18 replies to this topic

[LavaDa1shi]

I had the idea of globally buffing torso speed so that the torsos feel more like the ones from MechWarrior 2 and MechWarrior 3 and I'm curious to hear other peoples thoughts on it.

There are three main reasons behind it.

1: It would make the more problematic and agile lights and psudo lights (Mainly masc ones like the vulcan and flea) less problematic because they would be easier to hit because you would get more control over your torso.

Mechs like the Annihilator have torsos so slow they can barely track the more agile ones without torso speed nodes when the light is piloted by a decent player, and even then it's still a huge pain.
I find it's much easier to track and hit lights when I myself am in a light.

1 (new version):
I have seen discussion in the cauldron feedback discord before about masc nerfs, it's been a bit since I have been in the discord but iirc the two main arguments I have heard is that

For Masc Nerf: Masc should be nerfed because it's not fun to fight against lights and mediums with that much agility.

Against Masc Nerf: Masc should not be nerfed because the skill required to be good at the movement involved with masc is fun and if masc is nerfed it will be less skill expressive and less fun.

The idea with buffing torso speed is not to counter lights because lights are oppressive or OP, but to allow the movement skill expression to exist, but to be able to be fun to fight against and to be beatable by being a skilled aimer.

If some lights become too weak because of this change which I can see being possible, they should be buffed to make up for it.
2: This is the main reason for why I thought of this idea, but I am sure to most people it's more of a secondary bonus, it also is why it would be a global buff, not just assaults and heavies.

It would make aiming much more fun! I find satisfying and fun aim mechanics come from the game accurately translating your mouse movements to the torsos movement,
and this would do that as currently with the limited torso speed, and the weird acceleration, and deceleration that the torso has aiming feels weird especially on larger mechs, and this change would help reduce that.

3:It would raise the skill ceiling.
By having more control of the torso the skill ceiling for aim would be higher.


A clarification to make sure it's extra clear, I am not asking to remove the torso speed limitation, I just think a buff to global torso speed could help the game be more fun!

The only concern I can think of is that this would mess with balance by increasing durability because of torso twisting.
But after some thinking I don't think this would be much of an issue because the huge majority of mechs have survival skills
so in theory if it makes some specific mech too strong you could nerf it's survival quirks.

I am curious to hear others thoughts and some possible concerns I may have failed to think of.


Edit:
New note, someone mentioned the idea of instead of a global torso speed buff, just buffing the torso speed node in the skill tree, I really like that idea probably more than the original one I had.

Edited by LavaDa1shi, 26 December 2025 - 09:28 PM.

[Ilfi]

LavaDa1shi, on 26 December 2025 - 03:01 PM, said:

I am curious to hear others thoughts and some possible concerns I may have failed to think of.

Hmmm... are Lights overperforming? and are Assaults like the Annihilator underperforming? If a Mech is hard to use but still performing better than others, does it need buffs? I don't have the numbers, but logically you'd want to buff the weak Mechs and not buff the ones that are already strong.

[Drenzul]

So basically you want to make light mechs unless?
That is what it sounds like.

Lights are already easy enough to counter with a little teamwork.

[VeeOt Dragon]

yeah i think things are fine where they stand. if you want to buff your twist speed there are skill nodes for it. (i often put a point or two in there for my slower twisting mechs.) though we could always talk about improving the percentage that the skill nodes give you. other than that i would have to say no to a global increase and this is coming from someone who mostly plays heavies and assaults.

[LavaDa1shi]

Ilfi, on 26 December 2025 - 03:12 PM, said:

Hmmm... are Lights overperforming? and are Assaults like the Annihilator underperforming? If a Mech is hard to use but still performing better than others, does it need buffs? I don't have the numbers, but logically you'd want to buff the weak Mechs and not buff the ones that are already strong.

Ok this is a very good question and will be a fun one to answer, and also a tough one to unpack so prepare yourself.

