63 replies to this topic

[kalashnikity]

Nobody has mentioned the BKL-A with 2x ERPPC?

It'll drive the enemy crazy.

Literally quirked for ERPPCs too.

• RANGE+10%
  
• ENERGY HEAT-10%
  
• TURN RATE+10%

• PPC VELOCITY (ALL VARIETIES)+20%
  
• TARGET DECAY DURATION+1
  
• ER PPC HEAT-20%
  
• XP BONUS

https://mwo.nav-alph...=5b23c689_BKL-A

[Ttly]

kalashnikity, on 23 December 2024 - 04:37 PM, said:

2C-ERPPC BKL-A

Well the Shadow Cat exists as the prefered ECM 2C-ERPPC platform already, but yes, it is an option if you want a non-JJ alternative.

[feeWAIVER]

I don't think I even own a black lanner, but I've always perceived them as threatening, hard to kill for their weight class with ability to put good damage out. Am I wrong?

Edited by feeWAIVER, 23 December 2024 - 06:28 PM.

[CFC Conky]

I only have the Bellonarius, and I can make it work by driving it like a slower, better armored light mech, i.e. I pick my fights carefully and stay close to larger teammates.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

Edited by CFC Conky, 23 December 2024 - 07:50 PM.

[foamyesque]

kalashnikity, on 23 December 2024 - 04:37 PM, said:

https://mwo.nav-alph...=5b23c689_BKL-A

Zero leg armour is an extremely risky play. You'd have to delete both sinks and pull some armour off the head to get to anything reasonable for the legs, at which point you only have 10 sinks to the SHC's 14. The much stronger quirks offset that, but you also have no JJs and I don't think the extra 20kph ground speed you get is worth that trade.

The Lanner's just over-engined, I think, like many other Clan omnis such as the Linebacker or Viper, both of which would be far deadlier if they dropped a movement rating and put that tonnage to use with the ridiculously lightweight Clan guns.

Edited by foamyesque, 23 December 2024 - 11:52 PM.

[epikt]

foamyesque, on 23 December 2024 - 09:12 PM, said:

Zero leg armour is an extremely risky play.

Especially on a Lanner, this mech is basically dead if legged.
Here is a build for the dual pips. Pretty decent harasser.

[Void Angel]

GreyNovember, on 22 December 2024 - 05:31 PM, said:

I didn't consider interrupting the death turn by changing directions. That was informative, thank you.

It can also be helpful to sprint forward with MASC. Start out with the standard direction swap while backing up (swap your torso twist and turn directions simultaneously to minimize rear armor exposure,) and hit him with your ERMLs. As soon as they're done burning, or if you can't get a good shot, hit the forward key along with MASC, and turn the direction he's moving on your screen to pass behind him. Finally, you reverse again - all with MASC, and then start lining up a shot to hit him as soon as your reticle shake subsides. This will break his death-circle and force him to re-acquire you while you are lining up a shot on him. Won't work too well on big, slow 'mechs, but the Lanner put all that tonnage into engine rating... ;]

This reminds me of something - do you use throttle decay?

[pbiggz]

A lot of clan omnimechs are built this way; its tabletop logic bleeding into a game where that does nothing for the mech. The clanners seemed to love their over-engined mechs with no podspace, essentially doing the job of the weight class below them.

Case in point, the adder has 16 tons of podspace (an outlier for a light mech, but still), the linebacker has 17 tons. One is 35 tons, the other is 65 tons. The adder is using nearly half its weight for podspace, the linebacker is using just over a quarter. In a game where non-weapon performance matters, there would be a place for that, and frankly, the lack of special equipment that ISNT just weapons is a huge blind spot and loss for MWO, but, we dont have that game. MWO is about shooting. Anything that doesn't shoot is difficult to justify and thats why these mechs are weird.

[Void Angel]

And if that Adder runs into a Linebacker, who would win? That Linebacker has literally almost twice the durability with the same pod space, and the heavier, tougher 'mech is also just as fast. Positioning and durability do matter, which is why Lights play so much differently from a Dire Wolf. If only shooting mattered, everyone would be running Stone Rhinos with the minimum XL for their heat sink space.

