49 replies to this topic

[l33tworks]

I just don't see them being anywhere near a threat like they used to be. They get mowed down easier than pretty much any other mech in the game. I even watch steamers like TTB Sean Lang, regular call out "dire wolf" like it means something, probably still remembering the days when clans launched when they did mean something, only for the dire wolf to die within seconds hardly getting much damage out and being one of the least performing mechs at the end .

It simply has not kept up. From what I gather Its been constant nerfs since launch, while the other mechs especially IS powerhouses have seen mostly buffs. Even executioner and gargoyle got buffs. An adder warthog is better these days.

The only time I see Dires perform half decently is when sit on the side of the map camping usually with LL or with hags and their team is doing well.

Thoughts?

EDIT:
I actually didn't know about access to the stats to be honest, I admit and stand corrected they perform better than I thought, even though my initial post was in relation to how they perform today vs when they launched. I have probably noticed a decline in how hard they are to play well in due to the clan weapon and DHS changes and the buffs to other chassis and IS buffs in general.

Edited by l33tworks, 30 July 2025 - 12:53 AM.

[Ttly]

The DWF-C (ECM+1JJ CTpod) with mixpod builds can get like 6AC5 or 8AC2 and with slightly more health than a Bane, which makes it still attractive (and very obnoxious to play against) for your usual sniperslop assault mains.

But yeah, hardly anyone runs it any other way.
The Prime could probably use more armor quirks and agility (maybe even more UAC quirks) because low arm mounts, and strong heat quirks isn't really that great on its own on a bad hitbox chassis.
DWF-A is okay-ish I guess, because eHSL+1 is good, but also shares the low arm mount issue.
The other variants are pretty whatever to bad. At least the Trial DWF-B is usably decent for anyone who wants to try out the hardhitting assault sniper playstyle.

Anyway it pretty much has the same issue as Timber Wolf (that everyone always runs with the ECM Laservomit mixpod build) where Cauldron gave up on balancing it because "it already has one/two decent-good build" you ask me.

Edited by Ttly, 29 July 2025 - 02:29 AM.

[martian]

l33tworks, on 28 July 2025 - 11:16 PM, said:

I just don't see them being anywhere near a threat like they used to be. They get mowed down easier than pretty much any other mech in the game. I even watch steamers like TTB Sean Lang, regular call out "dire wolf" like it means something, probably still remembering the days when clans launched when they did mean something, only for the dire wolf to die within seconds hardly getting much damage out and being one of the least performing mechs at the end . I guess these days they call it out as its an easy kill.

Even the supposed firepower is nothing great these days with all the power creep and quirks on other mechs, its just too choked with the heat scale and clan heat nerfs for it to be any better than carrying less weapons with quirks on a good fast mech and waiting for the cooldown to reset, than boating more weapons which is the only direwolf strategy.

It simply has not kept up. From what I gather Its been constant nerfs since launch, while the other mechs especially IS powerhouses have seen mostly buffs. Even executioner and gargoyle got buffs. An adder warthog is better these days.

The only time I see Dires perform half decently is when sit on the side of the map camping usually with LL or with hags and their team is doing well.

Thoughts?

A few facts, if you do not mind ...

1) Win/Loss ratio
The average Win/Loss ratio of the assault class is 1,02. The Dire Wolf with its Win/Loss ratio of 1,00 sits very very slightly under the average, but this is nothing significant, since the assault class has overperformers with 1,18 or 1,17, and underperformers with 0,92 or 0,95. Thus, there is nothing wrong with the Dire Wolf.

2) Kill/Death ratio
The average Kill/Death ratio of the assault class is 1,07. The Dire Wolf has Kill/Death ratio of 1,07 too. It is neither overperforning nor underperforming. Thus, there is nothing wrong with the Dire Wolf.

3) Average Match Score
The average Match Score of the assault class is 263,78. The Dire Wolf with its average Match Score of 269,13 is actually above the average of its weight class. It is neither overperforning massively nor underperforming. Thus, there is nothing wrong with the Dire Wolf.

l33tworks, on 28 July 2025 - 11:16 PM, said:

I just don't see them being anywhere near a threat like they used to be.

It is also not 2014.

The power creep in MWO has been real, but the numbers show that the Dire Wolf is not as bad as you think.

[nanashi0110]

That square wolf is still a threat.

