583 replies to this topic

[Skwisgaar Skwigelf]

Fair enough. I shall wait and see.

[Skwisgaar Skwigelf]

I almost want to create a character named Knute Kurita so I can have some outlandish exploits.

[KillBox]

Could I officially apply for the 1st Skjaldborg "Huscarls"?
Sounds like an outfit I can sink my teeth into.

[Idiot Proof]

No Gods, No Masters

FRR have my vote

[Dihm]

KillBox, on 13 December 2011 - 09:58 AM, said:

Could I officially apply for the 1st Skjaldborg "Huscarls"?
Sounds like an outfit I can sink my teeth into.

It doesn't TECHNICALLY exist yet... It's just a theoretical unit that the 3rd Drakons will become instead of a Faction Unit. So, you're welcome to hop over (direct link, see sig for link to recruitment thread on MWO forums) and apply to the 3rd for now. We're just waiting (fingers crossed it's tomorrow!) on a bit more clarity on what the difference between mercs and faction will be.

Edit: Aww, just checked the schedule, looks like the Q&A isn't until NEXT Wednesday.

Edited by Dihm, 13 December 2011 - 10:59 AM.

[Dihm]

***** Proof, on 13 December 2011 - 10:20 AM, said:

No Gods, No Masters

FRR have my vote

Technically... the state religion is Lutheran (1/3 of the population). Neo-Norse is making big gains though.

[Jacob]

Dihm, on 13 December 2011 - 10:45 AM, said:

Technically... the state religion is Lutheran (1/3 of the population). Neo-Norse is making big gains though.

It would be cool if last day of servers being online would end with Ragnarok being released upon players.

Edited by Jacob, 13 December 2011 - 11:09 AM.

[Dihm]

It would! But I don't want to ponder the possibility of MWO shutting down already, lol.

[Grimm Wulf]

Dihm, I will get to your in my next posts, when ever that might happend (this post has taken several hours already to write by now)... to much to reply to since my last post so I feel I should devide it up.

VEDRFOLNIR, on 12 December 2011 - 02:10 PM, said:

Grimm Wulf, I've gotta echo Dihm here - your posts are informative and fun to read, so thanks for sharing with us!

Diablo48, on 12 December 2011 - 03:13 PM, said:

I must say I also enjoy reading your posts Grimm Wulf. They provide a lot of great information and are very interesting to read even if I do not have any special interest in the topic or the discussion.

Thanks... honestly I am not used to people actually seeming to read my posts. But hey, maybe many do but don't normaly actually say it. I have just always got the feeling that most people facepalms every time I post something. Heck, even I do that at times. Because even though I am the one who writes them, I don't actually like that I write just as much as I do.

I wish I was able to get across what I want to say with less amount of words. Since it is not uncommon for me to spend an hour or more on just one post. Due to my "routine" when writing is to write, read, rewrite, reread, fix, reread, tamper, reread, and what not until all of it basicly "sounds right" to me, and usualy reread one more time after I posted it just to make sure. If it does not sound right, I change it. Sometimes even deleting large parts of a post, or even an entire post, to start over.

Just 30 seconds befor I started writing this particular paragraph your reading now, I deleted 5 paragraphs from this location which I felt did not need to be in the post (unnecessary information). If I had left those 5 paragraphs in, this post would have been about 75% bigger. Took me 10 minutes to write this paragraph "the right way".

VEDRFOLNIR, on 12 December 2011 - 02:10 PM, said:

---Sorry Ved... I snipped the rest of your posts... this posts I am writing already looks to big as it is.

*nods* History has always been one of my favorit subjects... or atleast parts of history in certain parts of the world. I am basicly interested in anything pertaining to the Germanic people, and their impact on the world in general (which is I would say pretty significant), so there it can go millenias back in time. But mainly I prefer basicly Europe from roughly the year 400-500 (so basicly the start of the middle ages) up untill roughly very late 17th, and maybe a little bit into the 18th centry (sort of varies). Some time during/after that things got a bit to... "fancy" (both in warfair, and in clothing)... for my liking. I guess you could roughly say that around the time the Plate Armour really started to become obsolete is when I started to lose interest. I do like some of the stuff befor the middle ages, but just not as much, and usualy only if it mainly involves the Germanic people somehow. So for example the Roman Empire thing, is all right really, but I still feel a bit "meh" about it, the parts I am interested in is the parts mainly connected to the Germanic and the Gladiators (probably my 3rd favorite type of historical Warrior). The next stage where I got interested in the history after 17th-18th century again was WWII, but with the end of the war in 45, my interest for the following history basicly evaporates again. I am always interested in the future as well. What's going to happend, where is humanity, technology, science, games, movies, tv-series, you name it. "What's next?!" basicly.

