38 replies to this topic

[Void Angel]

You keep on trying to hand-wave away that range advantage as inconsequential, and it's not going to work - no matter how many straw men you ineptly manufacture. Did you even notice that you're accusing me of pretending that Clantech is inferior to the IS? What I actually said was:

Void Angel, on 16 January 2025 - 10:52 AM, said:

Sure it is. Or rather, the entire package is pretty well balanced against the IS counterpart, and 37.5% extra range is a not-insignificant factor in that. The difference in DPS is 1.4% of the IS LPL's stats, for reference - HPS is 7% lower, and DPH is 8% lower. I'm not going to break out my graphing calculator to calculate damage falloff, but you don't have to be very far outside the IS effective range before that higher DPS and DPH are subsumed by damage falloff. Stack that with the rest of the Clan kit - which include your space-effective double heat sinks - and stuff evens out, provided you evaluate the tech under actual match conditions. Laser duration is important; so is a third more range.

Telling lies about an argument that is literally right here on the same page is a sub-optimum strategy, but I guess you have to work with what you have. Me, I'll keep on using factual arguments while you make up "facts" to reason from.

The Crael, for example, does not "dominate" in matches - it is a one-trick pony that everyone knows about now. Crael players have to work the outsides of a fight and try to find that one guy on the flank that they can face-hug to death. You almost never see Craels any more, last I checked - because enemy teams pick them apart from range. This is because range advantages matter. In other news, Inner Sphere 'mechs have lower agility overall, because they have to buy that speed with fragility, and the point you were "responding" to was that you can't compare apples to oranges by pretending that the LPL is the only laser that exists; balance is an ecosystem, not a line-by-line comparison. The only thing you've succeeded in doing by trying - and failing - to be clever, is to demonstrate once again that bias confirmation is your primary reasoning method.

You can copy the format of my post, but trying to mirror my criticisms back at me isn't going to work for you, either - because all you've succeeded in doing is to accuse me of bad arguments that you have made, and I have not. Aping my verbiage doesn't put your arguments in my league - it just makes you look like a chump. If you want to have your Clan power fantasy, go play MW5.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ttly, on 17 January 2025 - 01:57 PM, said:

Even given the range disadvantage, that has never stopped mechs like the Crael with its short range and high DPS HMG+SRM builds from dominating in matches.

I missed this one, just lol.

[Void Angel]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 18 January 2025 - 09:28 AM, said:

I missed this one, just lol.

I know, right?

[D A T A]

Saved By The Bell, on 16 January 2025 - 04:25 AM, said:

I sometimes use Large pulse lasers on builds, which made for it.

As clan pulse laser is superb, like slow 4 laser rifleman, I found that IS pulse lasers are bad.
Just now I am in AWESOME AWS-8T, it made for 4 pulse lasers. So x-pulse are good, but pulse lasers weak.

Its my problem or they really so bad?

my friend, the game doesn't work this way (unfortunatelly).

The Cauldron has spammed so many quirks around that you NEVER compare weapon with weapon, but mech with mech, due to the ******* reta*ded differences in core things like quirks, heat tree and heat dissipation from DHS.
After you have done a proper heat calculation, accounting superior IS DHS and superior IS heat skill tree, you must factor in the LASER DURATION, survival quirks, the agility and the mount location.

If you study the game more, you will come to the conclusion that most of the IS laser combos s*it all over their clan counterparts with an eye closed and a hand on your di*k

Edited by D A T A, 20 January 2025 - 06:51 AM.

[Duke Falcon]

D A T A, on 20 January 2025 - 06:47 AM, said:

my friend, the game doesn't work this way (unfortunatelly).

The Cauldron has spammed so many quirks around that you NEVER compare weapon with weapon, but mech with mech, due to the ******* reta*ded differences in core things like quirks, heat tree and heat dissipation from DHS.
After you have done a proper heat calculation, accounting superior IS DHS and superior IS heat skill tree, you must factor in the LASER DURATION, survival quirks, the agility and the mount location.

If you study the game more, you will come to the conclusion that most of the IS laser combos s*it all over their clan counterparts with an eye closed and a hand on your di*k

Dunno, I feel somehow the lasers are not implemented perfectly into the game alltogether...
Not sure why they feel bugged but they do bugged. Maybe the insane "burn" time they use?
I got it that those meant that with these weapons one could correct during fire if misaimed...