If anything has changed, it's that there are now better hardpoint monsters.

[Magic Pain Glove]

"Hardly anyone runs it" hmmm , looks over at the publicly available document.

Heh , would you look at that ....

Its the 2nd most played mech in the game right after the timberwolf.
7th place when it comes to average damage dealt across all tiers.

[l33tworks]

martian, on 29 July 2025 - 04:08 AM, said:

A few facts, if you do not mind ...

1) Win/Loss ratio
The average Win/Loss ratio of the assault class is 1,02. The Dire Wolf with its Win/Loss ratio of 1,00 sits very very slightly under the average

2) Kill/Death ratio
The average Kill/Death ratio of the assault class is 1,07. The Dire Wolf has Kill/Death ratio of 1,07 too. It is neither overperforning nor underperforming.

3) Average Match Score
The average Match Score of the assault class is 263,78. The Dire Wolf with its average Match Score of 269,13 is actually above the average of its weight class. It is neither overperforning massively nor underperforming.

Magic Pain Glove, on 29 July 2025 - 07:09 AM, said:

Its the 2nd most played mech in the game right after the timberwolf.
7th place when it comes to average damage dealt across all tiers.

lol ok ok, look I understand its still a decent mech, never said it wasn't . The thread is that it is one of the most "fallen" from what it once was, year after year. Its just been downhill. And it can get frustrating to play at times especially. Most of the time these days I find myself running a faster more nimble mech or a more quirked IS mech.

But that said, words like "average" ,"very very slightly under or over the average" and "7", these should be not used to describe the direwolf.

Edited by l33tworks, 29 July 2025 - 07:55 AM.

[Vonbach]

The Dire Whale? It was never that much of a threat to begin with. I used to hunt them with my twin ppc urbie.

[martian]

l33tworks, on 29 July 2025 - 07:54 AM, said:

lol ok ok, look I understand its still a decent mech, never said it wasn't . The thread is that it is one of the most "fallen" from what it once was, year after year. Its just been downhill. And it can get frustrating to play at times especially. Most of the time these days I find myself running a faster more nimble mech or a more quirked IS mech.

But that said, words like "average" ,"very very slightly under or over the average" and "7", these should be not used to describe the direwolf.

The actual timeline:

• 2014 - Dire Wolf debuts in MechWarrior Online as one of the strongest assault-class 'Mechs in the game, if not the strongest one. And it is an OmniMech with switchable OmniPods, i.e. hardpoints ...
  
• 2015 - Dire Wolf gets the alternate configuration "S". From this time forward, Dire Wolf can be equipped with podded jump jets. It also means that extra OmniPods with diverse hardpoints are available. Clan players rejoice.
  
• 2015 - Dire Wolf gets the alternate configuration "W". That Dire Wolf can be equipped with a pair of energy weapons in its Center torso. Additional OmniPods with diverse hardpoints available. Clan players rejoice again.
  
• 2016 - Dire Wolf Hero 'Mech "Ultraviolet" added. If you combine its OmniPods with other OmniPods, you can build one of the strongest ballistic boats in the game. Clan players rejoice again.
  
• 2021 - Dire Wolf gets the alternate configuration "C". It comes with the Clan ECM suite. Clan players rejoice again.

Are you really sure with your claims that [Dire Wolf] "it is one of the most "fallen" from what it once was, year after year. Its just been downhill." and that [Dire Wolf] "It simply has not kept up."? Because I would say that that the gradual process of adding jump jets, extra OmniPods / hardpoints, and ECM counts as a pretty significant boost of the Dire Wolf's capabilities.

Seeing all those aforementioned Dire Wolf improvements, I would really not say that "Its been constant nerfs since launch". Quite on the contrary, all those things have buffed Dire Wolf pretty strongly since launch.

[Navid A1]

l33tworks, on 29 July 2025 - 07:54 AM, said:

lol ok ok, look I understand its still a decent mech, never said it wasn't . The thread is that it is one of the most "fallen" from what it once was, year after year. Its just been downhill. And it can get frustrating to play at times especially. Most of the time these days I find myself running a faster more nimble mech or a more quirked IS mech.

But that said, words like "average" ,"very very slightly under or over the average" and "7", these should be not used to describe the direwolf.

