13 replies to this topic

[Arcadinal]

I don't quite get how to use ATM's effectively. Their benefit over SRMs is supposed to be the longer range option, but the couple of times I've tried using them they don't appear to arc the way LRMs do. This seems to largely nullify the long range option, since the time it takes to stick your face out to let off a volley is time other people will be lighting you up with faster weapons like PPCs, and if there is any kind of obstruction or your target is in the process of moving to cover, your missiles will won't hit.

I'm curious what other folks experience with them has been. Thanks!

[RockmachinE]

Arcadinal, on 24 November 2024 - 01:29 PM, said:

I don't quite get how to use ATM's effectively. Their benefit over SRMs is supposed to be the longer range option, but the couple of times I've tried using them they don't appear to arc the way LRMs do. This seems to largely nullify the long range option, since the time it takes to stick your face out to let off a volley is time other people will be lighting you up with faster weapons like PPCs, and if there is any kind of obstruction or your target is in the process of moving to cover, your missiles will won't hit.

I'm curious what other folks experience with them has been. Thanks!

I've never liked them even at their peak of popularity and meta so I can't comment too much, but I'll try anyways.

You'd use them as direct fire LRM alternatives in the form of a support role. They can still do decent damage if you can juggle the distances. But since you need direct lines of sight, your best bet is to stick with your main group around second line (towards the front, but not the one taking damage). Just pound everything your guys come across out in the open, lock on and supress anything you see on the horizon or in and around cover. Don't hesitate to use dumb fire to pepper anything that pops up spontaneously. There's no need to wait for lock.

Your goal would be to put pressure on the enemies with the lock ons and constant damage, soften and cripple enemy mechs, keep enemy mechs in cover and running for cover and deliver devastating blows once you can maneuver into that sweet spot range for massive damage.

Leave the sandwich at home and pack more missiles instead. All +missile ammo skill nodes. We take no prisoners, we wanna be trigger happy, constantly rain on the enemy. Remember they do still have an arc so don't hesitate to try and shoot over that cover baby.

They do have quite the range too, gently remind someone they're being a dumb*ss at 1100m, just make sure not to get into an exchange, this ain't forex.

And make sure if possible to use the range multiplier, you do more damage within certain ranges (please correct me on the exact details of this guys).

60-245m 2.5 dmg per missile
295-500m 2.0
550-1100m 1.6

Edited by RockmachinE, 24 November 2024 - 04:43 PM.

[Ttly]

Lock-on weapons aren't allowed to be good because they're "too low skilled" apparently. That's what my take on them is.
Anyway, you'd pretty much use them like you would direct-fire LRMs, except like LRMs they're slow velocity spread weapons soooo you're just gonna have them hit cover anyway, so you try to use them on indirect-fire! And then realize that their low indirect-fire arc makes them worse than LRMs for that.

Uhh, at least you can substitute SSRM4 and 6s with ATM3s and 6s?
Oh by the way, the damage brackets are affected by range quirks/skills if you're wondering why the Howl hits harder than it seems.
Anyway yeah, it's a pretty bad damage delivery system for its tonnage.

Edited by Ttly, 24 November 2024 - 03:51 PM.

[kalashnikity]

ATMs and LRMs have been so nerfed that they are only useful as part of a coordinated team with dedicated NARCers.

They are so slow that even direct fire at ranges past ~150 to 200 meters is basically useless in most circumstances, and lock on takes too long and there is too much ECM to rely on it.

The Powers That Be have decreed them to be "low skill" so you aren't allowed to use lock on weapons effectively, and if you do figure out a way to use them effectively, TPTB will nerf them some more.

You aren't allowed to embarrass Tier Ones with them, or their feels will get hurt and there will be more nerfings.

Edited by kalashnikity, 24 November 2024 - 05:34 PM.

[Ttly]

kalashnikity, on 24 November 2024 - 05:32 PM, said:

ATMs and LRMs have been so nerfed that they are only useful as part of a coordinated team with dedicated NARCers.

They are so slow that even direct fire at ranges past ~150 to 200 meters is basically useless in most circumstances, and lock on takes too long and there is too much ECM to rely on it.

The Powers That Be have decreed them to be "low skill" so you aren't allowed to use lock on weapons effectively, and if you do figure out a way to use them effectively, TPTB will nerf them some more.

You aren't allowed to embarrass Tier Ones with them, or their feels will get hurt and there will be more nerfings.

"Dedicated NARCers"
You know, I actually tried the SMN-B So8 NARCer the other day and I'd have to say.
Even 40 second NARC poptarts don't help LRMs because ECM bubbles (and LRM-hostile architecture on some maps) are SO COMMON that even if you NARC an ECMer, there's ANOTHER ECM bubble next to them disabling your NARC anyway. Not to mention that a single AMS shot is all it takes to shoot NARC projectiles down because of course it counts as a missile.
Oh right, also that thing has no cooldown quirks so it has pitiful LRM DPS because again, lock-on weapons aren't allowed to be good apparently.