So first there is an important thing to understand, this change nerfs lights by increasing the skill ceiling instead of lowering it, if the assault player has bad aim they won't be able to utilize the change, or if the light player has bad movement it won't have a significant affect because they are already easy to hit.

So I would say lights are overperforming ... in comp, and that's where I believe this would have the most affect as that's where the best aim is, and also where the best light pilots are.

And conversely in Tier 5 and Tier 4 where the majority of the player base is I believe this will have almost no affect because generally everyone has bad movement and bad aim.

So the idea is making it so that you can counter mechanical skill in the form of movement with mechanical skill in the form of aim, instead of just nerfing lights so they are worse in general because they are too tanky when a player with good movement uses them.

Edited by LavaDa1shi, 26 December 2025 - 04:26 PM.

[LavaDa1shi]

Drenzul, on 26 December 2025 - 04:12 PM, said:

So basically you want to make light mechs unless?
That is what it sounds like.

Lights are already easy enough to counter with a little teamwork.

I believe lights are weakest in disorganized game modes like QP, in competitive play where people are the most skilled lights are at their strongest.

Also I don't think a torso speed buff would make lights useless, they are already very strong in QP, not OP though, and this change wouldn't really change that.

VeeOt Dragon, on 26 December 2025 - 04:23 PM, said:

yeah i think things are fine where they stand. if you want to buff your twist speed there are skill nodes for it. (i often put a point or two in there for my slower twisting mechs.) though we could always talk about improving the percentage that the skill nodes give you. other than that i would have to say no to a global increase and this is coming from someone who mostly plays heavies and assaults.

I find most mechs torsos are so slow that I use full torso speed on like 99% of my mechs, and a lot of assaults, and heavies, and even some mediums torsos feel too slow for my taste even than, but at that point it's more because of the other two reasons I want the change, not the first one lol.
Buffing the skill node instead of the mechs is a cool idea though, I really like that.

Edited by LavaDa1shi, 26 December 2025 - 05:14 PM.

[GreyNovember]

LavaDa1shi, on 26 December 2025 - 04:34 PM, said:

I believe lights are weakest in disorganized game modes like QP, in competitive play where people are the most skilled lights are at their strongest.

This statement confuses me greatly.

Lights do their best work when the opposing force is divided, and unable or unwilling to support one another.

They're a terrible mech to be in when the OPFOR is coordinated, united, and covers each other's flanks such that you can't get a cheeky backstab in, or run circles with impunity around someone who doesn't know to put their back to the wall.

All of this sounds like the reverse of your position. Competitive, organized play would dump on light mechs assuming parity of basic skills through sheer attrition, and QP chaos benefits the random solo light.

[LavaDa1shi]

GreyNovember, on 26 December 2025 - 06:12 PM, said:

This statement confuses me greatly.

Lights do their best work when the opposing force is divided, and unable or unwilling to support one another.

They're a terrible mech to be in when the OPFOR is coordinated, united, and covers each other's flanks such that you can't get a cheeky backstab in, or run circles with impunity around someone who doesn't know to put their back to the wall.

All of this sounds like the reverse of your position. Competitive, organized play would dump on light mechs assuming parity of basic skills through sheer attrition, and QP chaos benefits the random solo light.

Lights are very strong in competitive play because they work best when supported, they work amazing in wolf packs with the assaults being anchors to support their actions.

This is supported by the fact that the general standard deck in comp is like 5 lights and the rest of the tonnage poured into 3 assaults with long range to overwatch them, and it would probably be more lights to assaults if it weren't for the fact that minimum tonnage limits exist in every tournament so after choosing your lights you have to put tonnage somewhere.

Video of a standard comp deck vs full lights and psudo lights, old but still relevant and showcased my point.
https://youtu.be/bRd...qpLFhlbdkaprwqF

And to be fair it is in large part because in comp caps are way more important than in QP and lights and fast mediums cap the best.

In QP lights aren't as strong because there is rarely any form of teamwork so lights actions are rarely being properly supported by the rest of the team.
I would love to hear what other comp players think, maybe most others would disagree and say that the disorganization of the opfor is more beneficial than the organization of your own team, but I at this time don't believe that.


