10 replies to this topic

[Ttly]

It really comes off like a defeated designer throwing their hands up and just saying
"Ok, let's just allow this thing to have as much alpha strike damage as possible with 50+ near-pinpoint damage!"
Cue the 4BLC, 2UAC20, builds blowing up people without the downside of a rocket launcher build.
It's not as offensive on lower tonnage because well, lower tonnage mechs aren't as durable or the alpha isn't that high in the first place because they can't afford the tonnage.

[East Indy]

It's a two-part problem rooted in the game's original design flaws.

MWO lacks an effective limit to total damage dealt in brief windows of time, e.g., ≤1 second. (Heat Scale is a limit; just not effective.)

As a consequence, higher tonnage usually makes the most sense, because damage dealt per time window has such a high ceiling.

With this design narrowing practical choices, essentially "deleting content," devs consider exemptions, HSL, that make variants more practical while keeping alphas within general limits, generous as they are.

I'm sure some decisions are the "f- it" variety, too, given the life stage of the game.

[Lincoln Cross]

Ttly, on 12 January 2025 - 11:32 AM, said:

It really comes off like a defeated designer throwing their hands up and just saying
"Ok, let's just allow this thing to have as much alpha strike damage as possible with 50+ near-pinpoint damage!"
Cue the 4BLC, 2UAC20, builds blowing up people without the downside of a rocket launcher build.
It's not as offensive on lower tonnage because well, lower tonnage mechs aren't as durable or the alpha isn't that high in the first place because they can't afford the tonnage.

What mech is this, pray tell?

[Ttly]

Lincoln Cross, on 12 January 2025 - 12:45 PM, said:

What mech is this, pray tell?

CGR-3K (as fast/faster than some heavies, more armor, and obviously more damage), some of the Banes (2, 4, 7, Leviathan somewhat just because it doesn't shoot bursts, surprisingly not that overwhelming though because it's really slow and actually glass), Bullshark-5 (as much armor as 100t mechs and with actual agility), DWF-A (like the Bane but can tank slightly more), GAR-A (doesn't actually have that much free tonnage to use its +HSL quirk that well), EXE-E (same as GAR-A), MAD-IIC-2, HGN-IIC (counter synergy against its jumping gimmick though). King Crab (low hardpoint placement), the Stone Crusher and SR-6 also does something similar even if slightly less range, Fafnir-6U, NSR-9S
A lot of things really, yeah I included 3HLL mechs there which are kind of meh just because of how long the burn duration and how high the HPS is though compared to 4BLC which is really just the CGR-3K, but still, it's really reducing the mech to just "hey, you get a free pass to do more alpha because even more -heat or -cooldown or other interesting quirks like more JJ thrust and -fall damage (looking at you HGN-IIC) are overrated (which they are to some degree)".

[LordNothing]

ghost heat in general was a lazy mechanic (one among many). if the the goal was to force players to spread damage out over time to keep some of the bigger damage dumps at bay, then it completely failed to do it. stack the right quirks with the right nodes, a coolshot or two, to lessen the effect, or stack the right weapons to circumvent it all together. hsl is just another loophole. what its become is another gamble mechanic much like uacs. to risk getting more damage, sometimes a lot of damage, condensed into a tiny slice of time, for a slim chance that your mech overheats (with so many mitigations available to make it only a minor inconvenience).

as bad as the system is, the cauldron have done a fairly good job trying to balance it. but that doesn't make it any less lazy.