Edited by Ttly, 24 November 2024 - 05:54 PM.

[RabidBeagles]

You can do a quick upwards flinch when you fire ATMs to get somewhat of a higher arc

[kalashnikity]

Ttly, on 24 November 2024 - 05:48 PM, said:

"Dedicated NARCers"
You know, I actually tried the SMN-B So8 NARCer the other day and I'd have to say.
Even 40 second NARC poptarts don't help LRMs because ECM bubbles (and LRM-hostile architecture on some maps) are SO COMMON that even if you NARC an ECMer, there's ANOTHER ECM bubble next to them disabling your NARC anyway. Not to mention that a single AMS shot is all it takes to shoot NARC projectiles down because of course it counts as a missile.
Oh right, also that thing has no cooldown quirks so it has pitiful LRM DPS because again, lock-on weapons aren't allowed to be good apparently.

I noticed, every new map that comes out, and some older maps have been modified to, with artificial architecture that prevents use of LRMS from most angles.

As if the nerfs are not enough, they purposefully design maps to prevent use of long range lock on missiles.

It's ridiculous. All because a few "leet" bois in charge want to play peek'a'boo shooter and LRMS will disrupt their preferred play style.

Then they gaslight us by calling LRMS "low skill weapons".

[Pixel Hunter]

kalashnikity, on 24 November 2024 - 07:30 PM, said:

I noticed, every new map that comes out, and some older maps have been modified to, with artificial architecture that prevents use of LRMS from most angles.

As if the nerfs are not enough, they purposefully design maps to prevent use of long range lock on missiles.

It's ridiculous. All because a few "leet" bois in charge want to play peek'a'boo shooter and LRMS will disrupt their preferred play style.

Then they gaslight us by calling LRMS "low skill weapons".

And then a lot of new maps and old maps get updated with perfect ways to get blue laser boats up on the shooting ring without wasting tonnage on things like those pesky jump jets. Of course, when you call large laser vomit low skill you're met with a cavalcade of people saying that any weapon system can be good and: "you've just got to position and play it right"...but meanwhile maps are literally being revamped so ERLL players can get better angles and have cover while they do it.

[Ttly]

Pixel Hunter, on 24 November 2024 - 10:25 PM, said:

And then a lot of new maps and old maps get updated with perfect ways to get blue laser boats up on the shooting ring without wasting tonnage on things like those pesky jump jets. Of course, when you call large laser vomit low skill you're met with a cavalcade of people saying that any weapon system can be good and: "you've just got to position and play it right"...but meanwhile maps are literally being revamped so ERLL players can get better angles and have cover while they do it.

ERLLs aren't as egregious offender for promoting sniping as are ERPPCs (both IS and Clan) as much as HAG30s are.
They're just too hot, frankly anemic damage (at least compared to HAGs), and their HSL means the need for staggered-shots to add to the inaccuracy. It's also why the SNV-1, WHK-PRIME, MAD-9M, or ADR-PRIME, or even STK-3FB (regardless of its good hitbox+hardpoint placement) isn't that popular for this among other things outside of maybe FP which has longer roundtime (to make up for the lesser DPS and where the fact that energy weapons don't use ammo actually shine) and lower likelihood of being ganked by lights (because turrets on Siege have aimbots) among other things such as defender-sided maps (also a Siege thing). Oh right, there's also the EXE-PRIME So8 and Gargoyles for an example of an "fast moving DPS sniper" I guess, and they suck because low alpha and bad hardpoint placement.

HAG30s on the other hand does 30 damage (part of it as splash damage albeit) each (with your average MADIIC-D carrying HAG60 in 2HAG30) for as much as ERLL laser durations in its burst time.
And now you have the Bane with 10 C-UAC2s (with 9t of ammo btw) hitting at that range with even more DPS.
Gauss rifles meanwhile has too low of a DPS for its tonnage (and unergonomic charge time that isn't even that warranted for it), HAG20s are kind of underwhelming though most mediums can squeeze it in because hardpoints are kind of at a premium. And most vehicles have a hard time squeezing in 2HAG40s which are probably the only even worse offender than 2HAG30.

Edited by Ttly, 24 November 2024 - 11:34 PM.

[Arcadinal]

It seems weird to me to think of LRMs as low skill when effective use of them depends on the interactions of multiple players (the spotters as well as the launchers) to make them work. They strike me as more of a good teamwork promoter, but ymmv.

Edited by Arcadinal, 26 November 2024 - 04:15 AM.

