17 replies to this topic

[Ttly]

The ones that move around 70-90kph that is.
Most of them only have DPS that are only like 10-15 barring certain exceptions (SRM, RACs, high hardpoint count) that comes with their downsides, and even then there are heavies that are just as fast (i.e Summoner, Linebacker) with just as much DPS (around 15-22) or higher alpha (60-70), and more durability.

There are ones that are appropriately quirked, stuff like Nova-D having 17 to 22 DPS depending on the build range (LB5/10+LRM to LB20+SRM) or the IS Hunchback actually having heavy-level of hitpoints (though still lacking damage of an actual heavy) but then you have stuff like the IS Shadow Hawk generally floating around only 15, not to mention the Scattershot still having negative quirks without even at least ammo quirks to make up for it even if it has no JJ shake.

Seriously, what's up with that? Isn't this like a decade old game? How did no one figured out to bump them up with cooldown and heat quirks at least?
Anything faster usually at least has the excuse of their mobility being enough of an advantage.

I mean hey, you got these things that positions like a heavy or even some fast assaults but just straight up doesn't shoot as hard (because of balance decision) and can't take anywhere as much hits, all costing the team in Quickplay matches (where most of the game is) the same thing, a player slot.

Edited by Ttly, Yesterday, 03:53 PM.

[Drenzul]

I mean you can't stop people from building bad mechs no matter what you do really
There are a few exceptions to that rule but in general yeah, lights/mids that aren't fast enough just tend to die quick. A few can work as pop-tarts however if they have good mounts.

There are certainly more than a few mechs that could use some love to make them viable.

[LordNothing]

i sometimes downgrade my engine so i dont constantly yolo towards the strategic points in the map. the fact that it takes people so much time to leave spawn even in mechs that can break 100kph really disturbs me. like is it std engine week or something? its really depressing when you are in something like a bane and you are the first one to make contact with the enemy while the rest of the team hasn't even left the spawn grid. wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww ffs.

Edited by LordNothing, 17 December 2025 - 09:20 AM.

[Ttly]

Drenzul, on 17 December 2025 - 06:19 AM, said:

I mean you can't stop people from building bad mechs no matter what you do really https://static.mwomercs.com/forums//public/style_emoticons/default/smile.png
There are a few exceptions to that rule but in general yeah, lights/mids that aren't fast enough just tend to die quick. A few can work as pop-tarts however if they have good mounts.

There are certainly more than a few mechs that could use some love to make them viable.

These aren't bad builds, these are just straight up undertuned stuff.
IS Shadow Hawks, Hatchetman, Wolverine, or Griffin, Dervish, and so on barely touches 80-90 for example with only that much damage (in DPS and spread form of damage at that).
Crabs can go 90 at least (and some variants can go LE even), and their hitbox is decent, but still rather anemic damage output, especially the PPC Crab (CRB-27) which also doesn't have JJs like the Nova-A does which in turn also suffers from heat that neither SMN-D (+1 eHSL CTpod) or C (-25% eCD CTpod) does.

Then you have the Cougar at 81 for a light with builds that are just mimicking the Mad Dog/Timber Wolf at worst (and not even the good variants, and also hardly more firepower than the Adder that goes faster) with not much to make up for its disadvantages, or people just running it as a worse ECM Shadow Cat with ECM+JJ pods.

And then slow (XL180-200) Panther builds getting bottlenecked by heat even though they only have like 30 alpha at best.
Fast Panthers (XL225) at least you could call as Wolfhounds with JJs.

Edited by Ttly, 17 December 2025 - 10:03 AM.

[PurplePuke]

I don't think IS Shadowhawks deserve to be on this list. There are some very effective builds for that mech.

[Meep Meep]

Dunno. 81kph is fast enough to stay ahead of the nascar and eventually catch up to the reds that got left behind. Slow to me is sub 70 then you find yourself getting overrun if your team leaves you behind.

[LordNothing]

there is a reason mediums are my least favorite class. im even using lights a lot less even though thats my second favorite class. they are fun but people are so good at hitting them its just not worth the drop.

[Ttly]

PurplePuke, on 17 December 2025 - 11:25 AM, said:

I don't think IS Shadowhawks deserve to be on this list. There are some very effective builds for that mech.

What, the SHD-2K for PPC poptarts? Even the Grasshopper does that better now with its +thrust quirk.
Or you know, the Summoner again.
Maybe the UAC SHD? I don't think it's that much better than just playing the UAC Hunchback other than having JJs though.
The RAC Shadow Hawk? Well that has the usual issues with RAC.