[LordNothing]

lasers have always felt off to me. like they shouldnt be as good as they are. always figured that infinite trigger pull weapons are more about endurance than raw alpha. the biggest alphas tend to be laser based, with few exceptions, and it kind of steals thunder from ppfld weapons and most ballistics. of course me and data have one thing in common, were biased towards our favorite weapons.

Duke Falcon, on 20 January 2025 - 10:17 AM, said:

Dunno, I feel somehow the lasers are not implemented perfectly into the game alltogether...
Not sure why they feel bugged but they do bugged. Maybe the insane "burn" time they use?
I got it that those meant that with these weapons one could correct during fire if misaimed...

thats the case for non ppfld ballistic weapons. i kind of want all my autocannons to burst and think ppfld should be used more sparingly. a missed laser can correct but a missed ppfld cant, bursts can if they are long enough. ppfld scratches that instant gratification itch, so i figure that's why they are popular. burst is better for shoot'n'scoot platforms. mechs have legs and i get fed up with turret matches.

Edited by LordNothing, 20 January 2025 - 01:08 PM.

[Valdarion Silarius]

Saved By The Bell, on 16 January 2025 - 04:25 AM, said:

I sometimes use Large pulse lasers on builds, which made for it.

As clan pulse laser is superb, like slow 4 laser rifleman, I found that IS pulse lasers are bad.
Just now I am in AWESOME AWS-8T, it made for 4 pulse lasers. So x-pulse are good, but pulse lasers weak.

Its my problem or they really so bad?

I main the Rifleman IIC for quick play/faction play and had the mech since it's pre-order in 2019. It runs incredibly hot despite the HSL cLPL quirk. It's still good but it's not an easy mech to pilot for casual players. You have to treat it like an assault and positioning is key while abusing it's range. I do feel ever since the cDHS nerf the mech has fallen in efficiency, but I do think it's better than it's IS counterparts like the IS Rifleman and the Jagermech. I would the like cDHS nerf to be reverted back to it's pre-nerfed value.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LordNothing, on 20 January 2025 - 12:58 PM, said:

lasers have always felt off to me. like they shouldnt be as good as they are. always figured that infinite trigger pull weapons are more about endurance than raw alpha. the biggest alphas tend to be laser based, with few exceptions, and it kind of steals thunder from ppfld weapons and most ballistics. of course me and data have one thing in common, were biased towards our favorite weapons.

Lasers are good because they have to be for lighter mechs to be relevant. Their low tonnage investment allows lighter mechs to have appreciable firepower without having to spend 30 minutes trying to whittle things down because bigger mechs typically want ballistics if heat is a significant build limiter (provided you can't mount enough heat sinks for lasers to reach the heat efficiency of ballistics). The problem has been that heat has been continually made less oppressive over the years allowing assaults to get away with gigavomit builds and still have appreciable DPS alongside massive alphas. The introduction of the clans and the 2018 heat sink changes were the biggest nudges for laser vomit. I mean before HSR 4 LL K2s and 6 LL Stalkers were strong because it was hitscan so it was less impacted by latency, but HSR ushered in the poptart era unfortunately and continued up until the Clans.

Unfortunately that's kinda how TT was balanced, except in TT ballistics are even worse for lighter mechs when accounting for tonnage instead of BV.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 20 January 2025 - 05:58 PM.

[LordNothing]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 20 January 2025 - 05:56 PM, said:

Lasers are good because they have to be for lighter mechs to be relevant. Their low tonnage investment allows lighter mechs to have appreciable firepower without having to spend 30 minutes trying to whittle things down because bigger mechs typically want ballistics if heat is a significant build limiter (provided you can't mount enough heat sinks for lasers to reach the heat efficiency of ballistics). The problem has been that heat has been continually made less oppressive over the years allowing assaults to get away with gigavomit builds and still have appreciable DPS alongside massive alphas. The introduction of the clans and the 2018 heat sink changes were the biggest nudges for laser vomit. I mean before HSR 4 LL K2s and 6 LL Stalkers were strong because it was hitscan so it was less impacted by latency, but HSR ushered in the poptart era unfortunately and continued up until the Clans.