As an aside, Clans also like to have smaller 'mechs doing the job of a heavier 'mech, too. The Adder can field just over half its tonnage as pod space because it's got a lower engine cap than a lot of IS Mediums, but its architecture and that fast-Medium level of speed mean that you can't play it like a Firestarter or Locust.

Edited by Void Angel, 24 December 2024 - 07:22 AM.

[pbiggz]

Void Angel, on 24 December 2024 - 07:17 AM, said:

And if that Adder runs into a Linebacker, who would win? That Linebacker has literally almost twice the durability with the same pod space, and the heavier, tougher 'mech is also just as fast. Positioning and durability do matter, which is why Lights play so much differently from a Dire Wolf. If only shooting mattered, everyone would be running Stone Rhinos with the minimum XL for their heat sink space.

As an aside, Clans also like to have smaller 'mechs doing the job of a heavier 'mech, too. The Adder can field just over half its tonnage as pod space because it's got a lower engine cap than a lot of IS Mediums, but its architecture and that fast-Medium level of speed mean that you can't play it like a Firestarter or Locust.

Yeah its a really weird mech. The adder, cougar, and kitfox are if anything examples of the opposite; really under-engined mechs in their class that basically live and die on their quirks because if they just had vanilla armour stats they'd die in one to two hits; all the drawbacks of being a light mech but none of the benefits of being a medium mech.

Im not arguing you cant make the lanner or the linebacker work, im just saying they're weird mechs. They build weird. They behave weird. They dont translate well to a game where the one and only priority for players is killing the other team.

[Void Angel]

Well, the Linebacker does it better than you might expect. I have a stock-pod Prime with SRMs and MPLs that actually does pretty well when I can cooperate with my team. Of course, I haven't played it for a while, so the meta may have shifted to make it harder... In any case, don't undervalue the, er, value of being a lot tougher at the same level of map mobility. An Inner Sphere 'mech couldn't do it, but the Clans' weaponry allows you to build out respectable damage with a lower tonnage.

I kind of like the weirdness; I think that some of the Clan battlemechs were deliberately designed, in part, to shake up weight class roles a little bit. So you have the Cougar, that runs exactly as fast as a lot of Mediums, and things like the Lanner that go faster than the norm - and Heavies like the Timber Wolf that keep up with all those Mediums, and so on. It lends variety, and as long as rear armor is a thing, I think mobility is part of your ability to kill other 'mechs - it's not just the guns.

[GreyNovember]

Void Angel, on 24 December 2024 - 12:37 AM, said:

This reminds me of something - do you use throttle decay?

I do for the most part once we're out of spawn and actually engaging, yes.

[RacerX]

The Black Lanner was extremely popular in the early years of Faction Play. Mostly for that ECM module. Clan teams would group around the lanner and march in under cover until they got to the target. ECM was fairly impenetrable back then. Also, all the mechs we have today did not exist back then. Therefore, it filled its role very well and then some.

[LordNothing]

take hits, die, carry a disapointing loadout. i can name a few.

[kalashnikity]

foamyesque, on 23 December 2024 - 09:12 PM, said:

Zero leg armour is an extremely risky play. You'd have to delete both sinks and pull some armour off the head to get to anything reasonable for the legs, at which point you only have 10 sinks to the SHC's 14. The much stronger quirks offset that, but you also have no JJs and I don't think the extra 20kph ground speed you get is worth that trade.

The Lanner's just over-engined, I think, like many other Clan omnis such as the Linebacker or Viper, both of which would be far deadlier if they dropped a movement rating and put that tonnage to use with the ridiculously lightweight Clan guns.

I forgot to put armor on the legs.

This is the build.

No extra heat sinks, shave one arm, head, and distribute the rest of the shaving between the weapon arm and legs.

https://mwo.nav-alph...=56696c7f_BKL-A

[Void Angel]

GreyNovember, on 24 December 2024 - 10:59 AM, said:

I do for the most part once we're out of spawn and actually engaging, yes.

Good. There's no downside to setting your throttle via the numpad, or whatever - but there's a known issue with the game that applies constraints on how fast your 'mech can change speeds with Throttle Decay on, as opposed to off. I don't know why, but it's been tested: throttle decay allows you to change speeds faster - even if you hit the full stop key. So everyone needs Throttle Decay on.

