38 replies to this topic

[Molasses Fatts]

What do we think? i feel like the new changes make them worse overall.

[Ttly]

Bad velocity match so you can't really bind them to the same weapon group as MRMs or RACs unless you're shooting at closer stuff. Also pretty bad heat for being missile RACs.

Oh also 15s (could be less, but then you'd just get the old RL again) worth of shooting on RL20 (even less on the other launchers) and bad damage/ton for how much slot they take.

I do like the idea of being able to cram in an additional weapon at all when you otherwise couldn't at all before though.

Edited by Ttly, 11 December 2025 - 12:05 PM.

[Drenzul]

Ttly, on 11 December 2025 - 06:53 AM, said:

Bad velocity match so you can't really bind them to the same weapon group as MRMs or RACs unless you're shooting at closer stuff. Also pretty bad heat for being missile RACs.

Oh also 13s (could be less, but then you'd just get the old RL again) worth of shooting on RL20 (even less on the other launchers) and bad damage/ton for how much slot they take.

I do like the idea of being able to cram in an additional weapon at all when you otherwise couldn't at all before though.

I think they were primarily designed for light mechs with the lower tonnage, the slot usage isn't so important on lights generally.
Given the low weight I think the heat is a good balance so people can't boat too many with the low tonnage.

[Ttly]

Well if you think about it, SRM2+0.5t bin which weighs like 1.5t as a whole and 2 slot, does use itself up in like 70 seconds for 150 damage.
So 15 seconds for an RL20 to empty its bin of 130 damage is a lot better with its better range on top? It does weigh the same albeit 1 slot larger.

Then you have the RL15 and RL10 having only like 90 and 40 damage on their bins.
I'm having a hard time thinking up where to even cram these things in outside of stuff like LMG FLE-19s (you can take away the half-bin LMG for RL20) frankly.
High hardpoint count+low available tonnage to warrant expending hardpoints on these things over MRMs/SRMs is just a weird combination to look for.

Drenzul, on 11 December 2025 - 08:44 AM, said:

I think they were primarily designed for light mechs with the lower tonnage, the slot usage isn't so important on lights generally.
Given the low weight I think the heat is a good balance so people can't boat too many with the low tonnage.

Their HSL2(3 on RL10) and their stream-fire nature already stops you from boating them by bottlenecking your DPS to 16/24 (8DPS per RL) paired with their velocity mismatch with a decent amount of other weapons.

Having more RLs than that is really just the equivalent of adding ammo bins.
Ammo bins that uses up way too much slots and would need you to use another weapon group to fire them that is.
Unless you're comfortable with toggling weapon groups in the middle of the match to have the second RL batch to be on the same group as the first, or actually could use more than 2 weapon groups like the average player could.

So yeah, I guess there's something like this MAD-4HP too with 5 weapon group setup and STD360.
Or like this with LE360 instead.
Group 1 for the lasers, 2 for 2RL20, 3 for 2nd batch of 2RL20s, 4 for 2RL15, 5 for 3RL10.
So mouse1, mouse2, keyboard keys/mouse side buttons.
Scroll up/down and mouse3 aren't really that great for hold-to-fire instead of tap-to-fire weapons like these.
I guess you could use group 1/2 for laser+RL (tap if you want to use only lasers), and group 6 for laser only too.
There's also chainfire I guess.

Oh wait I'm stupid and the MAD-4HP of all things specifically has RL HSL+2 so you can dump 4RL20 in one weapon group. So you can cut it down to as little as 3-4 weapon groups.
Still, if it were to lose the RL HSL, I guess that's how it would play.

I mean that's like 950ish potential damage that can be dumped in like 60 seconds ignoring heat.
But coming from a stream-fire, low velocity, high spread weapon, that's kind of low?
Meanwhile with non-ghostheat SRM MAD-4HP like this you could do that 1k damage in 50 seconds, but obviously SRMs has a less range, though I would argue that the low velocity makes using the RL farther than SRM range to be pretty challenging too.

Then you also have the Spitfire with 1500 potential damage from the RLs.
Oh there's also the MG+RL (instead of HMG+SRM) Crael which gets to put on LE315 too.

Anyway yeah, the problem is really just either the heat or velocity, bump up (or lower it in the heat's case) either and I suppose it'll be in a lot better place.

Edited by Ttly, 11 December 2025 - 03:38 PM.