If I where to narrow it down, into the things which most of my history interest in general comes form... it would be two things... two types of warriors to be precise.

Nr1: Knights. To me there is not really much else that could beat that (and I don't mean in a combat sence, pr the nobleman part, or the honour system either, I more just mean in a general "coolness" sence). I love the whole thing with sword+Shield+Plate Armour. The horse and lance is also cool, but it's the 3 other parts I really like. Swords are clearly my favorit types of weapons (the european types that is). When ever I play a game (fantasy and/or middle ages like,) that is pretty much always my aim, to get my character the best 1h sword, heavy armour and shield (I rarely use 2 handed melee weapons).

Nr1.1 (yes, 1.1 you saw right): Viking Warriors. I don't really think I need to say that much more then that... but I will. For one, they are Scandinavian, which clearly align very well with me. Another reason is that they where very good at what they did, be it raiding, or "proper" war. They where of course also good at sea and a bit of trading and all that as well, but I prefer the fighting stuff. Yet another reason is the impact they had on Europe, and a few other places in the world, which was pretty darn large. In some cases even building a foundation on some several locations for other to later build up on, and from that in their own right become a factor in this world. I also sort of consider Vikings to be the pinnacle of Barbarian Warriors, sort of a mix between barbarian ideal, temperament, and what not, with a more "normal" warrior. Which for me is a good thing, because I have never really gone for the whole barbarian thing when I play games, I tend to prefer more... level headed characters (like my self) when I play. The reason why I say the Viking is a nr1.1, is due to the lack of heavy armour, if they had done that.. well... then... oh my... a Viking Knight... I shiver at the thought. I guess the closest thing you can get to a Viking Knight in history would be the Normands, but they where far enough removed from the Vikings for me to not really think of them as Vikings anymore.

In games I rarely interest my self with ranged combat (even though I do use them if it's needed at the time), nor do I interest my self with magic. If anything I find magic to be extreamly boring to be a characters main go-to thing (not that I find it boring if other characters use it, or characters in movies/tv-series or what ever, but almost never on my own main character). At best I will use it if needed, otherwise I am all about getting right up into the enemies space and ruining their day as I dispatching them with my sword. My first character in Skyrim is a Nord melee warrior with main weaponry being 1h sword + heavy shield, and of course heavy armour... mmm Viking Knight (minus the horse and lance, not bought a horse yet of some reason, even though I am level 38 and all)... Strange thing with games though, gameplay wise up intil the melee combat starts, I am totaly a sneaker. I sneak around in my full plate armour, observe the enemy, see what they do, where they go, their routine etc. And then calculate the perfect place to attack each one alone, or groups of them, and then take them out. Anything to get the job done in the most effective, and quiet way... which would normaly really clash with the whole thing of full plate armour thing. I rather spend 10+ minuts checking things out, and then take 10-20+ minutes clearing the area out... then run-and-gun in and be done in 2-5 minutes. I like having some levels of control over the situation no matter what the setting.

How ever, in sci-fi/future/present day settings, the part about melee and ranged combat changes for me. Then I rather play as a compleat ranged character, and only use melee if I really have to. Feel the same about magic if it's in the game. I usualy prefer an assault rifle (with scope if possible), rifle (again with scope if possible), or sniper rifle (which normaly do have a scope). And if it is available, I do go with the heavy armour here as well. Gameplay wise I am still totally a sneaker, doing the same as above. Except that the end result is usualy a "oneshot, headshot, sniping from as large of a range as possible" thing. No matter what the weapon is, pistol to sniper rifle. I rarely use any kind of explosive weaponry, grenades, mines, traps, flamers or any other "fancy/flashy" weaponry. A regular solid slug spitting weapon for me thanks (or what ever is the "regular type of thing" in the game). In the MechWarrior/MechCommander games I have tended to go for the full laser/energy weapons setups though, due to the "no ammunition limit", made more sence to me then risk running out of ammo.