Certainly not the LB or velocity Shadow Hawks (2D and 2D2) even if they have -40% crit.
They're a lot more like slightly faster RGH-1A with JJs but worse damage and durability.
Or the LB Marauder (MAD-5M)

Scattershot has negative quirks with not much to make up for it, and the Gray Death has no heat quirks so that even 4ERMLs are hot on it.

Edited by Ttly, 17 December 2025 - 01:30 PM.

[Foeman-77]

I do just fine in my slower Clan lights and mediums. I shove so much firepower on them that they hit like IS heavies or assaults. The dps is lower due to heat but a small slow mech doesn't want to be out in the open for long anyway, shoot once then hide to cool down is much safer. Playing a small mech also gives my teammates more tonnage to work with so maybe they will do better. Speed gets me into trouble but rarely out of it, so instead I would much rather just bring more guns.

IS side I'm at a bit of a loss though. Compared to Clans it is very difficult to load up an IS light or medium with massive firepower without giving up something important. The IS equipment is just too heavy and bulky to make the midrange trading builds I want. I have a bunch of IS mediums mothballed because I just couldn't get useful performance out of any of them and most IS lights aren't even worth me trying to bother with.

[Ttly]

Foeman-77, on 17 December 2025 - 02:21 PM, said:

I do just fine in my slower Clan lights and mediums. I shove so much firepower on them that they hit like IS heavies or assaults. The dps is lower due to heat but a small slow mech doesn't want to be out in the open for long anyway, shoot once then hide to cool down is much safer. Playing a small mech also gives my teammates more tonnage to work with so maybe they will do better. Speed gets me into trouble but rarely out of it, so instead I would much rather just bring more guns.

Yeah because the Nova is decently quirked for once, or has high hardpoint count (Prime) with only the S (MPL+MG) or the B (UAC+laser) and the C (like the D but 3 weapon types instead of 2) being rather underwhelming with no clear gimmick niche like the A does.
Oh and the Breaker is a thing I guess.

Huntsman are mostly just worse Summoners with not much noteworthy So8, but you do have some mixpods that are just HLL+ERML (now with ECM on the leg) or other variations of hardpoint count stacking like Pakhet ATM or the 2UAC10 Trial Huntsman.

Vapor Eagles are either pretend heavies (LB Gorewing, 3PPC poptart on the others) or mediocre medium with the worst agility (that makes going fast to feel SLIPPERY) in the game, though you do have the Rival being "the best performing medium in the game" somehow because MASC I guess.

The HBK-IICs are straight up obsoleted by heavies like Bandit/MDD-C (2 C-UAC20) or also Summoner (3HLL+3ERML SMN-D CTpod or SRM+laser Summoner. or even the SRM40)

Edited by Ttly, 17 December 2025 - 03:12 PM.

[feeWAIVER]

Hunchback 4G is lethal, and you can kill people while only exposing like 5% of your mech.

[VeeOt Dragon]

what you are forgetting OP is that each weight class is very generally built for differing roles. Lights are scouts can fast harassers, they aren't meant to one shot of face time people. so as long as a light is going at least 80kph preferably 90kph your good. medium mechachs are you basic forces (in lore at least most militaries had plenty of mediums with few heavies and if they bring out the assaults you know things have gotten bad.) quick enough to maneuver well and with enough firepower to hold their own till something bigger comes to help. heavies are where the real firepower starts, slower but carrying more weapons and armor while still being maneuverable enough to shift if plans fall apart or someone needs help. the assaults are the anchors of any formation the brick wall and the heavy weapons platform they are slow so have to pick their target area with the rest keeping things from getting behind them while they pound away and with their larger arsenals.

there are outliers of course but generally speaking each weight class fits in its own tactical niche. i tend to mostly play heavies and assaults but every now and again i will pop in a medium (hell slap a S.B. Guass on a Grid Iron with a bit of ML back-up and watch how fast the sucker fires, or my Shadowhawk with its 3 L-PPCs and 2 SRM-6s) of course i find some of the 40-45 tonners a bit anemic in firepower (on the IS side since i don't play clan mechs often) but they can get work done if you play them right. if you have a fast medium you are running around doing our best to add firepower where its needed. slower mediums i tend to stick with larger mechs and act as support for them, pick a fatty buddy and stick with them. of course there are always a few mechs i just can't get to work for me, but i blame that more on my own piloting skills than anything else. the only lights i tend to play are Urbies, and everyone knows how much a pain in the *** a good urbie pilot can be (my favorite is a tie between the K-9 with a RAC/5 and a pair of ER SLs. and the i think its the R63 that i have loaded with 3 L-PPCs and 3 MGs neither one moves faster than 95kph)