[LordNothing]

i completely missed the patch notes. rocket launchers are sane now. cool. im not sure the numbers will hit the mark but those can always be tweaked next patch. will reserve further judgement until i use them myself (goodby t2). i wouldnt mind seeing a clan version so i can have a dumbfire midrange system in that techbase.

i did the pts where they premiered and i knew right away that their only real use was to get cheap kills. i could identify no other practical use. they had some use in solaris, like if you had a missile arm, you could strip the armor off and make sure you fire those first as an exploritory strike to find where the enemy was weak as they would hit everything (same thing you tend to do with mrms in an opening savlo). they added crit power later but that didnt help much. other than cheap spam kills and eq with reloads, i think i only got 2 kills with rockets in the live game and once to leg a 20 tonner after it had already stripped my other weapons, i died but not before making it regret its life choices. the other two i was in a dragon and a grasshopper, these were just rl10s shoved into ct/head hardpoints as an afterthought and a way to use up surplus tonnage.

Edited by LordNothing, 11 December 2025 - 02:43 PM.

[1453 R]

Rocket launchers remain half a ton, one ton, and a ton and a half respectively. The patch notes called them what they're supposed to be - a sub-weapon used to support a pre-existing armament rather than being a one-and-done Splat Meme you build your whole dumb robit around. For 'mechs with missile hardpoints but no tonnage to use them, rockets can be good supplemental weapons. A lot of IS lights are about to become significantly more problematic with a reserve of fast-firing rocket spewers to fall back on. Do they deal a lot of damage all told, no - but they're easy to use and weigh basically nothing. A lot of times it'll be an easy "why not?" Like taking a pistol into your FPS match - if you can, why leave it behind?

[Ttly]

1453 R, on 11 December 2025 - 03:06 PM, said:

Rocket launchers remain half a ton, one ton, and a ton and a half respectively. The patch notes called them what they're supposed to be - a sub-weapon used to support a pre-existing armament rather than being a one-and-done Splat Meme you build your whole dumb robit around. For 'mechs with missile hardpoints but no tonnage to use them, rockets can be good supplemental weapons. A lot of IS lights are about to become significantly more problematic with a reserve of fast-firing rocket spewers to fall back on. Do they deal a lot of damage all told, no - but they're easy to use and weigh basically nothing. A lot of times it'll be an easy "why not?" Like taking a pistol into your FPS match - if you can, why leave it behind?

Well most lights that has missile hardpoints in the first place usually also has missile ammo/various other quirks to make bringing them preferable over these.
But yes, for those without, an RL20/15 is better than cramming in an SRM2+halfbin.

So stuff like COM-1B, Osiris, Panthers I guess.
It's more interesting on mediums and heavies with stuff like the Bushwacker probably finally seeing those missile hardpoints getting used.
Or RL+AC20 Orions moving at 70kph with LE325.

Edited by Ttly, 12 December 2025 - 03:37 AM.

[LordNothing]

i may start putting them in missile hardpoints otherwise left unoccupied. especially for midrange builds. lots of builds i dont have the tonnage for mrms and srms would turn it into a bracket build. also not enough tonnage/space for all the equipment you need for guided options. so a lightweight midrange missile might be useful even with limited ammo.

[Molasses Fatts]

my biggest complaint is how hot they are.

[LordNothing]

i ran the spitfire (+2 hsl) in the testing grounds (my starlink dish is iffy in the current cold snap, so i couldn't do live), 6x rl20s and 8x rl15s + 2 snubs. i spread them out to 3 different fire groups (each with two 20s, and two or three 15s). while they did do considerable damage, sustained fire was impossible due to ghost heat (except the one group that only had two 15s).

rl10s can do 5 at a time. so a build with ten 10s in two groups and four 20s in the third group would not have gh at all. of course that is going to reduce your rocket load a lot. in either config i find im really just using one group at a time for the duration of the ammo. they kind of feel like hot mrms (though mrms are kind of heavy so rls still have their place). this config also gives you space for a couple binary lasers. lgb-oh

if i were to suggest a minor improvement, i think id either up their damage to 1.25-1.5/missile or reduce their spread by about 25%, or some combination of the two (1.2 damage and 15% less spread). i personally would rather have the reduced spread as they kind of scatter wildly at their min range. aiming ct of an atlas at 51m i think i managed to hit every component. the heat i consider a fair trade for their lightness. practical use isnt going to be 14 of them on a spitfire, its going to be a couple of them on a vomit build.

Edited by LordNothing, 12 December 2025 - 05:52 AM.

[nanashi0110]

I basically only use Clan MECHs, so this isn't an exact impression... but I think it's pretty good.
It doesn't have a Ballistic Hardpoint, but it fills the DPS gap for MECHs with Missile Hardpoints,
or it can be adopted as a secondary weapon for Missile MECHs instead of SSRMs... I think it's become a pretty good weapon.
It feels like the firepower is a bit high... but since it's a one-shot weapon, that's probably fine.