[w0qj]

Unashamed plug on this HSL Quirk List posting
https://mwomercs.com...-hsl-quirk-list

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ttly, on 12 January 2025 - 01:11 PM, said:

CGR-3K (as fast/faster than some heavies, more armor, and obviously more damage), some of the Banes (2, 4, 7, Leviathan somewhat just because it doesn't shoot bursts, surprisingly not that overwhelming though because it's really slow and actually glass), Bullshark-5 (as much armor as 100t mechs and with actual agility), DWF-A (like the Bane but can tank slightly more), GAR-A (doesn't actually have that much free tonnage to use its +HSL quirk that well), EXE-E (same as GAR-A), MAD-IIC-2, HGN-IIC (counter synergy against its jumping gimmick though). King Crab (low hardpoint placement), the Stone Crusher and SR-6 also does something similar even if slightly less range, Fafnir-6U, NSR-9S
A lot of things really, yeah I included 3HLL mechs there which are kind of meh just because of how long the burn duration and how high the HPS is though compared to 4BLC which is really just the CGR-3K, but still, it's really reducing the mech to just "hey, you get a free pass to do more alpha because even more -heat or -cooldown or other interesting quirks like more JJ thrust and -fall damage (looking at you HGN-IIC) are overrated (which they are to some degree)".

Out of all the mechs you listed, the most meta one is the Bullshark and may not quite deserve it and the CGR-3K lost it's heat gen quirk that made 4 BLC even remotely competitive with other options (so it's back to 4 LPL/4 LXPL). Everything else you listed either has it because of lore (UAC20 HSLs are garbage on assaults because UAC20s are bad and so are most "brawling" assaults), or because the hardpoints aren't favorable for it to have firepower with them (HGN-IIC is a good example). Yes, this is all because there is no damage quirk and there is only so much cooldown/heat quirks can do before they get goofier than just giving the mech extra damage. TBH HSLs have kind of taken over a role similar to sized hardpoints which isn't a problem itself, it's just that ghost heat as a mechanic is not really the greatest.

East Indy, on 12 January 2025 - 11:51 AM, said:

It's a two-part problem rooted in the game's original design flaws.

MWO lacks an effective limit to total damage dealt in brief windows of time, e.g., ≤1 second. (Heat Scale is a limit; just not effective.)

As a consequence, higher tonnage usually makes the most sense, because damage dealt per time window has such a high ceiling.

With this design narrowing practical choices, essentially "deleting content," devs consider exemptions, HSL, that make variants more practical while keeping alphas within general limits, generous as they are.

I don't think your take is quite correct as bigger weapons are typically LESS efficient than lighter ones. Compare the numbers for HLL vs cERMLs; cERMLs are just hands down better if you have the hardpoints and aren't already at your HSL limit. In other words if you don't have the hardpoints to supplement your laser alpha with cERMLs, typically you are left with only gigavomit for mid range or just stagger firing LPL/ERLLs, and DPS builds with low mounts typically don't justify themselves well because you can take too much initial damage and not be punishing enough once you do expose. This is why mechs like the Nova Cat or Supernova suffer without HSLs because they really need to have punishing damage like the old Space Whale used to have to make exposing worth it.

[kalashnikity]

If you want lore, then play MW5, where there is zero chance a light mech could ever kill an Atlas, aside from a lucky cockpit strike, or some extreme stuff that is not available in MWO, and only available through mods, or if the assault is a LRM boat.

As it is, the game so well balanced that any class of mech can kill any other class of mech.

There is nothing, currently, game breaking, and occasional variant with an HSL quirk doesn't really matter.

I recently bought a Bullshark BSK-5 or it's HLS+1 Energy HSL +1 Ballistic, but it's a little too hot for the AC20x2 SNPPC x3 build I had in mind.

If I could stuff more double heat sinks in it could be OP, but best heat management build I could come up with was 1.2/2

Meaning the classic AC20x1 SNPPCx2 MRM40 builds might still be slightly more viable due to better heat management.

Aki020]1|I@|Jd|i^p71|I@|i^|i^|LGq71|I@|i^|i^|LGrI0|X?sI0|X?tG0|@O|@OuG0|@O|@Ov80|`Ow;09090

BSK-3

I know it's not ideal with the XLon an assault, but it's the best heat management I could figure out, and it's still too hot.

[kalashnikity]

I'll probably end up running something like this on my BSK-3

Aki020]1|i^|Ug|LG|LGp71|I@|i^|i^|[<2q71|I@|i^|i^|[<2rI0|X?sI0|X?tG0|@O|@OuG0|@O|@Ov80|@Ow;09090

Definitely nothing game breaking, just a solid no frills brawl build. 2xAC20 2xSNPPC couple of jump jets and some case.