Edited by Grimm Wulf, 13 December 2011 - 12:32 PM.

[Skwisgaar Skwigelf]

Grimm Wulf, on 13 December 2011 - 12:23 PM, said:

I wish I was able to get across what I want to say with less amount of words. Since it is not uncommon for me to spend an hour or more on just one post. Due to my "routine" when writing is to write, read, rewrite, reread, fix, reread, tamper, reread, and what not until all of it basicly "sounds right" to me, and usualy reread one more time after I posted it just to make sure. If it does not sound right, I change it. Sometimes even deleting large parts of a post, or even an entire post, to start over.

Just 30 seconds befor I started writing this particular paragraph your reading now, I deleted 5 paragraphs from this location which I felt did not need to be in the post (unnecessary information). If I had left those 5 paragraphs in, this post would have been about 75% bigger. Took me 10 minutes to write this paragraph "the right way".

There are too many people (and I'm not discluding myself from this group) who say or post without even thinking about what they said or posted so the fact that you take your time to say what you need to say the way you want to say it says a lot.

Sorry to have confused everybody with that sentence.

Grimm Wulf for Company Historian!

[Dihm]

Skwisgaar Skwigelf, on 13 December 2011 - 12:38 PM, said:

Grimm Wulf for Company Historian!

He'd have my vote.

[Grimm Wulf]

Skwisgaar Skwigelf, on 12 December 2011 - 08:29 PM, said:

BTW - Thor's Hammer = Mjolnir.

Indeed it is...

But if we/you want to be correct with this in the case of FRR, seeing as the official language of the FRR is Swedish, it would be "Mjölner".

The Swedish word for "Flour" is "Mjöl"... but "Mjöl" can also be used to refer to anything that has been pulverized into a powder (even if normaly we use "Pulver" for powers in general). A Miller in Swedish is called a "Mjölnare". The word for "grind" is "Mala" which I think also sort of comes from Mjölner. The name of the hammer basicly means "the crusher", or "the pulverizer", so yeah... clearly this hammer was important to people, important enough to name every day stuff something simmilar.

In Norwegian the hammer is named "Mjølner" or "Mjolne". In Danish it is "Mjølner" as well (the Norwegian's writen language came from the Danish. I read somewhere that "Norwegian is Danish spoken in Swedish". So in other words, if a Swede where to read outloud a Danish text, it would sound Norwegian... not sure how true this is though, never tested it ). In Finnish... hmm... at first I thought google was f'ing with me, but when I checked on the Finnish wikipedia, it turns out their name for the hammer is the same as in Swedish "Mjölner". I guess 550+ years of being Swedish really does put it's mark on a people and its language.

I left in Dihm's entire message in this quote since this is a new page, so people don't have to switch back and forth.

Dihm, on 12 December 2011 - 07:34 PM, said:

Okay, so, making that insignia got my mind a whirl about a Merc Unit using these names. Since the 3rd Drakons may be locked out by the system for the faction, this may become something real, lol.


The unit would be (the?) Skjaldborg, the Shieldwall of Rasalhague.

(that's supposed to be overlapped shields out on a battlefield, a shield showing each of the major companies within the unit)

Beneath it, there'd have various companies.

The 1st Skjaldborg would be the Huscarls. The meat and potatoes of the merc unit. Well rounded and varied in the mechs and contracts it takes. This is the shield on the left, the crossed axes. Just using that as a placeholder. Below this unit there could have units/lances like "Loki's Chosen/Sons", "Thor's Hammer" (cliche or what?), whatever the Lance Leader would like.


The 2nd Skjaldborg would be Drakdräparna, the Dragonslayers. Specialize in lightning raids into Kurita space.


The 3rd Skjaldborg would be the Svinfylking, the Boar's Snout/Swine Array. Specialize in shock attacks with heavy/assault mechs. Smash the enemy, get in close to brawl.


Command group/lance would be the Thegns, something of the sort. Just rough concepts on the artwork here (not my specialty!), don't judge me too harshly.