[kalashnikity]

This is what I was talking about, I'd forgotten exactly how it went.

2xERPPC, and shave armor as needed, and it's heavily quirked for PPC.

It is annoyingly fast.

(And tends to stay hidden better as there are no jump jets to temp you)

And it has significantly more armor than the Shadowcat (Glass Cannon).

AH:D<:11p^0=W7q^0;W7|1Cr00:W7sO0>W7|1Ct[0?W7u[0@W7v>09W7|m<2w706060

[kalashnikity]

149.9 kph with MASC, reposition like a boss. I'm not very good with 2 erppc, but I've seen people who are.

[pbiggz]

Void Angel, on 24 December 2024 - 10:07 AM, said:

Well, the Linebacker does it better than you might expect. I have a stock-pod Prime with SRMs and MPLs that actually does pretty well when I can cooperate with my team. Of course, I haven't played it for a while, so the meta may have shifted to make it harder... In any case, don't undervalue the, er, value of being a lot tougher at the same level of map mobility. An Inner Sphere 'mech couldn't do it, but the Clans' weaponry allows you to build out respectable damage with a lower tonnage.

I kind of like the weirdness; I think that some of the Clan battlemechs were deliberately designed, in part, to shake up weight class roles a little bit. So you have the Cougar, that runs exactly as fast as a lot of Mediums, and things like the Lanner that go faster than the norm - and Heavies like the Timber Wolf that keep up with all those Mediums, and so on. It lends variety, and as long as rear armor is a thing, I think mobility is part of your ability to kill other 'mechs - it's not just the guns.

iirc i've done alright work in both the linebacker and the black lanner; if you have enough tonnage for double cerppc or laser vomit (both do) then your mech is workable at least; I just would have liked to see more build variety on those mechs, and the tight pod space basically makes that an impossibility.

To be fair, if you gave the linebacker more space it would just be like a hellbringer with better hitboxes, so there is that.

Again I maintain the addition of really a lot of special equipment and armor types; the "build around me" kind, would be a real step forward for the game; it would simultaneously add massive build variety and lower alphas because less tonnage would be dedicated strictly to shooting, but perhaps thats another thread.

[Ttly]

Void Angel, on 22 December 2024 - 05:52 AM, said:

MASC isn't about overland speed - it's about burst mobility and acceleration. Now, go count up the total durability on an Arctic Cheeta and compare to the Black Lanner. To save you the math, the Lanner has about 41% more armor. It's also a larger 'mech, with a different movement archetype, and has a significant advantage in sustainment and damage (the ACH with 6 ERML only has 11 DHS, which in turn has an outsized impact on cooling, given its heat dissipation quirk.)

Just because something else runs the same loadout, that doesn't make them functionally identical 'mechs. The ACH is going to be less able to sustain damage, and more vulnerable to return fire, while the Lanner of course cannot jump but can reverse back into cover extremely fast. So the way you have to pilot each of those 'mechs is going to be different.

Look at it from your own argument's perspective: since the Lanner can mount the same ERML loadout as the ACH, is the ACH just a more fragile and hot Lanner without MASC? Of course not; the differences between the 'mechs give each one a unique flavor and unique challenges in piloting well - don't mistake sharing a build archetype with being an inferior (or superior) copy.

What, did everyone really forgot the Ice Ferret is a thing as a better direct comparison mech to the Black Lanner? It and the BKL shares similar loadouts (especially to mixed pods IFR), similar total armor+structure (thanks to quirks), similar mobility (though the BKL needs to make up for its lower agility with MASC), etc.
Except the BKL gets to have more free tonnage, more speed (when MASC is on), and bigger hitbox as negative sure, and a bit less heat quirks, but that extra free tonnage lets it have the option to cram in DHS to match the IFR's heat quirks or more weapons (but no lower arm actuators if people care about that), something the IFR doesn't even have the option of.
It absolutely is just the IFR but better assuming you can get past the MASC skill floor. Which you could argue is its point of unique challenge I guess. Or you know, a "worse IFR because it's a 55t that is harder to fit into Faction Play decks" depending on how you look at it, not like FP is a balanced mode.

Edited by Ttly, 25 December 2024 - 06:29 PM.