Ttly, on 12 January 2025 - 01:11 PM, said:

CGR-3K (as fast/faster than some heavies, more armor, and obviously more damage), some of the Banes (2, 4, 7, Leviathan somewhat just because it doesn't shoot bursts, surprisingly not that overwhelming though because it's really slow and actually glass), Bullshark-5 (as much armor as 100t mechs and with actual agility), DWF-A (like the Bane but can tank slightly more), GAR-A (doesn't actually have that much free tonnage to use its +HSL quirk that well), EXE-E (same as GAR-A), MAD-IIC-2, HGN-IIC (counter synergy against its jumping gimmick though). King Crab (low hardpoint placement), the Stone Crusher and SR-6 also does something similar even if slightly less range, Fafnir-6U, NSR-9S
A lot of things really, yeah I included 3HLL mechs there which are kind of meh just because of how long the burn duration and how high the HPS is though compared to 4BLC which is really just the CGR-3K, but still, it's really reducing the mech to just "hey, you get a free pass to do more alpha because even more -heat or -cooldown or other interesting quirks like more JJ thrust and -fall damage (looking at you HGN-IIC) are overrated (which they are to some degree)".

I have a CGR-3K with 4BLC, it's not game breaking, while it does perform fairly consistently well, the limited range is a pretty serious drawback, and it is a fairly hot build for mid range brawling.

IDK what would make the DWF-1 game breaking, 3xHHL and a HAG 40? Nope. 2ERPPC and a Hag 40? Nope.

[Wraith 1]

HSL quirks are awesome. Armor is inflated high enough that 50+ pinpoint alpha isn't even scary anymore, and virtually all mechs with an HSL quirk either have:
1. Horribly bad geometry/mount points
2. Little to no other outstanding quirks
3. A canon build that already uses that many weapons
4. Not enough hardpoints to be otherwise competetive in its weight class
5. All of the above

I have yet to see any HSL quirked mech be too dominant in QP or FP except for maybe the AS7-RS (which was really the LXPL's fault), and it ultimately gives way more variety than just slapping -50% cooldown or whatever on anything turbobad enough to need a heavy handed quirkening to be remotely playable.

[Duke Falcon]

kalashnikity, on 12 January 2025 - 08:01 PM, said:

If you want lore, then play MW5, where there is zero chance a light mech could ever kill an Atlas, aside from a lucky cockpit strike, or some extreme stuff that is not available in MWO, and only available through mods, or if the assault is a LRM boat.

As it is, the game so well balanced that any class of mech can kill any other class of mech.

There is nothing, currently, game breaking, and occasional variant with an HSL quirk doesn't really matter.

I recently bought a Bullshark BSK-5 or it's HLS+1 Energy HSL +1 Ballistic, but it's a little too hot for the AC20x2 SNPPC x3 build I had in mind.

If I could stuff more double heat sinks in it could be OP, but best heat management build I could come up with was 1.2/2

Meaning the classic AC20x1 SNPPCx2 MRM40 builds might still be slightly more viable due to better heat management.

Aki020]1|I@|Jd|i^p71|I@|i^|i^|LGq71|I@|i^|i^|LGrI0|X?sI0|X?tG0|@O|@OuG0|@O|@Ov80|`Ow;09090

BSK-3

I know it's not ideal with the XLon an assault, but it's the best heat management I could figure out, and it's still too hot.

I use a BSK-4 now.
2xLB20X + 5xSRM6 + 3xsPL...
If something gets within 300m the LBX-SRM combo devastates it. Only drawback so far are team.
This beast wreck if get moving but if team not follows your push... Wait, thats true for all assaults it seems...

BTW, on IS chassis (I thinking about an Awesome or a Battlemaster to buy):
What may the better option: a bunch of SnubPPCs or Binary lazorz?
I have a natural likeness towards PPCs but I saw more and more lasboats lately...