agree some mechs need a little work but with a decent build you can do amazing things if you play to a mechs strengths. also you can't really compare IS to Clans based on speed since nearly all clan mechs are faster than IS and much safer to boot since Clan XL engines don't detonate the second you lose a torso. there are only a few builds i risk an XL on with IS mechs. also many IS mechs compensate by having better armor than clan counterparts (at least in MWO, thanks to some armor quirks.) though my experience could just be different since i don't generally play meta builds or the best optimized ones but can still do rather good with them.

Edited by VeeOt Dragon, Yesterday, 12:53 AM.

[Foeman-77]

Ttly, on 17 December 2025 - 02:40 PM, said:

The HBK-IICs are straight up obsoleted by heavies like Bandit/MDD-C (2 C-UAC20) or also Summoner (3HLL+3ERML SMN-D CTpod or SRM+laser Summoner. or even the SRM40)

I swear by my Hunchback IICs over any Clan heavy. The Bandit has lower mounts and no jjs, and while I like your Summoner build a lot that Summoner is a whole 20 tons heavier with worse mounts while only dealing the same amount of damage. The bigger mechs can take more hits, but that is all they got going for them.

I like Novas but as long as the Hunchback IICs exist I have little reason to run them. I get the impression that you like closer range high facetime builds (which are builds that I do not use) so they would be better for that at least.

I had never run a Huntsman until I got a free one just recently and ended up settling on a 2x UAC-10 build. It's pretty good, not inferior to the same build I've run on a Summoner, but mine has ECM and is 20 tons lighter. Definitely not impressed with laservomit on it though.

I agree with you on not getting the hype around the Vapor Eagle, I just don't see the appeal. I even own a Rival and don't like it.

Also, the reason I am fixated on lower tonnage, I run a lot of faction play and a good amount of group drops with tonnage limits. The same performance from smaller mechs is a huge boon there. Yeah, the larger mechs are a bit tougher and meaner, that is their job. But when the Summoner does a consistent 700+ damage and the 50 ton mech does a consistent 650+ damage is the extra 20 tons really worth it?

[Ttly]

Foeman-77, on 18 December 2025 - 05:50 AM, said:

-snip- post#13

The Summoner can casually take like 700 damage or so on most QP matches with some decent twisting, also that SMN-D has eHSL+1 and +10% eRange so it gets to do all of that damage at with more range in general than the HBK-IIC-A even.
Likewise for the Huntsman and the Nova save for the Huntsman having leg ECM now I guess, and the Nova actually having decent damage output because it actually has decent quirks.
And well, you got what I meant on the Vapor Eagle.
You know, my entire point was how the heavies that are just as fast are more durable, better range, better a lot of things really.

I guess the fast heavies on the IS are somewhat exempt since stuff like the Dragon also only has like 10DPS or 30-40 alpha on faster (80-90kph) builds without the accuracy and range of something like NCT-A (which is a 65kph). Or the laser Grasshoppers, Champion, Warhammer, most of the Thunderbolts, and the missile Crusaders also being seriously underwhelming.

As for group and drop decks, well that is a good point and tonnage balancing is stupid like that, but unless someone really insists on bringing an assault, you could just as well go like 3 Summoners.
Or you know, MDD-C/Bandits.

VeeOt Dragon, on 18 December 2025 - 12:49 AM, said:

-snip- post#12

Yes, stuff should be sorted by mobility (speed+JJs), weapon range, accuracy (spread damage or not), and damage output, since those determines their positioning.
I mean you got Gargoyle, Zeus, and Chargers, on top of heavies in the same position as these things doing just as much (or even more) damage.
Like I said on the previous reply to Foeman though, fast IS heavies I'd admit are in a just as bad spot.

Durability is a bit weird since it's determined by agility, hitbox, size, weapon placement, and hitpoint (armor+structure) though.

And I mean on your example with the Grid Iron alone, you could just as well play the Roughneck-2A with 1 gauss, or even 2 gauss RGH-2A and then realize how bad the Grid Iron is in retrospective save for having better agility, which is why it should be buffed if anything.
Likewise with the LPPC Shadowhawk with Grasshopper or Summoner.

