32 replies to this topic

[1Exitar1]

I just played a match where I was dueling a Spider with light PPCs. I was in a Viper Scaleshot with SRMs. I was matching him jump for jump and my shots were going right through him. I watched them go through his mech, come out the other side and continue on until they exploded. The only time I got hits on him was when he was on the ground,

This is not the first time I have heard of this or seen this. I know it has been brought to PGIs attention. Now fix it.

[GreyNovember]

I was in that match.

It's velocity being slightly delayed reflection on your screen vs what the server thinks it's velocity, and thus position is, coupled with your travel time and spread weapon, will likely result in you not hitting very much.

Stop doing that.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Also, if you aren't recording, then talking about it on the forums really isn't going to do much of anything. Even then, there's no engineers on MWO, expecting it to be fixed is a fool's crusade

[Saved By The Bell]

Yes, Its animation bug. I usually miss jumping lights with PPC and even snubs. Then I realized, that I need to shoot them on ground.

Edited by Saved By The Bell, 26 May 2025 - 10:19 PM.

[Ttly]

Could just be your usual "armpitting" where the shots goes under the arms since people can't turn on thermals to see the actual part of the target, and aim for central mass if they're not confident in hitting anything else.

I mean hey, I managed to hit a jumping Spider at 700m once with a gauss, so it's not like it's entirely impossible to hit.

Edited by Ttly, 26 May 2025 - 10:21 PM.

[Meep Meep]

JJ fluttering and twisting games the servers 30hz tick rate and the hitreg gets screwy. Ever notice how the guds will jj and twist when taking fire? Now you know why and its more than just spreading damage. It's nullifying it.

[Void Angel]

Only 30hz? Was that normal at the time?

I mean, that's horrible for a monitor response rate, but I really don't know about server rates.

[Meep Meep]

Void Angel, on 26 May 2025 - 10:31 PM, said:

Only 30hz? Was that normal at the time?

I mean, that's horrible for a monitor response rate, but I really don't know about server rates.

It means it exchanges data with any connected clients 30 times per second and updates the game state at the same rate. This is why there is a plethora of predictive code and as long as mech speed and weapon velocity stay within a certain range its fine. However power creep on velocity and speed over the years is pushing this to the limits. Plus hitreg on twisting jj mechs has always been dodgy hence why you see it done even now.

[Void Angel]

Meep Meep, on 27 May 2025 - 01:17 AM, said:

It means it exchanges data with any connected clients 30 times per second and updates the game state at the same rate. This is why there is a plethora of predictive code and as long as mech speed and weapon velocity stay within a certain range its fine. However power creep on velocity and speed over the years is pushing this to the limits. Plus hitreg on twisting jj mechs has always been dodgy hence why you see it done even now.

I know what it means. =] I just don't know if 30hz was state of the industry at the time, and how it compares now.

[Meep Meep]

30hz is common for games like dota but most shooters use 60 up to 128 for the much better accuracy on fast paced action. However some shooters like apex and warzone use 20. This isn't a particularly fast paced game especially at launch so 30 works fine for the most part until as mentioned power creep on speed and velocity started to bump up against the limits.

[Kamiko Kross]

GreyNovember, on 26 May 2025 - 05:34 PM, said:

I was in that match.

It's velocity being slightly delayed reflection on your screen vs what the server thinks it's velocity, and thus position is, coupled with your travel time and spread weapon, will likely result in you not hitting very much.

Stop doing that.

Well, you could advise him on how to compensate for that? If the enemy mech's position on screen isn't accurate to where it actually is, any ideas on how to help the guy improve?
"stop doing that" is not helpful......

[GreyNovember]

Kamiko Kross, on 27 May 2025 - 05:10 AM, said:

Well, you could advise him on how to compensate for that? If the enemy mech's position on screen isn't accurate to where it actually is, any ideas on how to help the guy improve?
"stop doing that" is not helpful......

The advice is to not shoot when you're unlikely to hit + And then raise a stink because your unlikely shot failed. Don't go to a stranger's BBQ expecting to be accommodated as a vegetarian.

The mech is in a temporary state of high evasion. Wait for it to eventually drop from the sky before you try to hit it with a weapon that is inherently inaccurate, while riding a mech that is presumably also running and twisting to keep track of the spider.

It'd be best if he also did not try to engage the spider after running directly into a crowd of 3-4 mechs waiting in a corner of Grim Plexus that were supporting it, staying in range of those mechs, and getting Lurmed to death in his Viper. The lack of stress from that situation would greatly assist and reduce the factors that contribute to failing to hit the target.

Edited by GreyNovember, 27 May 2025 - 06:54 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Meep Meep, on 27 May 2025 - 01:17 AM, said:

It means it exchanges data with any connected clients 30 times per second and updates the game state at the same rate. This is why there is a plethora of predictive code and as long as mech speed and weapon velocity stay within a certain range its fine. However power creep on velocity and speed over the years is pushing this to the limits. Plus hitreg on twisting jj mechs has always been dodgy hence why you see it done even now.