I have this feeling of both "I like it!", and "I have concerns!". I like the general idea of it, where it is heading and all. So keep that in mind when I continue with my "small" (read as "possibly big") list of concerns.

My first thing is the name of the entire unit, Skjaldborg, I like the word it's self. But the problem I have comes when you look at what happends to the word when you are going to refer to someone as being one of the Skjaldborg unit. So "is a Skjaldborg", would be "is a Skjaldborgare". Borgare is the part that raises my concerns.

In "olden times", "Borgare" where regular people (like same "level" as peasants and what not) who lived in "Borgar" (plural of Borg), so fortress'. Borgar would often turn into towns and cities over time, due to both protection, being spread out pretty well, and close to importent stuff and roads. Anyway at first Borgare where the people who had goten/bought the right in their town they lived in to do buisness. So craftsmanship, trading, health stuff, law, etc. They often had the right to be in the councils of that town, to vote and all that, usually lead by the "Borgmästare" (litteraly "Fort-master", but it actully means Mayor). Over time this class of people became an class of their own, amongst a total fo 4 now (Noblemen, Priests, Borgare, and the regular peasants) they became more of an upper class (just not as "upper" as Nobleman and Priests though). They where not down at the peasent level, they where not either down at the normal level for most people who lived in towns, but they where not as high as the nobility. But in general their opinions mattered. The good thing about them is of course that they basicly sponsored the English, American, and of course the French Revolutions. But as time went, these people have basicly become "the rich people" of this world. Politicly they are the people who do not really want any or much change, and the only change they want is the change that will only really benefit huge companies and of course the rich (them selves of course, the massivelly huge minority of the planet)... which pretty much usualy means that the impact on the majority of people is a negetive one. I belive in English they are called conservative, but I might be wrong. So in Sweden, all the people who lean towards this type of thinking, are today refered to as "Borgare". Opposit to them politicly are of course the people who want to change things so that it benefit the people more, the genertal masses, the core of each nation... I guess they are the ones called liberal (since that's opposit to conservative... right?).

So I hope you can see why I have my concerns about calling the unit Skjaldborg. Because first of all, "Borgare" where never really the fighters of towns, the main concern they had was how to get richer. It was other people, the lower class people, who where the ones who had to do the fighting. Of course it is also partly due to my own personal view that the majority of changes done in a nation should not effect the people negative.... so yeah, I am not a Borgare.

I do how ever have no problem with if the homebase of the unit was named Skjaldborg, because for one, it does make sort of sence... a fortress, a shield, protection, and all that.

Hmm, next thing. This has actually been on my mind since it was first brought up. Dragonslayers, "Drakdräparna". The part that I have been sort of thinking about is the fact that the FRR's emblem has a Dragon on it. And yes, I know it might look like a snake, or serpent or something like that. But back in those old days, words that ment Dragon, did often also refer to serpents/snakes... and vise versa. I belive that the creature on FRR's emblem is supposed to represent the "Lindorm"... or "Lindworm" as it's apperantly named in English. "Orm" in Swedish means "Snake".

From wikipedia: "Lindworm (cognate with Old Norse linnormr 'constrictor snake', Norwegian linnorm 'dragon', Swedish, lindorm, Danish, lindorm 'serpent', German Lindwurm 'dragon') in British heraldry, is a technical term for a wingless bipedal dragon often with a venomous bite."

I clearly know that the Dragon in Drakdräparna referes to Kurita, and I am certain the people of FRR would also know this. It's just that I of course know about this serpent/dragon thing... and it seems almost like it could become a double meaning... I sometimes tend to probably over think things though... so this might be one of those times.

Next thing: Colour wise, I feel some of the colours are a bit to dark. Vikings generaly prefered a little bit brighter colours when they where able to dye or paint stuff. But yeah, I guess being to bright and colourful might not be that appealing, and nor should it. I just feel they might be a tad bit dark, atleast in the sence of being the emblems for the merc unit.

Other then these things... I like the concept of it all.

I have been looking for other old norse words that could maybe be used where ever (I tend to do that every now and then when I make characters in games and I feel like the character should be more Vkingy). Here are a few of them. A lot (read as "most") of the information comes either directly or indirectly from Wikipedia, so easy to find, I have edited or rewriten some of it.