Edit:
I just realized my mistake, I thought the original post I responded to was saying in a environment with more teamwork on both sides lights are weaker, I believe they meant that lights are easily countered by teamwork in QP where both sides usually don't have teamwork, while this is true the issue is it isn't only true for lights, pretty much everything is countered by having better team work, not just light mechs.

Edited by LavaDa1shi, 26 December 2025 - 07:12 PM.

[GreyNovember]

That is certainly a different view. I will readily admit I play solely in QP, and almost entirely as a solo dropper, so whatever experiences you have are strange and alien to me.

Addressing the actual OP Premise, wouldn't the solution to " My torso twists too slowly " be " Increase your engine size, or go down a weight class for faster response"? Or use Lower arm actuator mechs?

The whole point of the big, lumbering, massive gun boat is to... well, feel like one, no?

Though I can't help but wonder if the problem is not turn speed, but total twist capacity. The few times I've wandered into heavier weight classes, I constantly found myself maxed out on twist and unable to properly track a target without slowly turning on my legs as they move out of my firing arc. This is mitigated, naturally, the more agile the mech is turning in place, which is probably why you feel tracking lights is easier in another light.

[LavaDa1shi]

GreyNovember, on 26 December 2025 - 08:02 PM, said:

That is certainly a different view. I will readily admit I play solely in QP, and almost entirely as a solo dropper, so whatever experiences you have are strange and alien to me.

Addressing the actual OP Premise, wouldn't the solution to " My torso twists too slowly " be " Increase your engine size, or go down a weight class for faster response"? Or use Lower arm actuator mechs?

The whole point of the big, lumbering, massive gun boat is to... well, feel like one, no?

Though I can't help but wonder if the problem is not turn speed, but total twist capacity. The few times I've wandered into heavier weight classes, I constantly found myself maxed out on twist and unable to properly track a target without slowly turning on my legs as they move out of my firing arc. This is mitigated, naturally, the more agile the mech is turning in place, which is probably why you feel tracking lights is easier in another light.

Lower arm actuators definitely help, it's a big part of why one of my favourite ERLL Traders is the AS7-BH all the weapons are in the arms combined with the LAAs, that combined with the very high torso speed for a mech of it's size makes aiming in it really fun.

The problem is lots of mechs either don't have LAAs, or they can't put enough weapons just in the arms for the build to be good, and there is also the problem that if you have a choice between arms and torsos more often than not you're usually better off putting the weapons in the torsos because of mounts and convergence.

The Boars Head is only good with all arms because it can barely put any weapons in the torsos so it has to use the arms, so it gets extra quirks to make up for this, which lots of mechs that get a choice between torsos and arms don't get those quirks.

I don't think the issue is torso twist range because otherwise the issue would only be against face hug brawl lights, but it happens with all kinds lights, I can try testing it anyway but I don't see it helping personally.

The Issue is most noticeable when something like a Vulcan counter twists while jj fluttering while using masc, they become really hard to track and it goes from a control track to a reactive track where you kind of have to flick onto them and then continue tracking them, which lots of assaults just can't do because their torso is too slow to flick, and often too slow to track as well.


Also since engines were desynced with agility increasing the engine won't help because the agility will remain the same.

Also I am going to update the OP when I get a chance cause after seeing some of the replies I feel like I failed to properly express what I was trying to in the first point I made.

Edited by LavaDa1shi, 27 December 2025 - 06:40 AM.

[martian]

The fact is that assault 'Mechs are already the strongest class in the Quick Play with the best W/L ratio, the best average MS and the best K/D ratio.

The idea of boosting the already strongest assault 'Mechs even further is beyond comical.

On the other hand, light 'Mechs have been the weakest class in the Quick Play with the worst W/L ratio, the worst average MS and the worst K/D ratio. The idea of nerfing the already weakest class even further is beyond comical.