Unfortunately that's kinda how TT was balanced, except in TT ballistics are even worse for lighter mechs when accounting for tonnage instead of BV.

yea but we didnt have magshots/apgauss, lacs/pacs, lppc/plasma back then either. those weapons have seriously fleshed out the firepower prospects for lights and mediums. were not as dependant on strong lasers as we once were.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LordNothing, on 20 January 2025 - 08:21 PM, said:

yea but we didnt have magshots/apgauss, lacs/pacs, lppc/plasma back then either. those weapons have seriously fleshed out the firepower prospects for lights and mediums. were not as dependant on strong lasers as we once were.

Those have definitely helped (well less so LACs/PACs) which is part of the reason those were all added, that said lasers + MGs is very much a potent part of the meta partially because of that low tonnage investment (well and MGs to help supplement your otherwise crap DPS). That's probably the biggest limitation for most of those weapons you mentioned is that they still eat up a lot of tonnage (which means you might be a bit on the slow side).

[Void Angel]

High alphas also tend toward energy weapons because heat is those weapons' primary balancing mechanism. Becausee of that, it's possible to create builds that defer heat dissipation in favor of alpha firepower - all you really need is the heat capacity to fire once, then sit in cover. All you need is the minimal cooling to not be too vulnerable in the mean time (this is why so many Clan partisans just howled when their DHS got nerfed a while back.) It's the poor man's poptart strategy.

Another factor is that they're hitscan, and all other high-alpha options require the player to work around the differing firing characteristics of alternate guns. You can blast people with a giant alpha of MRMs and SNPPCs, if you want, but you have to juggle the dramatically different firing capabilities of those weapons, as well as alternating weapon groups. A lot of these alternate guns have dramatically shorter ranges than even an ERML, to boot.

Edited by Void Angel, 20 January 2025 - 11:52 PM.

[Papaspud]

Ttly, on 16 January 2025 - 10:36 AM, said:

Extra range isn't a substitute for sub-1second base laser duration.
Besides, in the LPL Awesome's case, it has enough range quirks to pretty much play at that range.

Extra range, damage, and weighs less- fixed it for you...you need to put everything in.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Void Angel, on 20 January 2025 - 11:51 PM, said:

Another factor is that they're hitscan, and all other high-alpha options require the player to work around the differing firing characteristics of alternate guns. You can blast people with a giant alpha of MRMs and SNPPCs, if you want, but you have to juggle the dramatically different firing capabilities of those weapons, as well as alternating weapon groups. A lot of these alternate guns have dramatically shorter ranges than even an ERML, to boot.

Yeah, I wish there was better synergy between weapons. I've disliked the slow velocities of MWO because it exacerbated this issue way more than it was present in MW4 (where the slowest direct file projectiles were 2000m/s and the fastest being close to 4000m/s). Lock-ons in particular are problematic because of their mechanics unfortunately. Convergence was also less problematic since high velocities meant there was less room for error with leading and compensating for odd weapon positioning (which is also plus for lasers/hitscan).

[pbiggz]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 21 January 2025 - 12:13 PM, said:

Yeah, I wish there was better synergy between weapons. I've disliked the slow velocities of MWO because it exacerbated this issue way more than it was present in MW4 (where the slowest direct file projectiles were 2000m/s and the fastest being close to 4000m/s). Lock-ons in particular are problematic because of their mechanics unfortunately. Convergence was also less problematic since high velocities meant there was less room for error with leading and compensating for odd weapon positioning (which is also plus for lasers/hitscan).

Isn't everything in Mechwarrior 4 (other than missiles) hitscan? Maybe PPCs weren't. I cant recall. I know for sure autocannons and machine guns were.

[LordNothing]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 20 January 2025 - 10:04 PM, said:

Those have definitely helped (well less so LACs/PACs) which is part of the reason those were all added, that said lasers + MGs is very much a potent part of the meta partially because of that low tonnage investment (well and MGs to help supplement your otherwise crap DPS). That's probably the biggest limitation for most of those weapons you mentioned is that they still eat up a lot of tonnage (which means you might be a bit on the slow side).

the lacs/pacs do need work, they are in fine when boated territory, and you can cram more firepower into more lights now. i think id have made them more bursty, hotter, and with lower gh threshold but same or slightly better dps. this makes them more suited to running a couple on a light mech, but not 6+ elsewhere.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

pbiggz, on 21 January 2025 - 12:24 PM, said:

Isn't everything in Mechwarrior 4 (other than missiles) hitscan? Maybe PPCs weren't. I cant recall. I know for sure autocannons and machine guns were.