[Ken Harkin]

1. Cauldron hates lock on weapons therefore they will always be an uphill struggle against skilled foes.

2, ATMs are primarily DIRECT FIRE. Their indirect arcs are minimal and can only be counted on to help when the target is a hair out of signt and you can jump or get an elevation assist.

3. TAG and BEAGLE are your friends. Howl has ONE energy slot, it ALWAYS has a TAG when I run it. The two Ballistic slots are a pair of MGs just for the lights which may get within 60m to help drive them away into missile range.

4. Other people spotting is great but you will need to get your own locks. You are decidedly SECOND LINE. You aren't supposed to be sitting behind a mountain or 900m away with ATMs but should be in the 400m - 600m range with some big boys around you. Getting a couple volleys off at a target in this situation racks up damage FAST. When you actually see someone vulnerable and distracted you get into the < 300m ATM increased damage range to ruin their day.

5. Jump Jets REALLY help out with ATMs due to their lower arc.

[simon1812]

ATMs are direct fire weapons, still support weapons though. it takes a different approach than LRMs...also...install Advance Sensor Package and the Clan Active Prove, also suggest using a mech with high mount for its missile hard points, and of course fight as part of a team, ATMs are still support weapons owed to their ridiculous range.

PS

dont bother with targets that are taking cover or peek shooting, its actually pretty good at peppering enemies caught in the open and unaware, from a safe distance. also pretty good a finishing off enemies that have sustained a big deal of damage, again, from a safe distance. yes this weapons actually favors a particular playstyle from that of the rest of the arsenal available in this game.

[Krucilatoz]

as one of ATM enthusiast, let me add few opinion :

• ATM boat need to be daring and bold, since you need to get close (sub 300m, or 500m on Howl) to maximize and ensuring your missile landed. If any light come and knife-fight, then you'll die.
  
• You also might need to face tank hit since you need to lock first then fire. this sequence from getting lock to actually hit need approx 3 - 6 seconds which your enemy already hit you with one or two volley shots. A good placement of UAV or view from teammate are greatly appreciated
  
• The best way to trade are jump shot (lock, jump, fire, drop down)
  
• ignore those who said "low skill" weapon

Recommended ATM carrier by personal experience (these mech able to perform 800+ damage and/or 500+ score on tier 1 solo play, of course with proper luck) :

• TBR Howl, 4xATM9, plasma ppc or tag
  
• VGL-3, 3xATM6 3x plasma ppc and light tag
  
• HMN, 3xATM6 max small laser and tag

Assault are not recommended for ATM build, too slow for maneuvering your missile, and with attract pesky lights immediately

Edited by Krucilatoz, 03 December 2024 - 01:43 AM.

[Void Angel]

Arcadinal, on 24 November 2024 - 01:29 PM, said:

I don't quite get how to use ATM's effectively. Their benefit over SRMs is supposed to be the longer range option, but the couple of times I've tried using them they don't appear to arc the way LRMs do. This seems to largely nullify the long range option, since the time it takes to stick your face out to let off a volley is time other people will be lighting you up with faster weapons like PPCs, and if there is any kind of obstruction or your target is in the process of moving to cover, your missiles will won't hit.

I'm curious what other folks experience with them has been. Thanks!

Wow, this has been a lot of salt for an honest question. Ignore the people with an axe to grind; they're oversimplifying the problems with balancing LRM/ATMs, and engaging in conspiracy theories - it's "Blizzard [developer] plays [WoW class,] so [WoW class] is overpowered" - but with Battlemechs!

That being said, there ARE legitimate difficulties with balancing lock-on weapons that make them difficult to balance against direct-fire options. Still, ATMs can be effective if used well, particularly outside the upper tiers, so: I recommend you use fast 'mechs, bring lots of ammunition, and rely on direct fire and positioning to farm damage against your foes. It's going to be harder to get kills with ATMs because they inherently spread their damage around the target, but you can make them work if you ditch standard LRM tactics to engage at closer ranges with direct fire.

So, play a fast 'mech, and use its mobility to get shots; treat it kind of like an ERML harasser 'mech. Also bring TAG and an active probe or ASP - the more sensor range you have, the better (it affects your indirect lock-on time, and reduces the effectiveness of ECM.) Any of These Builds should get you in the general ballpark, but the Vapor Eagle in particular has a reputation as a very strong 'mech that can run ATMs successfully by dipping behind the enemy line to get good angles. And remember: ATMs are ammo hungry and work best at close range, so you may have to get wrecked for a while before you get the hang of positioning yourself to deal damage without getting caught by the enemy team.

LRMs and ATMs will be an uphill battle at times, but with an optimized build and enough practice, you should totally be able to get good matches in quick play.