My only question is that when multiple parts are equipped with RL, the ammunition from a destroyed RL gets inherited by the other RLs.
As a player, it's appreciated, but considering how RLs are designed, it feels a bit odd.

[Strelok7]

copy pasting from patch thread

PACTH NOTES: "Rocket Launcher Rework ... primary use serving as a griefing one shot weapon and are relatively useless beyond that"

RESPONSE:
That is a highly subjective assumption!!!
.
"griefing one shot" - I saw that maYBe 0.3% of the time. And even then, during some unlimited ammo event...

"useless"? - have you ever seen cored mechs simply evaporate at the end of the round? Just poof, gone.

See, no-no-no,
NOW it BECAME "kind of useless"...
With that hit spread? What real rocket launcher has such a hit spread?! It feels like a drunkard gunner is having an alcoholic withdrawal.

Damage of 1 :-O. WOW. ONE ?? It is like we are lovingly caressing the enemy. Awkward ... ew.

_

Omitting trolling and griefing scenarios; there is a whole game-style and strategy that goes with a smart use of a rocket launcher.

You hardly ever see anyone run a rocket launcher in their toolkit (in my personal observation). Cause it is just too tempting to add extra armor, ammo, bigger weapon, beagle, ams ... anything but a rocket launcher.

So NO, I vote Ctrl-Z on that one.

Just make a new weapon that has a more realistic hit spread. It is a good concept, just needs mods.

Edited by Strelok7, 12 December 2025 - 03:20 PM.

[1453 R]

Strelok7, on 12 December 2025 - 03:08 PM, said:

copy pasting from patch thread

PACTH NOTES: "Rocket Launcher Rework ... primary use serving as a griefing one shot weapon and are relatively useless beyond that"

RESPONSE:
That is a highly subjective assumption!!!

No it isn't. Not only does Piranha have the data on that one, literally everyone else alive can and has confirmed that this is the ONLY use for rockets, as they currently exist, beyond cheesing the extra damage protection from missile bay doors. The nature of the weapon as a one-and-done, high-damage splat burst meant they couldn't ever be used for anything else, really.
.

Strelok7, on 12 December 2025 - 03:08 PM, said:

"griefing one shot" - I saw that maYBe 0.3% of the time. And even then, during some unlimited ammo event...

Unlimited ammo events make rocket griefing infinitely worse, not better.

Strelok7, on 12 December 2025 - 03:08 PM, said:

"useless"? - have you ever seen cored mechs simply evaporate at the end of the round? Just poof, gone.

Griefing at the end of the round isn't really any better than griefing at the beginning of the round.

Strelok7, on 12 December 2025 - 03:08 PM, said:

See, no-no-no,
NOW it BECAME "kind of useless"...
With that hit spread? What real rocket launcher has such a hit spread?! It feels like a drunkard gunner is having an alcoholic withdrawal.

Damage of 1 :-O. WOW. ONE ?? It is like we are lovingly caressing the enemy. Awkward ... ew.

Getting 8DPS from a half-ton weapon system, even if not for very long, begs to differ.

Strelok7, on 12 December 2025 - 03:08 PM, said:

Omitting trolling and griefing scenarios; there is a whole game-style and strategy that goes with a smart use of a rocket launcher.

Rocket launchers should never have existed in MWO in their original form. Even if "used in a smart way", they allow someone to vomit multiple assault 'Mech's worth of alpha in a single blast, which the other player can do very little about. "Delete one sorry jaggoff from the game for free-ninety-nine" sucks as a game mechanic, no matter if it's done as obvious griefing or just dicktrolling somebody who might have had a chance. Even in the tabletop game, rockets are polarizing cringey nonsense.

Strelok7, on 12 December 2025 - 03:08 PM, said:

You hardly ever see anyone run a rocket launcher in their toolkit (in my personal observation). Cause it is just too tempting to add extra armor, ammo, bigger weapon, beagle, ams ... anything but a rocket launcher.

Gee, I wonder if making them more consistent and letting them actually act as semi-worthwhile subweapons instead of Crappy One-Gob Memes might make this less of an issue.......

Strelok7, on 12 December 2025 - 03:08 PM, said:

So NO, I vote Ctrl-Z on that one. Just make a new weapon that has a more realistic hit spread. It is a good concept, just needs mods.

Overruled. Rockets sucked. Now they suck mildly less. Deal w/it.

[Ilostmycactus]

Completing an objective, defeating an enemy player, isn't "griefing". Not to mention that any other high alpha mech can get behind another mech and core it in a single moment. That's not called griefing either. The word shouldn't be thrown around when it has a specific meaning. There are plenty of mechs that might not contribute more to a fight than one defeated enemy, or encourage risky/aggressive play that might not pay off (srm boats etc).