Then there's the thing about cXL that I dislike is how its "survivability" seems to be the main excuse for lack of quirks on these slow mediums-lights as if surviving after losing an ST is meaningful enough of an advantage unless you have low heat builds like low tube count missiles (in which case you don't have much damage in the first place) or ballistics that aren't UACs (which usually means not having alpha as well).
Similiar thing with LE, but with their weight putting these things even slower and people immediately overheating themselves/only getting a single half alpha out after losing their ST at most before losing their CT anyway after being put in a worse position in the first place from the worse speed.

Edited by Ttly, Yesterday, 12:36 PM.

[PurplePuke]

Ttly, on 17 December 2025 - 01:05 PM, said:

What, the SHD-2K for PPC poptarts? Even the Grasshopper does that better now with its +thrust quirk.
Or you know, the Summoner again.
Maybe the UAC SHD? I don't think it's that much better than just playing the UAC Hunchback other than having JJs though.
The RAC Shadow Hawk? Well that has the usual issues with RAC.

Certainly not the LB or velocity Shadow Hawks (2D and 2D2) even if they have -40% crit.
They're a lot more like slightly faster RGH-1A with JJs but worse damage and durability.
Or the LB Marauder (MAD-5M)

Scattershot has negative quirks with not much to make up for it, and the Gray Death has no heat quirks so that even 4ERMLs are hot on it.

Comparing the medium-weight Shadowhawk to the Grasshopper and the Summoner is not sensible. Those are both heavy-class mechs.

The Shadowhawk 2K with 3xLPPC and 3xSRM4 is quite deadly. So is the Shadowhawk 5M built around the AC20 or UAC20, and it's far more durable than the Hunchback you say is comparable. Even the 2H with T-bolts performs well.

The 5M is the slowest of them at 75 kph which is just fine.


(I'm in Tier 2 for reference.)

[Ttly]

PurplePuke, on 18 December 2025 - 01:00 PM, said:

Comparing the medium-weight Shadowhawk to the Grasshopper and the Summoner is not sensible. Those are both heavy-class mechs.

The Shadowhawk 2K with 3xLPPC and 3xSRM4 is quite deadly. So is the Shadowhawk 5M built around the AC20 or UAC20, and it's far more durable than the Hunchback you say is comparable. Even the 2H with T-bolts performs well.

The 5M is the slowest of them at 75 kph which is just fine.


(I'm in Tier 2 for reference.)

They cost the same on quickplay, a player slot on your team, not "tonnage cost" or even BV.
They position similarly due to their speed as well due to the chassis tonnage to engine rating speed scaling.
Unless you're one of those people allergic to IS XL as if you even live that long after losing ST on LE and how the Shadow Hawk's CT hitbox is rather vulnerable despite how it looks, or totally unwilling to try out XL on heavies/assaults.

And really? 3LPPC+SRM12? Even that doesn't have much over those two JJ heavies save for being slightly faster at 88kph, and well you'd probably cry if an decent fast light player is around, I know I would.

U/AC20 on the 5M, well the Trial Huntsman (2C-UAC10) is right over there as a benchmark, and it moves at 81kph on top of more range, and it also means you can't use XL, which puts you smack dab on the heavy (i.e stuff like the Orion or Black Knight) positions with LE which is even worse without as much damage or durability.

Likewise with the 2H and TBMs just because of how heavy the launchers are, though being compact, you can fit XL instead so you're not just a stunted heavy I guess, but then also you can use an RAC2/5 if you're going to direct fire longer than two seconds at something with the 2H unless it's a light, which the TBMs admittedly does hit well.
Then again the Trebuchet is also right there with more cooldown quirks.

And hey, if you want to show off tiers, I'm in TIer 1 for reference then, though I really think PSR is a pretty bad joke anyway.

Edited by Ttly, Yesterday, 03:50 PM.

[Xypherious]

Mediums just plain suck, barring outliers. I find lights aren't too great these days, either, mainly due to the game being a snipefest. Backstabbers need the enemy distracted and/or isolated, which doesn't happen so much when most games are gun lines peek-and-shooting. They're far too easy to hit when going 120+ and being evasive, too.

Edited by Xypherious, Yesterday, 10:43 PM.

[LordNothing]

i have a feeling lights are balanced for lower tiers. in t2 it seemed like everyone knew how to rapidly dispatch lights. was running firemoths recently and i didnt have any luck until i dropped back to t3. round mid t3 seemed i was maintianing psr again. though this could have just been the streak pendulum switching directions. its a good opportunity to run some of my less useful mechs.