Here is a comparison between the Dire Wolf and Stone Rhino in the past two years in quick play (Data provided by PGI).
Dire Wolf has been one of the most consistent performers in quick play for a long time.
And will be one in future.

There are a lot of other mechs that have "Fallen" much harder than Dire Wolf

Edited by Navid A1, 29 July 2025 - 11:52 AM.

[Ttly]

Magic Pain Glove, on 29 July 2025 - 07:09 AM, said:

-snip-

Oooh, and there's the short reading attention span.

What's next, people actually play the PPC, UAC, and LRM+Laser Timber Wolves? No, they're only playing either Howl (which isn't an omni TBR) or the ECM Laservomit. Likewise with the DWF with AC5 or AC2 boats, just without ECM outside the C. At most there's the 8ERLLchainfire boat too I guess.
Face it, it's just like saying the WHM-IIC is good because HAG80 Maul when it's doing pretty badly outside of it.

Edited by Ttly, 29 July 2025 - 12:46 PM.

[Magic Pain Glove]

Not really a good comparison . Dire has plenty of decent QP builds and its an omni mech so you can sort of build a similar build on a single variant ( with chosen CT omnipod equipment / quirks you prefer) . And it does have a decent variety of builds that one can run on it and perform well in QP.

Regarding what people run , outside of high tiers which are in the minority in terms of overall player population people run all sort of things . And even in T1 like I said above you have plenty of builds to chose from.

Non maul WHM IIC variants can be tricky to play that is true . But the title of this post is not "Is There Any Other Mech That Has Fallen More Than The Warhammer IIC?" and even that would be a bit questionable.

[Ttly]

Magic Pain Glove, on 29 July 2025 - 12:49 PM, said:

Not really a good comparison . Dire has plenty of decent QP builds and its an omni mech so you can sort of build a similar build on a single variant ( with chosen CT omnipod equipment / quirks you prefer) . And it does have a decent variety of builds that one can run on it and perform well in QP.

"Plenty of decent builds", I doubt more than the 3-4 best ones (or just a variation of it with ECM/JJ) actually gets used.
The Bane also exists for cbucks now and does most of them even if it comes with its own tradeoffs (less hitpoints, but higher mounts, noJJs) nearly just as well.

Magic Pain Glove, on 29 July 2025 - 12:49 PM, said:

Regarding what people run , outside of high tiers which are in the minority in terms of overall player population people run all sort of things . And even in T1 like I said above you have plenty of builds to chose from.

And as some people here would say, they're self-sabotaging themselves and their team for running "all sorts of things".
"If only they would run only the best build/variants and stop NASCARing so I can tell them to go to X position while I'm at Y so I can use them as meatshield to snipe/damage farm the enemy at A and B!" is also a rather common sentiment/unsaid passive aggressive thought regarding them instead of making more viable (in a more serious environment) variants that happens to coincide with what they play.
Here comes another high mount 50 pinpoint damage vehicle, instead of buffing DPS builds after all.

Magic Pain Glove, on 29 July 2025 - 12:49 PM, said:

Non maul WHM IIC variants can be tricky to play that is true . But the title of this post is not "Is There Any Other Mech That Has Fallen More Than The Warhammer IIC?" and even that would be a bit questionable.

It's more a statement that hardly anyone plays them seriously "outside of the best variant/build" because of how bad/neglected balance-wise they are.

[1453 R]

The Dire Whale is still the Dire Whale. It's still fifty tons of high-octane Clan guns trundling across the map at Slow, and generally if you wind up in front of it you're not coming out the other side unless it's already on the edge of death.

The only thing that's different is that Stone Rhinos, Banes, and other hundred-ton Clan deathmonsters now also exist to compete with it directly, and the Clans are closer to balanced against the Sphere than they were when the Clans dropped. People have also had most of a decade to figure out how to counterplay against the Whale, and commensurately most other Clan hundred-ton gunwagons.

The machine is still perfectly capable. It's simply not the only example of its type anymore.

[BlueDevilspawn]

Not all meta builds require shifting omnipods around. There are plenty of Dire sets of 8 like Prime, A, B (off the top of my head) that were quirked to make those so8s viable and fun in their own way. There are plenty of other so8 on typically recombined chassis that are perfectly viable. Examples include Hellbringer Prime, Ebon Jag A/B. Timby-A/D/S/BH.