For the Javelin, with the overheat nodes rework, you could alpha the rockets and not die as long as you weren't overridden. Swap one out for an mrm or srm and you even had some sustain.

That said, it was pretty hard to pull off, being mostly reliant on how observant the enemy team was and your own patience.

So, if people want to call old rockets a "meme" build, I think that would be more appropriate, rather than disparaging players who used them.

Edited by Ilostmycactus, 12 December 2025 - 10:44 PM.

[Meep Meep]

The 'griefing' is on your own team after your rocket jav flubs its backstab and is now useless and you are down a mech. Not griefing as in doing the backstab to begin with. All rocket backstab fits were troll and bad for gameplay. Also this is just the first iteration and rockets will be getting additional changes as the data comes in. They learned their lesson with snubs on tossing out stuff overtuned.

[LordNothing]

Ilostmycactus, on 12 December 2025 - 10:42 PM, said:

Completing an objective, defeating an enemy player, isn't "griefing". Not to mention that any other high alpha mech can get behind another mech and core it in a single moment. That's not called griefing either. The word shouldn't be thrown around when it has a specific meaning. There are plenty of mechs that might not contribute more to a fight than one defeated enemy, or encourage risky/aggressive play that might not pay off (srm boats etc).

For the Javelin, with the overheat nodes rework, you could alpha the rockets and not die as long as you weren't overridden. Swap one out for an mrm or srm and you even had some sustain.

That said, it was pretty hard to pull off, being mostly reliant on how observant the enemy team was and your own patience.

So, if people want to call old rockets a "meme" build, I think that would be more appropriate, rather than disparaging players who used them.

they tried to turn it into a late game crit weapon. problem with that was:

1. the rocket launcher had to survive to late game to be useful in that role. in late game people are fighting with partial mechs. it was also kind of a crit bomb waiting to go off in your mech while waiting for an opportunity to use it.

2. the rocket launcher had to actually hit the target. leading targets with projectile weapons usually requires one or two shots to zero in. you get one shot to do it perfectly on the first time. this made it even more situational as you could only use it on a non moving mech.

3. rngesus had to really be on your side. many hits on open structure did not finish the target most of the time, even with a good hit.

the end result is after this change in purpose i have had exactly 3 engagements where rocket launchers actually pulled this off. its harder to pull off than a headshot by at least one order of magnitude. get gud? yea, by not putting this weapon on the mech in the first place. it became a fine example of how to lose in the mechlab.

its not like this problem wasn't forseen by multiple testers way back during the civil war pts. i know the first thing i did was put together a rl boat and one hit an atlas. the suggestion i made looks a lot like this implementation, and i wasnt the only one that made it.

i do agree with the stance that it was not griefing, as it was being used as intended. that is a design problem, not a player problem. the design is a poor fit for a game with no respawn. it leads to unfun outcomes. i think the cauldron has done a good job of removing one hitters from the game, and this was a potential source of them.

Edited by LordNothing, 13 December 2025 - 01:19 AM.

[Meep Meep]

LordNothing, on 13 December 2025 - 01:01 AM, said:

i think the cauldron has done a good job of removing one hitters from the game, and this was a potential source of them.

~turns a gimlet eye towards rails~

There better be some sort of real nerf once it goes out for mc.. Kill the velo and it won't be a huge issue at range like it is now.

[nanashi0110]

After completing a certain LEGEND challenge, I enjoyed using the rocket launcher.
I'm quite positive about this rework.
The previous Rocket Launcher was essentially a one-shot wonder, effectively acting like a component-destruction weapon.
Now it feels more like a missile-based machine gun, allowing you to fire as much as needed whenever you need it, making it much more user-friendly.

If I had one complaint, it's the extremely high ammunition consumption. While it packs a punch, you can run out of ammo quite quickly...

[Khalcruth]

1453 R, on 12 December 2025 - 05:07 PM, said:

Unlimited ammo events make rocket griefing infinitely worse, not better.

Maybe that means the problem is with that kind of event.

In any case, I never found a realistic use for rockets before, and with the change I really don't see a use now. *shrug* No worries, there's plenty of other weapons I like to use.

[Meep Meep]

nanashi0110, on 13 December 2025 - 02:30 PM, said:

If I had one complaint, it's the extremely high ammunition consumption. While it packs a punch, you can run out of ammo quite quickly...

Alas ammo amount is hard coded and if they try to increase it silly things like infinite ammo bugs pop up. Spaghetti code is spaghetti. They can change the damage and rof so that it takes longer to run out but the dps is the same.