Einherjar/Einhärjar: (First is the old norse it seems, second is the Swedish one) These are the spirits of Viking warriors that where brought to Valhalla (Valhall in Swedish) by the Valkyries... if they had died a brave/honourable/heroic/etc death. They spend all of their days training/fighting to prepare for Ragnarök. And then they spend all evening eating and drinking until they are full. This word would maybe be a bit of a clishé though, don't know how often it is used by otheres, and maybe it might already be taken by the time MWO has been launched. Einherjar basicly mean "Lone Fighters", might be other meanings out there, but I do not recal having encountered other versions.

Vigridr: "In Norse mythology, Vígríðr, is a large field foretold to host a battle between the forces of the gods and the forces of Surtr as part of the events of Ragnarök... The 'Poetic Edda' briefly mentions the field as where the two forces will battle, whereas the 'Prose Edda' features a fuller account, foretelling that it is the location of the future death of several deities (and their enemies) before the world is engulfed in flames and reborn." This is the battlefield where the Einherjar are said to go and fight on when Ragnarök starts. I really like this word, both because of what is said to happend there, and because the word sounds cool, and because I have found it very useful and easy to use it as a character name (both as first and last name). Vigridr mean: "battle-surge" or "place on which battle surges".

Oskipnir: With the exeption of the last two sentences in Vigridr (why I like the word Vigridr, and the meaning of the word), the entire explenation for what Vigridr is, applyes for this as well, since this is another name for that battlefield. I do how ever really like the word, but mostly because it sounds sort of cool. The meaning of Oskipnir is widely debated, I guess becaise they are not compleatly sure, but it's proposed meaning is: "the (not yet) created", "not made" or "mismade".

I could probably find more, but these where the ones I initialy had in my head because it was not that long ago I was looking for names and found these. And I feel that this post is already to big, so I will leave it with this final thing, partly about why I choice these the 3 above names. I will maybe write more names later if I encounter something.

Since I first read your posts about the emblems, and then the next one with more emblems and names and such... and my own thoughts on some of the names you suggested etc... an idea started to sort of form. I thought that what if part of the Merc Units name was Einherjar, or the entire name was just Einherjar or maybe Einherjarna. I did also consider that it could be used as the "thing" the members of the units are refered to as, rather then maybe soldiers or something. Although, that would make it hard to "raise in ranks" then, so maybe top officer ranks could be Einherjar, but even then I still prefer it as being the entire units name... even if it is clishé. Anyway this is the highest level of honour a mere human could get in the Norse Paganism basicly, to have been choicen by the gods to fight for them at Ragnarök. They also spend a lot of time preparing for Ragnarök which is important to my entire thought... continue reading to find out why.

The choice of Vigridr and Oskipnir is obviously because the Einherjar are connected to it, but also because it seems to be the main battlefield for where Ragnarök will take place, and as such I was thinking that they could maybe refer to something for this merc unit. Maybe even somehow refer to the "battle with Kurita" that has happend. And I mean, "battle-surge" does not sound that bad right? So it sounds like maybe a pretty awesome battle tactics, or maybe it could be something else... I don't know, possabilityes are many. But then I realized that with those two, and the part about Einherjarnas preperations and all that, they could maybe somehow refer to the fact that this Merc Unit could maybe be taking all these contracts against not only Kurita or Steiner (since they are the biggest borders to FRR), but against all other houses as well.

This to "in world", or "in game" or what ever, sort of indicate that this merc unit are maybe not actual mercs at the core, but rather some kind of "secretly" FRR government mlitary group training thing, to be able to fight against all other houses more effectivly. So that IF there ever was a time when we got invaded by other houses, we would have this merc unit with people with the knowledge to fight each house, that could help FRR against them, and train FRR soldiers/MechWarriors how to as well. You know simmilar to how the "Wolf's Dragoons" came to the Inner Sphere and worked for and fought against each of the major houses to gather intel on everything, including how they fight. In this FRR merc units case though, they would only fight agaisnt, and not work for, the other houses, but still close enough. And speaking of the Clan... read on...