What is NOT viable is running a BUILD on those so8 that is reminiscent of tabletop, which is what a lot of the stock builds are from. Expecting that to be somehow meta is not happening in a game that has as much mechlab freedom as MWO. Even if you locked stock builds there would always be a meta, very likely WHK Prime or C as good examples.

So no, do not conflate set of 8 hardpoints with builds. A TON of excellent so8 exist. A TON of crap stock builds exist. That's very distinct.

Ttly, on 29 July 2025 - 01:19 PM, said:

"Plenty of decent builds", I doubt more than the 3-4 best ones (or just a variation of it with ECM/JJ) actually gets used.
The Bane also exists for cbucks now and does most of them even if it comes with its own tradeoffs (less hitpoints, but higher mounts, noJJs) nearly just as well.


And as some people here would say, they're self-sabotaging themselves and their team for running "all sorts of things".
"If only they would run only the best build/variants and stop NASCARing so I can tell them to go to X position while I'm at Y so I can use them as meatshield to snipe/damage farm the enemy at A and B!" is also a rather common sentiment/unsaid passive aggressive thought regarding them instead of making more viable (in a more serious environment) variants that happens to coincide with what they play.
Here comes another high mount 50 pinpoint damage vehicle, instead of buffing DPS builds after all.


It's more a statement that hardly anyone plays them seriously "outside of the best variant/build" because of how bad/neglected balance-wise they are.

[Void Angel]

I'm always frustrated/amused by that old chestnut: "Oh, well, yeah, there's viable builds, but they're just meta builds, so they don't count." Hand-waving away the successful builds that people are commonly using based on a silly ideology doesn't bolster your opinion as much as you think it does...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ttly, on 29 July 2025 - 12:31 PM, said:

Likewise with the DWF with AC5 or AC2 boats, just without ECM outside the C. At most there's the 8ERLLchainfire boat too I guess.

If you are solely judging the whale by those two builds, then yeah, it's outperformed. Good thing those aren't the best Whale builds. Even the ECM isn't a requirement for a good build. Hell pretty sure the Prime with 6 ERML/2 ERLL/2 Gauss is still a beast of a mech. Then you have better dakka builds that mix AC5s/PAC4s with Plasma/ERPPCs. Or the one that people on these forums like to complain about, ERLL/Gauss spam (which doesn't require ECM to be good, but it helps because spuds are blind).

It's not built for pure dakka, otherwise it would have endo/FF. The only real problem is that pure laser vomit builds don't work well on it because you can't swap to SHS.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 29 July 2025 - 04:09 PM.

[Ttly]

Okay? Are any of you actually going to run them then? Because I sure don't see them.
I'd bet most of you would just complain all day long about the low arm mounts and low agility with the bad hitbox.

It's pretty much like the Osiris/MASC Commando nerf last year, it's a rather arm-chairy approach on calling what's overperforming.

Edited by Ttly, 29 July 2025 - 04:21 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ttly, on 29 July 2025 - 04:15 PM, said:

Okay? Are any of you actually going to run them then? Because I sure don't see them.

Cool? Anecdotal evidence by itself isn't really a salient argument especially when stats say they are one of the most popular mechs.

Ironically, you mentioned the MASC commando, but you wanna know what's one of the rarest non-omnimechs. 3 of the 6 available Commando variants much like the non-MASC Vulcans.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 29 July 2025 - 04:46 PM.

[Ttly]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 29 July 2025 - 04:32 PM, said:

Cool? Anecdotal evidence by itself isn't really a salient argument especially when stats say they are one of the most popular mechs. Ironically, you mentioned the MASC commando, but you wanna know what's one of the rarest non-omnimechs. 3 of the 6 available Commando variants much like the non-MASC Vulcans.

And the Ice Ferret has one variant being even *the* least (on top of performing badly) played vehicle in the game in IFR-B.

Edited by Ttly, 29 July 2025 - 05:55 PM.

[nanashi0110]

Hmmm... . from my perspective in T5, if I play 5 games, there is always a direwolf in 2 or 3 matches.
And usually a dakka...and sometimes an LLboat. I really do see the occasional missile boat... I guess that's the exception.
I think it's more accurate to say that it's stagnating rather than declining. There are more MECH than there used to be, and I don't think the percentage has changed, just that the numbers seem to have decreased a bit.