As for the competetive scene ... Well, that's utterly irrelevant, since the majority of MWO players has nothing to do with it. Balancing 'Mechs with regards how they perform in comp would be about as nonsensical as balancing them on how they perform in the Faction Play or in any other niche game mode.

Balancing of 'Mechs must be done with the respect on how they perform in the Quick Play, since that is the game mode that the absolutely majority of MWO players plays. And the stats say that assault 'Mechs are already the most powerful class that needs no boosting and light 'Mechs are the weakest class that definitely needs no nerfing.

[LavaDa1shi]

martian, on 27 December 2025 - 12:24 AM, said:

The fact is that assault 'Mechs are already the strongest class in the Quick Play with the best W/L ratio, the best average MS and the best K/D ratio.

The idea of boosting the already strongest assault 'Mechs even further is beyond comical.

On the other hand, light 'Mechs have been the weakest class in the Quick Play with the worst W/L ratio, the worst average MS and the worst K/D ratio. The idea of nerfing the already weakest class even further is beyond comical.

As for the competetive scene ... Well, that's utterly irrelevant, since the majority of MWO players has nothing to do with it. Balancing 'Mechs with regards how they perform in comp would be about as nonsensical as balancing them on how they perform in the Faction Play or in any other niche game mode.

Balancing of 'Mechs must be done with the respect on how they perform in the Quick Play, since that is the game mode that the absolutely majority of MWO players plays. And the stats say that assault 'Mechs are already the most powerful class that needs no boosting and light 'Mechs are the weakest class that definitely needs no nerfing.

So I was hoping that changing the original post would help, but it seems not, I am not sure where I am failing to get this point across?

I am not arguing that lights are OP or oppressive and need to be nerfed.

Like I said in the updated version, if lights are hurt too much by the change, which is very possible to happen to multiple of them, they should be buffed to compensate.

The idea is supposed to be mostly a mechanical change, not a balance one, it's meant to make masc lights more fun and rewarding and less frustrating to fight against without nerfing them.

And comp was only brought up as a comparison to say that the change would have most affect in comp, and likely wouldn't be nearly as significant in QP as far as balance imo.

Edited by LavaDa1shi, 27 December 2025 - 05:51 AM.

[w0qj]

I'm OK with a global torso twist buff

[GreyNovember]

On a a practical level, I agree it -probably- won't actually affect anything in QP.

The people who have trouble keeping a laser burn on target or snapshotting accurately & quickly ( So me, and probably the majority of solo droppers on a weekday night) will not be assisted in any real form by turning faster, because our hands twitch slightly shoving the mouse up/down when we don't want it to, or our sensitivity is too high and we can't be bothered to engage a high and low sensitivity mode when aiming vs twisting.

On principle, this sounds like the demigods are descending from on high to try and decree they want to have more fun at potentially the expense of the peasants, which is where my feels trigger a strong "I don't like it" pushback reaction.

Like, okay, say lights are "buffed" to compensate for a potential loss in TTK for them, because now you can hit them easier. Any way you slice it, a meaningful exchange of buffs is just the arms race escalating.

[White Glint]

Lights do need nerfs imo because they traded their durability for their speed and sometimes weapons but in mwo right now they are so tanky that they have the best speed in the game and then similar weapons to heavier mechs and then sometimes they are one of the tankiest mechs in the game like the commando do3 so even with this agility change i think they should get raw hp nerfs anyway but the agility buff would be nice for bigger mechs cause aiming in the game feels horrible and it feels horrible for lights as well the only stuff i enjoy which is generous right now are lower arm actuator only usually lighter stuff because of how bad it is but nobody really cares about the skill ceiling or expression instead we just get blue laser buffs and pet mechs lol

[LavaDa1shi]

GreyNovember, on 27 December 2025 - 10:56 AM, said:

On a a practical level, I agree it -probably- won't actually affect anything in QP. The people who have trouble keeping a laser burn on target or snapshotting accurately & quickly ( So me, and probably the majority of solo droppers on a weekday night) will not be assisted in any real form by turning faster, because our hands twitch slightly shoving the mouse up/down when we don't want it to, or our sensitivity is too high and we can't be bothered to engage a high and low sensitivity mode when aiming vs twisting. On principle, this sounds like the demigods are descending from on high to try and decree they want to have more fun at potentially the expense of the peasants, which is where my feels trigger a strong "I don't like it" pushback reaction. Like, okay, say lights are "buffed" to compensate for a potential loss in TTK for them, because now you can hit them easier. Any way you slice it, a meaningful exchange of buffs is just the arms race escalating.

