63 replies to this topic

[Xetelian]

Don't expose yourself and they can't shave 20% of your armor before you do whatever you were doing

NVA and SCR both are slower and can fit better setups but not with ECM or MASC
Shadowcat has 2 setups and almost no hardpoints

The rush up and brawl game play doesn't work wtih fast but smal lmechs

Edited by Xetelian, 25 December 2024 - 06:36 PM.

[Void Angel]

Ttly, on 25 December 2024 - 06:09 PM, said:

What, did everyone really forgot the Ice Ferret is a thing as a better direct comparison mech to the Black Lanner? It and the BKL shares similar loadouts (especially to mixed pods IFR), similar total armor+structure (thanks to quirks), similar mobility (though the BKL needs to make up for its lower agility with MASC), etc.
Except the BKL gets to have more free tonnage, more speed (when MASC is on), and bigger hitbox as negative sure, and a bit less heat quirks, but that extra free tonnage lets it have the option to cram in DHS to match the IFR's heat quirks or more weapons (but no lower arm actuators if people care about that), something the IFR doesn't even have the option of.
It absolutely is just the IFR but better assuming you can get past the MASC skill floor. Which you could argue is its point of unique challenge I guess. Or you know, a "worse IFR because it's a 55t that is harder to fit into Faction Play decks" depending on how you look at it, not like FP is a balanced mode.

The Ice Ferret is another near-substitute, but you're making some hasty generalizations here that lead you somewhat astray. As I pointed out in where you quoted me, just having the same loadout doesn't make a 'mech play the same. Take the ERML+HLL Skirmish build for the Ice Ferret; The Lanner version has slightly less sustained damage than the Ice Ferret, but significantly more durability, and of course MASC. On the other hand, everyone's favorite refrigerator has better sustained speed and hardpoint placement. If we strip the HLL and replace it with Heat Sinks, the Fridge has significantly more sustain (it's weapon heat and heat dissipation quirks make DHS scale really well.) But then, to use that sustain you'll want to be maximizing your ability to peek and hide quickly, which is where MASC shines. This is probably why GrimMechs does not recommend an ERML+HLL build for the Lanner, nor a pure ERML build for the Ice Ferret.

I'm not promising anyone that one of these chassis is, or is not, empirically better than the other - just that they're different enough to play like, well, different 'mechs.

[sycocys]

https://mwo.nav-alph...=abf4528f_BKL-D

5 HML, 2 SRM6 +1.5 tons, BAP

https://mwo.nav-alph...bb89_BKL-PRIMES

3 HML, 2 SRM6/a + 2.5 tons, ECM -- srm6/a with an additional -25% spread

Is it better/worse than other medium mechs? Sure on both. Masc on a medium brawler with already elevated speed for doing cover to cover bursts or clearing cover on engaged enemies doesn't seem like a downside to me.

[Warblast]

epikt, on 23 December 2024 - 09:22 PM, said:

Especially on a Lanner, this mech is basically dead if legged.
Here is a build for the dual pips. Pretty decent harasser.

This is the better build, IMO, than the torso/opposite arm builds. Shield with right arm/right torso from incoming fire. Stay at max range as much as possible. My build shaves armor for a single extra head sink for sustain, but it's risky. This thread reminded me that I haven't used it in a while, so I decided to take it for a quick spin.

https://drive.google...?usp=drive_link

This isn't the best map for the build, honestly. It works best with a open maps with lots of running room like Grim. Still, once you get used to the play style, it can be extremely effective, even in non-ideal scenarios.

[epikt]

Warblast, on 27 December 2024 - 11:06 AM, said:

My build shaves armor for a single extra head sink for sustain, but it's risky.

I don't think it's worth the low armor. There's already a -30% heat generation, the mech is really cool.

If you're not faint of heart, I can suggest you a pure brawl build with micro pulses and SRMs. It's a mech we used in Tournament of Stars, it did well enough. Sometimes I take it to quick play, it's pretty hard to pilot because you have to know when and where to engage, but it's a good practice of discipline and eventually can be effective.

[An6ryMan69]

Lanner is okay when run in groups as fast strikers working together.

Otherwise they are pretty much a nonsense mech IMO.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The Lanner is better if you can commit to a brawl due to its durability and lack of good options for sustained damage outside of just brawl. Ice Ferret is better off harassing at mid range not only because it has better heat gen quirks, but because it also has a notorious glass jaw that makes it somewhat of a liability in brawls, and that includes the J which I think too many people overvalue. The Viper is the better dual PPC mech over the Lanner/Ferret though because it has the best flat speed, the best mounts, and JJs. Sure you don't get ECM, but TBH ECM isn't the most important part of that build anyway.