Autocannons, Gauss, MGs, and PPCs were not hitscan, they have a velocity attached to them (AC20s were 2000m/s compared to ERPPC's 3750m/s for example or Gauss at 2800m/s). Not sure why this misconception is prevalent but it's not true. You can especially tell when you start trying to shoot with 56k back in the day because lagshooting with lasers vs any other projectile was a very different experience.

Unfortunately this is probably one of many misconceptions about MW4 as well as I argued with some fool on the cauldron discord because they swore up and down MW4 didn't have a distinction between armor and structure in that game despite clear signs it did.

Void Angel, on 20 January 2025 - 11:51 PM, said:

High alphas also tend toward energy weapons because heat is those weapons' primary balancing mechanism. Becausee of that, it's possible to create builds that defer heat dissipation in favor of alpha firepower - all you really need is the heat capacity to fire once, then sit in cover. All you need is the minimal cooling to not be too vulnerable in the mean time (this is why so many Clan partisans just howled when their DHS got nerfed a while back.) It's the poor man's poptart strategy.

This is why I think the game kind of needs to be redesigned from the ground up, I find the dynamic of limiting mechs to ballistic/missile/energy when they aren't even balanced respective of the above fact to be backwards. Stuff like APGs, Magshots, LPPCs, and MGs kind of band-aid that but IMO are exactly that, a band-aid to a larger issue.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 21 January 2025 - 02:40 PM.

[Void Angel]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 21 January 2025 - 02:35 PM, said:

This is why I think the game kind of needs to be redesigned from the ground up, I find the dynamic of limiting mechs to ballistic/missile/energy when they aren't even balanced respective of the above fact to be backwards. Stuff like APGs, Magshots, LPPCs, and MGs kind of band-aid that but IMO are exactly that, a band-aid to a larger issue.

Hmm... yeah, probably. Certainly some systems could do with an overhaul - they needed a board game designer for Faction Warfare. LRMs come to mind, and I think slowing down overall rate of fire somewhat might open up more builds and reduce the value of boating, for example. Hardpoint sizing is an interesting rebalance option, though it could be very complicated, and provides a method for differentiating chassis other than quirks. The overall feel of the game is pretty good, though; I wouldn't want to deviate too much from how the game plays - even some of the people making videos criticizing it like how combat actually works out.

On the other hand, there's a lot of stuff that could use improvement, and not just in balance per se. If I'm seeing explosions all over my field of view from getting shot with an AC/2, it should be when, and only when, I'm getting hit in the fracking cockpit. I also don't really feel the scale of the machines, for some reason - the 'mechs I'm piloting in both MW:5 offerings feel bigger, somehow. And while some balance issues are essentially an artifact of genre conceits - notably core 'mech customization/design factors - others reflect a specific path taken as the game developed organically.

In an ideal world, we'd get a completely new game by now anyway, with an up-to-date engine and rebuilt from the ground up. All video games have a shelf-life, particularly the online ones. But alas, we're a niche market, and the video game economy seems to be in a downturn.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Void Angel, on 21 January 2025 - 05:20 PM, said:

The overall feel of the game is pretty good, though; I wouldn't want to deviate too much from how the game plays - even some of the people making videos criticizing it like how combat actually works out.

Oh definitely, I think that's part of the reason MWO has lasted this long is because the core gameplay feels good, it didn't take too much to go from MW4 to MWO when I initially got access to closed beta, and that's a good thing. Once you start getting into finer details though MWO as a whole felt like a step back from MW4 whether it be lock-on mechanics, monetization, UX, mechlab, variant bloat, etc.

[Void Angel]

I can't easily compare it to MW4; I never played that in multiplayer, so I'd pretty much plumbed it out for my entertainment by the time I even heard of MWO - and then lost track of it until it was too late to do the Founders thing. But there are some aspects of MW5 that I find to be superior to MWO, most notably the slower pace of combat, and the feeling of scale in the 'mechs. Your 'mech just feels bigger somehow, and the slower weapon cycling means that you can effectively use and aim multiple weapon types more easily.

I'd really like to see a sequel with a better engine and updated lessons learned - though I don't see that happening until all the developers start feeling confident in the market again.