of 3. needless to see these numbers are huge outliers in my own performance. warthog is 1.38 w/l and 1.83 k/d after 31 games.

*upon further inspection the nova cat numbers are less than the warthog.

Edited by LordNothing, 24 November 2024 - 01:32 PM.

[Meep Meep]

The loyalty nct with 8 pac2 and 1 plasma is just silly good. Sit back around 700m and farm away.

nct-pl

Sadly I didn't quality for it but eh it will come out for cbills in a few months.

[LordNothing]

Meep Meep, on 24 November 2024 - 01:25 PM, said:

The loyalty nct with 8 pac2 and 1 plasma is just silly good. Sit back around 700m and farm away.

nct-pl

Sadly I didn't quality for it but eh it will come out for cbills in a few months.

im doing this

nct-pl

and im doing this better

cou-fl

[RockmachinE]

I find lights comically easy to kill no matter what they field.

[Samara 6J]

foamyesque, on 24 November 2024 - 01:00 AM, said:

Yes, a UAC20 Adder is significantly less of a problem than the APG one, that's why nobody builds a UAC20 Warthog. The APG version has 50% more DPS, is more resilient to battle damage by virtue of having torso mounts, shoots an instant burst instead of taking like a full second+ to spray the full doubletap out, still manages 3/4s of the UAC20s nominal double tap alpha, it doesn't jam and cycles twice as fast while generating two-thirds the heat, the guns weigh five tons less, and they have half again the projectile speed.

Got any other silly questions?



An APG HSL limit of 7, yes specifically for the Warthog though I suppose it could also impact something like the Bane, would be a precision tool to limit the most obnoxious machine without impacting everybody else.

For magshots the only real issue is the Flea-19, which is simply overquirked now that it has access to lightweight pinpoint weaponry. Going in and requirking that mech, and only that mech, would help issues on that side of things, without even requiring a HSL limit.

Is the APGauss Warthog really even that bad? The DPS compared to a UAC 20 is good, but even so I find that they tend to pick up lots of damage getting in position because they're big with bad geometry and have no defensive option. Then once they do get in position they have the Fafnir exposure time problem where they have to peak really wide, because the mech is broad and the weapon distribution is spread across the whole frontage.

[foamyesque]

Samara 6J, on 24 November 2024 - 04:19 PM, said:

Is the APGauss Warthog really even that bad? The DPS compared to a UAC 20 is good, but even so I find that they tend to pick up lots of damage getting in position because they're big with bad geometry and have no defensive option. Then once they do get in position they have the Fafnir exposure time problem where they have to peak really wide, because the mech is broad and the weapon distribution is spread across the whole frontage.

Yeah, they have to fully expose for a full volley -- though it's very easy to configure weapon-groups for a half-peek, which is still 70% of an AC20 firing twice as fast as an AC20 -- but while they're slow and wide for a light mech they are still a light mech, so the distance they need to cover is a lot less than a Fafnir or something of that ilk, and they have the speed and accel/decel to do so much more quickly.

In addition, the weapons themselves have no duration; lasers and cUACs both have pretty significant ones. And because of the heat efficiency of APGs they can just keep pumping out damage.

They're also a lot lower to the ground, so they can hide in terrain folds that taller mechs can't.

The Warthog is one of the most-played mechs in the game and it's for good reason.

Edited by foamyesque, 24 November 2024 - 06:18 PM.