[kalashnikity]

Warblast, on 27 December 2024 - 11:06 AM, said:

This is the better build, IMO, than the torso/opposite arm builds. Shield with right arm/right torso from incoming fire. Stay at max range as much as possible. My build shaves armor for a single extra head sink for sustain, but it's risky. This thread reminded me that I haven't used it in a while, so I decided to take it for a quick spin.

https://drive.google...?usp=drive_link

This isn't the best map for the build, honestly. It works best with a open maps with lots of running room like Grim. Still, once you get used to the play style, it can be extremely effective, even in non-ideal scenarios.

I like the Torso/Op Arm build so much, I made a miniature version out of a Fle-20

A;;;20D0|4dp@0|i^|^<2q@0|i^|G@r10|[<2s<0|i^|i^|G@t@0u@0v30w404040

[Jon Gotham]

GreyNovember, on 22 December 2024 - 04:58 AM, said:

Where is this fun?

I think i mentioned all the above things "you can do with it", and derided them as subpar compared to another chassis in the OP, while also highlighting how it's choice of locked components is so suboptimal compared to every other offering.

I suppose if you LIKE shooting yourself in the foot or running around in something objectively worse at the detriment of everyone who is stuck with you, that's... a kind of fun. But I'd like something the chassis can do BECAUSE of how it's designed, not in spite of it.

Is optimal tied to your notion of fun?

[pattonesque]

like a light, the Lanner can choose its own engagements much of the time, but its significant short-range firepower and 55-tonner armor also means that it has a wide band of chosen engagements where it can bully an opponent. Lanners can chase down and leg fleeing lights, run up on LRM boats and rip them apart, risk some incoming fire in order to confirm a kill on a wide open mech that's gone into cover, turn a 1-on-1 into a 2-on-1, turn a 1-on-2 into a 2-on-2, harass or kill snipers, and so on. Also unlike a light, it can survive choosing a bad engagement and receiving a big, well-aimed alpha because it can absorb more fire.

tough to use but it's a good robbit

[GreyNovember]

Jon Gotham, on 31 December 2024 - 05:23 AM, said:

Is optimal tied to your notion of fun?

If I only wanted to play Optimal, I'd only chase the the most popular chassis, and never bother considering the BL.

I'd prefer to not feel like I chose the worst possible mech in a team game, and what that team game tends to reward, to start.

pattonesque, on 01 January 2025 - 10:54 AM, said:

like a light, the Lanner can choose its own engagements much of the time, but its significant short-range firepower and 55-tonner armor also means that it has a wide band of chosen engagements where it can bully an opponent. Lanners can chase down and leg fleeing lights, run up on LRM boats and rip them apart, risk some incoming fire in order to confirm a kill on a wide open mech that's gone into cover, turn a 1-on-1 into a 2-on-1, turn a 1-on-2 into a 2-on-2, harass or kill snipers, and so on. Also unlike a light, it can survive choosing a bad engagement and receiving a big, well-aimed alpha because it can absorb more fire.

tough to use but it's a good robbit

Could you point me to recent videos of a Lanner doing this? Because in my experience trying to use it like I would a close range light mech ends up with me exploded faster than said light mech. Size + hittability < armor values, etc.

Again, maybe I'm just objectively incompetent.

[pattonesque]

GreyNovember, on 01 January 2025 - 02:48 PM, said:

Could you point me to recent videos of a Lanner doing this? Because in my experience trying to use it like I would a close range light mech ends up with me exploded faster than said light mech. Size + hittability < armor values, etc.

Again, maybe I'm just objectively incompetent.

I'd have to dig for a video but you don't *quite* use it like a light. It's not as good at running up on certain big pinpoint alpha mechs, for instance, because the important bits are easier to hit. you have to hit and fade way more than you might in a light. think of it like this: it outguns/armors anything that is as faster or faster than it, and it outruns anything that outguns it. In the former case, you can negate the advantage a light mech has in choosing its engagements (until your MASC runs out or the light runs back to friends, you can stick to it long enough to saw off a leg). In the latter, you can simply choose not to engage something dangerous to you until it has its back turned, or it's being jumped by another mech, or it has valuable components open.

[epikt]

GreyNovember, on 01 January 2025 - 02:48 PM, said:

Could you point me to recent videos of a Lanner doing this?

Actually I have a couple of drops with a brawler Bellonarius (the build I linked in a previous message) I planned to upload on my YT, sooo... your wish will be granted soon (I can't access my editing software right now so it'll take a few days)

It's a tricky mech to play, because as you noticed it's very vulnerable. Especially I find it a poor duelist (it's good to chase other mechs though, but don't let them strike back).
Thus you need to pick your fights carefully. Even more than usual, never pick fair fights, prey on the weak and isolated, be opportunistic, hunt in pack, strike the rear, etc...

I actually find dropping solo with this mech to be a good practice for patience, discipline and situational awareness. Of course you sometimes have terrible games, it's not the most reliable, but piloted right it can really pull its weight in a battle.

[Void Angel]

GreyNovember, on 01 January 2025 - 02:48 PM, said:

Again, maybe I'm just objectively incompetent.