Not to mention that "the (not yet) created" (etc) meaning from Oskipnir could totaly somehow be a (meta?) reference to the Clan invasion... to the fact that even if we as the gamers already know about the clan invation (like we do about Ragnarök, and how the people back then already knew about it)... it has technicly actually not happend yet, atleast not in the sence of MWO. I don't know why but I REALLY like that idea, I am actually smiling as I am writing this particular paragraph.

Anyway... that is all... for now. I think I have writen my biggest post yet... or is that just because I have Dihm's entire post in it as well?

[Grimm Wulf]

Skwisgaar Skwigelf, on 13 December 2011 - 12:38 PM, said:

There are too many people (and I'm not discluding myself from this group) who say or post without even thinking about what they said or posted so the fact that you take your time to say what you need to say the way you want to say it says a lot.

Sorry to have confused everybody with that sentence.

Grimm Wulf for Company Historian!

*can almost feel his brain twisting and turning as it tries to unravel the sentence*

*with clearly fake British accent, with a Swedish accent over it*

"I say... that's not cricket!"

*ends fake british accent, and goes back to his regular English... with a Swedish accent on it*

Thank you! All it just comes down to is not wanting to sounding "dumb", and it "sounding" and "flowing" right and correctly (or as close to as possible).

I do think I manage to unravel what you said though, I just thought of imaginary commas being placed through out where I thought they might have been. Not that I actually think I use commas compleatly correct, still though, it helped.

Edit: Gaaah... this is the 5th time, in 5 minutes, I edit this freakin post... see, this is what happend when I don't do most of that BEFOR I post the message.

Edited by Grimm Wulf, 13 December 2011 - 06:26 PM.

[Diablo48]

Grimm Wulf, on 13 December 2011 - 12:23 PM, said:

Thanks... honestly I am not used to people actually seeming to read my posts. But hey, maybe many do but don't normaly actually say it. I have just always got the feeling that most people facepalms every time I post something. Heck, even I do that at times. Because even though I am the one who writes them, I don't actually like that I write just as much as I do.

It is always nice to read intelligent comments from other people who know what they are talking about and take the time to make sure they are coming across clearly.

Quote

Nr1: Knights. To me there is not really much else that could beat that (and I don't mean in a combat sence, pr the nobleman part, or the honour system either, I more just mean in a general "coolness" sence). I love the whole thing with sword+Shield+Plate Armour. The horse and lance is also cool, but it's the 3 other parts I really like. Swords are clearly my favorit types of weapons (the european types that is). When ever I play a game (fantasy and/or middle ages like,) that is pretty much always my aim, to get my character the best 1h sword, heavy armour and shield (I rarely use 2 handed melee weapons).

Considering your knowledge of history I am surprised by this comment. The point of plate armor was to allow people to wear the shield instead of carrying it which frees up the off hand for use with a two handed weapon. This means when we are talking about dismounted combat (because I focus on the swordplay with my German Longsword training) you would usually be looking at a hand-and-a-half or full two handed sword because the armor will protect you from most attacks, although half-sword techniques and some axes/hammers are still effective.

Quote

How ever, in sci-fi/future/present day settings, the part about melee and ranged combat changes for me. Then I rather play as a compleat ranged character, and only use melee if I really have to. Feel the same about magic if it's in the game. I usualy prefer an assault rifle (with scope if possible), rifle (again with scope if possible), or sniper rifle (which normaly do have a scope). And if it is available, I do go with the heavy armour here as well. Gameplay wise I am still totally a sneaker, doing the same as above. Except that the end result is usualy a "oneshot, headshot, sniping from as large of a range as possible" thing. No matter what the weapon is, pistol to sniper rifle. I rarely use any kind of explosive weaponry, grenades, mines, traps, flamers or any other "fancy/flashy" weaponry. A regular solid slug spitting weapon for me thanks (or what ever is the "regular type of thing" in the game). In the MechWarrior/MechCommander games I have tended to go for the full laser/energy weapons setups though, due to the "no ammunition limit", made more sence to me then risk running out of ammo.

I personally go the opposite direction with my preference being shock and awe in close combat with automatic weapons, grenade launchers, and flamethrowers, although I am not a huge fan of shotguns. I also tend to favor armor over speed, however both are necessary for a good brawler.

