27 replies to this topic

[a 5 year old with an Uzi]

1453 R, on 14 April 2025 - 05:27 AM, said:

There's a reason the only 3+ AMS 'Mech in common use is the COR-7A. A 'Mech that cannot effectively deliver violence to the enemy is a 'Mech that is a liability to the team. No amount of NARC hits or AMA coverage or whatever else is worth sacrificing an entire 'Mech's worth of combat strength for.

That doesn't mean you can't do those things. Far from it! But it DOES mean you have to be able to fight as well as a 'Mech without them, for the most part. You still have to be able to aggress the enemy and win gunfights. If you cannot, you are dead weight. Simply imagine how annoyed the team would be if your effectively unarmed AMS boat is the final 'Mech alive on the team versus a single damaged enemy you could have killed and clutched out, if you had more than a pointlessly token offensive armament. That should cure the desire to play a passive "support" game.

Remember. The Victor is, canonically, classified as a Support 'Mech. It supports its allies by jumping into the fray and blowing holes in the enemy with its giant autocannon. Support your team like a Victor, not like an unarmed quad AMS Piranha.

I remember being able to post okay numbers with So8 KFX-C 3AMS with HLL/ERML/LMG or LPL/ERML but I haven't played that in a while (so probably not long after exiting cadet phase). It's not optimized but if you want to support and smack things the quirks help a bit I guess. If I could get Hero pods for the Energy STs... 6 ERML idiotstick simple with the ECM and AMS, that would probably work.

Edited by a 5 year old with an Uzi, 14 April 2025 - 02:06 PM.

[1453 R]

About the best you can realistically do on a KFX-C is a Kentucky Chicken Fryer. Triple solid AMS with a single ton of ammo, which is sufficient for the job if you're actively turning it off when not needed. Five cERML, four LMG with two tons of ammo, and a pair of jumpy-jets. It's...adequate, ish. Does semi-decent cERML midrange skirmishing, which is what you want for a 'Mech designed to stick with the herd. You could outfit it with APG and SPL if you want to do the thing where you ward off enemy light 'Mechs while covering the fatties with AMS, but then you have to find an extra half-ton, and also you're dramatically inferior at that job when compared to an ADR-W or similar massed APG spammist.

It's not the worst use of a Cute Fox, but the Cute Fox isn't an especially great 'Mech to start with. Killing two and a half tons minimum on triple AMS plus ammo is a fairly steep price on a thirty-ton light compared to quad AMS on a 95-ton assault. The Cute Fox does have the benefit of also bringing ECM, which ain't nothing, but the 'Mech is still rather anemic for its weight and mobility.

The PIR-A, on the other hand, is unsalvageable. The absolute best I can do while retaining all four AMS systems would be something like this donkey, which is disastrously slow for a Doomfish and also pretty lightly armed. 3x HSL and eight LMG is, again, adequate-ish, but it's a shorter range profile on a dramatically more fragile 'Mech, it does not offer ECM coverage, and at that speed you're basically a free kill the moment anything decides they're done with your jank. Less Donkey here is vaguely better in that it still moves Actual Light 'Mech speeds, but you simply cannot get all four AMS systems in there with adequate ammo. Dropping two kinetic AMS and their ton of ammo for a LAMS at least keeps you in the game, and the spare ton goes into the engine. Even this feels anemic and bad, and given that the entire point of the PIR-A is "IT'S THE AMS ONE", it really feels egregious. Also feels like a double AMS ammo quirk wouldn't go amiss, though even then you'd mostly just have the same dogwater armament with more uptime on the AMS.

A much better idea is to use the profusion of 'Mechs out there capable of running double AMS alongside actual-for-real armaments and then overclock them. Yes yes, all the triple and quadruple AMS 'mechs are running AMS Overload too, but that's honestly overkill against all but the densest missile rain. remember, the point isn't to turn enemy missiles off altogether while you sit behind a rock and cower. The point is to blunt the enemy missiles while you're moving up to engage and eliminate the enemy missile platforms, and paired Overloaded AMS does that just fine while being available on a variety of platforms capable of playing pretty aggressively. I quite like Lacerator for it myself, but there's a number of non-Heroes that also feature two AMS hardpoints and the ability to mount a Real Boy armament.

Remember: the goal isn't to run the enemy missile spammer dry. The goal is to make the enemy missile spammer dead. You do that by shooting him with bullets; your AMS systems are only there to make sure you get the chance.

[Feezou]

AMS isn't even ever really worth it. Lockon missiles are the weakest weapons in the game, so hard countering them specifically isn't doing much. You would be better off taking a piranha with more guns and killing the enemy team. The only metric that really matters in this game is how quickly you can kill the enemy team.

[W4R GOD]

The best support mech is the one that does damage and kills things that shoot back. It would be awesome if it mattered but unfortunately it rarely does.

[Void Angel]

Feezou, on 14 April 2025 - 04:52 PM, said:

AMS isn't even ever really worth it. Lockon missiles are the weakest weapons in the game, so hard countering them specifically isn't doing much. You would be better off taking a piranha with more guns and killing the enemy team. The only metric that really matters in this game is how quickly you can kill the enemy team.

Point of order: AMS does not hard-counter missiles, really. It's a stackable soft-counter, so depending on how much incoming fire you have compared to how many AMS systems you can stack, it can effectively hard-counter, but that's not how you should think of the system.

Rather, AMS is damage reduction. I remember doing the math a long time ago (so it's outdated) but I recall an ams system amounting to about a 12% or so damage reduction against a typical LRM boat at the time. This was before ATMs, TBMs, hardpoint inflation, and a bunch of other changes for balance - heck, it was before there even was a Heat Scale Penalty system. But whatever the math is now (different for each system,) that's what AMS does: damage reduction.

Is it worth it? Ehh, it depends. Depending on your server, time of day, tier, your own skill set, and just the general trend of things, you might see enough incoming LRM fire in quick play to make it worth your while - or it may simply be better for you to grab a little more cooling, ammo, or speed, and run (haha) with that.

Consider the opportunity costs of the tonnage, and balance that against how much you're actually using AMS throughout the day.

[Jon Gotham]

Feezou, on 14 April 2025 - 04:52 PM, said:

AMS isn't even ever really worth it. Lockon missiles are the weakest weapons in the game, so hard countering them specifically isn't doing much. You would be better off taking a piranha with more guns and killing the enemy team. The only metric that really matters in this game is how quickly you can kill the enemy team.

It's worth it if your goal is to frustrate lock on weapon users out of sheer spite-which i am guilty of on occasion.

[simon1812]

I would think not being destroyed by a Lrmer rain was enough of an incentive, 've seen it though, a whole team with AMS just eat away any LRM attack. so yeah they are worth it.

Edited by simon1812, 15 April 2025 - 07:46 AM.

[sneed IIC]

The best support you can do is this game is via damage. You can support your heavies by fending off harass, or you can force opposing heavies to reposition by plinking at them from odd angles.

AMS is nice and all, but standing behind a wall is even better against LRMs

Edited by sneed IIC, 16 April 2025 - 01:05 AM.