There is a vast gulf in semantic space between "incompetent," and "I could be doing this better." I'm not able to play right now, so I can't go test the Lanner myself - but at a guess, I'd say you're probably overextending a bit in order to get at the Lights you mentioned, and getting hit by their team - or else overextending and getting pounced on by Lights with support from their teammates. Either way, try staying closer to your own teammates when you can, and use their fields of fire to limit what your opponents can do to close with you and maintain contact.

Edited by Void Angel, 02 January 2025 - 06:01 AM.

[RockmachinE]

GreyNovember, on 01 January 2025 - 02:48 PM, said:

Again, maybe I'm just objectively incompetent.

This would be correct.

[Johny Rocket]

They simply can't all be winners for every pilot. If it doesn't work for me with a few goes at what I put on it I move on to a different mech. I have a Lanner but honestly can't remember last time I played it because it simply doesn't work with my play style when other mechs that are considered bench warmers do and I do great in them.

Why get hung up on why 1 mech of hundreds available doesn't work for you?

[GreyNovember]

Johny Rocket, on 02 January 2025 - 10:18 AM, said:

Why get hung up on why 1 mech of hundreds available doesn't work for you?

Mostly because I dropped event MC on the Hero variant, and a desire to get SOMETHING from it that isn't disappointment.

Prior to actual combat testing, I had a fairly good impression of "Fast Mech" from playing lights in general, 55 tonners from... well, clan mechs in general, and ECM always being great to not be immediately lit up on someone's ( and by extension their entire team's) sensors.

Last match I had I tried the 6ERML build, and didn't feel like I was doing anything of value popping 36 DoT every few seconds.

Ended up the last alive against two enemy mechs, then died because I didn't peek all corners properly, which was entirely my fault. Could have been an absolute ******* and just stayed at the very edge of my range.

[epikt]

GreyNovember, on 01 January 2025 - 02:48 PM, said:

Could you point me to recent videos of a Lanner doing this?

Those are solo drops in T1. Nothing spectacular but decent enough, I didn't grind for it. I spared you the Alpine Peaks where I could do nothing but die an horrible death still last week I only played 3 or 4 games with this mech so its not cherry picked.

GreyNovember, on 02 January 2025 - 08:10 PM, said:

Last match I had I tried the 6ERML build, and didn't feel like I was doing anything of value popping 36 DoT every few seconds.

6 ERMLas can do work, but I agree it's not my fav... 5 MPLas is imho better and more reliable, even despite the lesser range.
For more range (and ECM), maybe try 2 HLLas.

[GreyNovember]

epikt, on 02 January 2025 - 10:27 PM, said:

The immediate reaction to the Jenner IIC embodies my main problem trying to play the Lanner. It'd do so much more damage, so quickly, usually with a faster sustainable exit and with a smaller general profile to shoot at. Your build without ECM, I'm glancing at the Piranha for a similar effect for the same benefits.

But "This mech can do that job better" has been repeated ad nauseam at this point.

What I'm picking up from this is, you can't use a Lanner as a solo hunter, and it requires you to have coordination to make it work while never being the center of attention yourself, or you explode.

Which... FEELS like a Win-More entity, than a duelist, or something that can punch up and cause an imbalance if it trades.

[Void Angel]

"Win-more" v. Solo hunter v. Trader is the wrong way to look at a Medium. Even with fast (and thus somewhat less-armed) Mediums like the Lanner, your role is to make wins. You're fast enough to work multiple angles in the fight, helping a Heavy trade here, taking that extra shot to kill or cripple an enemy there, and so forth. If larger 'mechs are fighting, add your fire power to the fray; if a Light is harassing your Assaults, hammer him from an angle with your own guns. You don't have to kill, or even cripple, a Light 'mech in order to ruin his day - just dealing significant damage to him forces him to be much more risk-averse for the rest of the match.

Going out hunting away from the team will work better with something like Epikt's Eleventy Pulse Lasers + SRM build. That's what he's doing for the most part in the first match of the linked video, with pretty good judgement for when to disengage or back off - take 0:55 and 1:50 early on. With a close-range build, a fast Medium is going to be more about applying pressure to an area than ranging far and wide taking shots at people. At the start of the video, the only reason those two Lights tried to fight the Lanner is that there were two of them - and the Lanner was holding its own well enough. As soon as reinforcements showed up, they noped out; that's what the Lanner is good for: more firepower than a fast Light with less speed, but with better burst agility and armor.

I'm going to reiterate this concept, though: the Arctic Cheetah is not simply a smaller, more-agile clone of the Lanner. Yeah, they both have ECM, and some of the builds they can run are similar - but no ACH can mount 11 energy weapons, and the Lanner has half again the available tonnage for guns. In Epikt's video, he's changing directions and speeds faster than an ACH - it's more akin to a 20-tonner's movement archetype. This means that while you have to play it differently than an ACH, the Lanner can do things that the ACH can't.

Edited by Void Angel, 03 January 2025 - 04:31 AM.