Edited by Diablo48, 14 December 2011 - 04:36 AM.

[Dihm]

Edit: Removed and placed in a new thread about this potential merc unit. Figured it would be better than muddling up this one.

Edited by Dihm, 14 December 2011 - 05:59 AM.

[Grimm Wulf]

Diablo48, on 14 December 2011 - 04:36 AM, said:

It is always nice to read intelligent comments from other people who know what they are talking about and take the time to make sure they are coming across clearly.

I guess. Honastly, I really don't do it for "you" (you as in everybody else that is not me... ). As in, I don't write the way I do for the benefit of the people who might read it really. But rather for my own benefit, somehow... if that makes sence. I guess it's a, atleast in my mind, "what I wrote sounds right to me... now I could care less what people actually think about it". So, even if I care how my posts sounds, it's more that I care about how it sounds to me, rather then to other people. Man... the brain really works in weired ways doesn't it.

Diablo48, on 14 December 2011 - 04:36 AM, said:

Considering your knowledge of history I am surprised by this comment. The point of plate armor was to allow people to wear the shield instead of carrying it which frees up the off hand for use with a two handed weapon. This means when we are talking about dismounted combat (because I focus on the swordplay with my German Longsword training) you would usually be looking at a hand-and-a-half or full two handed sword because the armor will protect you from most attacks, although half-sword techniques and some axes/hammers are still effective.

First of... my supposed "knowledge" of history is... semi-fake? Because my knowledge of stuff is mainly in a general sence, sometimes a bit stronger, often somewhat vague, and on a fair amount of things at best faint, and a lot that I just don't know. You know, remembering that "something happend somewhere around this time", or "there was this guy who did this thing"... or "I have a faint memory of somehting at something with something" There is not very much that I fully remember that "In the date of ****-**-** King ******** the *** of ********* declard war on ********, in a wish to etc etc etc." (incert topic, person, place, stuff of your own choicing anywhere). And no, I was not censored here, I wrote the stars my self. Dates and names are the two main things that something like 99% of them I don't actually remember, I just have a general idea of the rough time when it probably happend, and a rough idea of a person (as in, king, general, soldier, man, woman, political views, etc).

The full truth to the matter is that: If I do not know something, and it comes up, I will go and read up on it (as best as I can... wikipedia tends to be the place, which I have stated in previous posts, but I tend to keep that in mind that is might not be fully true, or not the entire truth, or not even everything there is to know about the subject), to atleast get some sence of it. Sometimes I forget to mention this, other times I mention it. If I do know about it, or have a vague recollection of it, a vague idea of it, I will still go and read about it to refresh my memory. And on the rare occations where I feel I do almost fully know about it (usualy minus the dates and names of people), I will still refresh my memory about it again. But for the most part, most of what I know, is in the catagory of "some knowledge" to a "vague memory of having read something about it somewhere at some point". Usualy it's this "refreshing of the memory" that opens up my memory to it (still minus the dates and names of many things).

It's simmilar to how my memory seem to works with video games, if a person asks me "how do I get to X location, and how do I get weapon Y from there?". I might remember it and be able to tell you about it if it's an big event. But anything not big or really memerable, and I will only have a vaguely memory of it at best, but not enough to actually tell the person how to in most cases, just give them a vague description. But set me down infront of the game and replay it my self, I will almost instinctivly run the right way, do the right procedures, and have the weapon in my hands. But not really sure as to how I remembered how to get there and do it. Like riding a bike, how many people would actually be able to tell you how they are able to ride a bike again, after 10 years of not having riden one.

Anyway, on top of this brain with a memory that more seem to work in broad strokes, and the general idea of things. Here is where the main part about the "fake" comes in. If I am unable to read up on what the subject is (for example like in school when you had a test). Then how do I remember, and how do I answer if I don't actually remember what the answer is supposed to be? Well... sometimes I just say that, don't know, sorry. But often I will look at what I know about it, look at what I know about the time around when this happends, and look at what ever else I might know about what ever that might be useful... and I sort of "create", if you will. I think about what would be the most logical, most obvious, most resonable thing about this. There are numerous classes I have been in, with numerous tests done where I could actually not compleatly remember, but I could create an answer that I felt would most likely to be true, or felt right or what ever. And I would get anything from full points, to reduced points out of full, or half a point or what ever, because I was usualy in the right vein of the actual answer.