I understand that concern, it makes sense.

But think about this, if you're movement in lights is already bad, it also won't affect you, because good players will already be able to easily hit you anyway.

In fact it would probably help you because you're taking about the same amount of damage as before, but you get extra survival quirks to protect you.

It would mainly just make it more fun for good players fighting other good players lol.

Though it does give me thought, good assault players wouldn't be more oppressive to average light players, but skilled light players would be way more oppressive against your average QP assault player, as the average assaults aim likely isn't good enough to make use of the change, so if lights got additional quirks that's actually a pretty big issue.

Edited by LavaDa1shi, 27 December 2025 - 11:35 AM.

[LavaDa1shi]

White Glint, on 27 December 2025 - 11:25 AM, said:

Lights do need nerfs imo because they traded their durability for their speed and sometimes weapons but in mwo right now they are so tanky that they have the best speed in the game and then similar weapons to heavier mechs and then sometimes they are one of the tankiest mechs in the game like the commando do3 so even with this agility change i think they should get raw hp nerfs anyway but the agility buff would be nice for bigger mechs cause aiming in the game feels horrible and it feels horrible for lights as well the only stuff i enjoy which is generous right now are lower arm actuator only usually lighter stuff because of how bad it is but nobody really cares about the skill ceiling or expression instead we just get blue laser buffs and pet mechs lol

I would actually agree that lights are too strong, but I have been trying to stay away from that discussion mainly because I just don't play lights enough, but also I find the "are lights OP?" discussion really boring personally and I didn't feel like getting into it lol, so I have just been saying that if it makes them too weak they could be buffed.
,

But if you want to go into it yourself feel free!

Edited by LavaDa1shi, 27 December 2025 - 11:40 AM.

[Green Astronaut]

They could definitely start with a full revamp of some of the almost never used skill tree nodes. I think that would be a good place to start. I was literally trying the So8 DWF-S for funsies (+45% torso speed and turn rate) and honestly, you notice it, but just barely. I notice the bigger problem with players and mech twist speed is the out of positioning. Torso twist isn't going to save you from that. However, buffing twist speed could be a boon to boxy mechs that have trouble shielding by twisting.

Edit: The build The dmg

Edited by Green Astronaut, 27 December 2025 - 01:34 PM.

[LavaDa1shi]

Green Astronaut, on 27 December 2025 - 01:26 PM, said:

They could definitely start with a full revamp of some of the almost never used skill tree nodes. I think that would be a good place to start. I was literally trying the So8 DWF-S for funsies (+45% torso speed and turn rate) and honestly, you notice it, but just barely. I notice the bigger problem with players and mech twist speed is the out of positioning. Torso twist isn't going to save you from that. However, buffing twist speed could be a boon to boxy mechs that have trouble shielding by twisting.

Edit: The build The dmg

I think updating some of the worse skill nodes (Hope fully including torso speed lol) would be great! Right now there are just some mandatory picks on 90% of builds if you want to do well.

I honestly immediately and easily noticed the torso speed on the DWF-S, the torso is so much more responsive, it's way more fun to aim with in my opinion, it's honestly become my new favourite Dire Wolf.

It's true that positioning is a much bigger issue for people trying not to die to lights. But my goal with the idea is less to die less to lights and more to make fighting lights more fun, and rewarding of good aim, and less frustrating.

Edited by LavaDa1shi, 27 December 2025 - 05:46 PM.