You're conflating some things. MW4 had way faster velocities on average (2000m/s was the slowest, with up to 3750m/s vanilla) and hit detection worked fine as long as you knew how to lag shoot. It just matters on collision detection techniques and ensuring that client and server are synced as much as possible to ensure responsiveness. This is why CS2 mostly stayed 64 instead of 128 because they added subtick which is very similar to HSR (in that it is latency compensation). Latency compensation will never be perfect which is why you see some deviances in it (because it's trying to hit a moving target effectively), and slower/smaller projectiles will feel it the most because the issue isn't hit detection, it's netcode related. i've noticed myself having to lag shoot with lasers because HSR isn't compensating well enough in one direction (either it's overcompensating for my latency or not compensating enough).

tl;dr server/client netcode is a distributed system and that stuff is hard to do "right" and is likely to blame for a lot of the wonkiness of hit registration in this game. That and interpolation, interpolation can also be fun depending on the amount of time you are trying to interpolate

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 27 May 2025 - 08:03 AM.

[GreyNovember]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 27 May 2025 - 07:58 AM, said:

That and interpolation, interpolation can also be fun depending on the amount of time you are trying to interpolate

This was a lovely thing to try and figure out when making a system that used preset animations, in a game where people could cancel out of said animations and rapidly reposition, in a P2P environment, based in a third world country where your internet connection could be at best described as "spotty".

How far do we look ahead into the future, how often do we update, and how drastic of a change can the variables make between checks?

In a perfect world we'd be brute forcing it with infinite power and almost zero latency to "Fix" it, as is commonly said.

[Meep Meep]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 27 May 2025 - 07:58 AM, said:

You're conflating some things. MW4 had way faster velocities on average (2000m/s was the slowest, with up to 3750m/s vanilla) and hit detection worked fine as long as you knew how to lag shoot. It just matters on collision detection techniques and ensuring that client and server are synced as much as possible to ensure responsiveness. This is why CS2 mostly stayed 64 instead of 128 because they added subtick which is very similar to HSR (in that it is latency compensation). Latency compensation will never be perfect which is why you see some deviances in it (because it's trying to hit a moving target effectively), and slower/smaller projectiles will feel it the most because the issue isn't hit detection, it's netcode related. i've noticed myself having to lag shoot with lasers because HSR isn't compensating well enough in one direction (either it's overcompensating for my latency or not compensating enough).

tl;dr server/client netcode is a distributed system and that stuff is hard to do "right" and is likely to blame for a lot of the wonkiness of hit registration in this game. That and interpolation, interpolation can also be fun depending on the amount of time you are trying to interpolate

But do the numbers they show us actually relate to their real in game velocities as rendered in the two games? Mw4 was on an entirely different engine(MUNGA) and not this cryengine spaghetti monster of hacked code and bandaids to wrestle it to do what they wanted it to do. Hitreg has been an issue since beta and they knew even back then that too much velocity or speed would start to break things.

[LordNothing]

when using ppcs know that the trail has no hit box. only the projectile at the head of it. if you see a trail passing through a mech, that does not mean that the projectile passed through the mech. the mech could have moved into the trail after the ppc had passed and it would look like it phased through, when in fact it was a miss.

[LordNothing]

Meep Meep, on 27 May 2025 - 12:03 PM, said:

But do the numbers they show us actually relate to their real in game velocities as rendered in the two games? Mw4 was on an entirely different engine(MUNGA) and not this cryengine spaghetti monster of hacked code and bandaids to wrestle it to do what they wanted it to do. Hitreg has been an issue since beta and they knew even back then that too much velocity or speed would start to break things.

youve never been under the hood have you? all game engines are full of spaghetti code, its the nature of the beast. i remember when they opened the freespace engine, it was full of gotos. every one of them was a necessary optimization to get out of a loop in a hurry to do something critical elsewhere. single threaded engines were fun.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LordNothing, on 27 May 2025 - 01:08 PM, said:

youve never been under the hood have you? all software are full of spaghetti code

FTFY

Meep Meep, on 27 May 2025 - 12:03 PM, said:

Hitreg has been an issue since beta and they knew even back then that too much velocity or speed would start to break things.

HSR allowed poptarts to be a thing because you no longer needed to lag shoot significantly to reliably use them vs lasers. Velocity can be an issue depending on the interpolation of the hit detection but you would also see that issue in training grounds and academy (if you cap FPS to 30 that is). I'd hazard a guess the issue is just netcode and having to deal with state (like client/server desync).

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 27 May 2025 - 05:44 PM.

[Meep Meep]

Training grounds and academy are not connected to the server though and the simulation isn't the same. To ensure you get the right results you have to form a private lobby and test there. Easy enough if you have a second pc to load up an alt.

LordNothing, on 27 May 2025 - 01:08 PM, said:

youve never been under the hood have you? all game engines are full of spaghetti code, its the nature of the beast. i remember when they opened the freespace engine, it was full of gotos. every one of them was a necessary optimization to get out of a loop in a hurry to do something critical elsewhere. single threaded engines were fun.

Just saying that this game has an extra cheese layer of spaghetti and the cryengine base they used wasn't even fully patched. The devs did wonders though and the game mostly works like it should. Mostly..

[MrMadguy]

It has been this way right from beginning. Don't waste your ammo/heat. Not sure about broken hitregs. May be it adds to this problem. But problem is caused by broken convergence. Leading doesn't work properly, when there is no ground behind your target. This mechanic is way too complicated, that causes lots of confusion, such as players unloading full alpha, seeing that it has been registered (crosshair flashing), but not seeing any damage registered on paper doll. There is easy fix for it, that would solve many other problems, like partial damage to Lights circling around you. Tie convergence to selected target, not to where crosshair points to. As simple, as that.