Aaaaanyway... back to sheild armour and stuff... if you mean "wear the shield" as in the armour being the "shield", then to a degree I could agree to that. If you ment wear the shield as in "strap it to the arm instead of holding it in your hand" then I don't. But I doubt you ment the last one.

Just because the creation of the plate armour might have been to sort of be able to "wear the shield", would not really suggest that they neccessarily would want to not use the shield anymore. Here is one faint memory I have, something about footsoldiers in Germany, or there abouts, using the armour and 2-handed swords to be able to get close to units of... not compleatly sure about which weaponry... but pikes, or halbards or other such long ranged melee weaponry. Where these soldiers in plate armour would be able to get close, and then with the 2 handed swords reduce their weaponry to nothing but long sticks, at which point they would become virtually useless against most, and the 2-handers could move in and finish the job. Probably not an "origin story" to the plate armour... but just as a memory of where a regular shield would probably not have been the optimal equipment for the work. After having writen some of the below paragraph some other memory came to me, that this might have been an reaction to that these long ranged melee weapons became very effective against cavalry, so this might have been a later development to deal with that.

But if you now look at if that enemy unit had been a unit with shields and a one handed weapon. Even though the 2 handers would be somewhat effective during the first initial attack, I belive that the unit with the shield would be at a slight advantage, unless the initial attack was unusualy successful. Because the person with the 1 handed weapon would be atleast a little bit more manuverable (especialy if he had lighter armour). And even if 2 handers are not as unwieldy as most people think, I belive there is enough of a difference for it to make a difference on the outcome of the battle. At this point, for the person in the plate armour to sort of regain the advantage, it would be better for him to have a regular shield as well, with a 1 handed weapon in his other hand. Because it's much easier for him to deal with the enemy up close and personal. Where as a 2-handed weapon needs a bit more space to be able to be used to it's full potential. Even though the 1-hander might in many cases be somewhat ineffective against plate armour, the 1-hander does not actually have to do a killing blow instantly, he just need to get the plate armour down on the ground to gain a huge advantage. So a shield for the plate armour guy would be an extra tool to make sure that does not happend.

It's compleatly a by case to case basis really. What might be true in one moment, might not be true in the next. Based on the fact that anything can happend in battle.

If I where to only play my character by historical accounts, how things where used and what not... Then I hightly doubt my full plate armoured Viking Knight would ever be sneaking around like a thief in the night... let alone accually succeeding in doing so as well for that matter (I have numerous screenshots from him assassinating enemies by having snuck up behind them in his full plate armour). In this sence, and in games in general, I tend to not be to bothered with realism. I like realism, and I would like for a lot to be as realistic as possible, but I don't let it get in the way of my fun because it's not like it really would have been. Besides, I really like the extra protection the shield gives me as well. No matter if it's just an arbitrary defence number added to your defence, or directionaly based where you actually need to block manually for it to have an effect. I also feel the 1-handed sword makes my character a lot more versatile then 2-handed weapons. And of course the 1h sword it my opinion is more versatile then other 1h weapons as well.

Diablo48, on 14 December 2011 - 04:36 AM, said:

I personally go the opposite direction with my preference being shock and awe in close combat with automatic weapons, grenade launchers, and flamethrowers, although I am not a huge fan of shotguns. I also tend to favor armor over speed, however both are necessary for a good brawler.

*nods* all of it is useful, and effective, if used right at least.

In general I tend to be sort of a calculating defensive gamer, who at the right time will unleash the "unintelligent", but instinctual, viciously violante hard hitting attacks/counter attacks. Depending on genre these things take their own form, so "defencive" does not need to always mean just blocking, it can be sneaking as well. In Fighting games I was the defensive counter attacker (SFII: Ryu, Tekken: Paul, Soul Blade/Calibre: Hwang... Hwang in Soul Blade was the best version, after that they changed his fighting style). In FPS games (and simmilar, like Mass Effect, or Fallout 3/New Vegas etc) I am the sneaking precision shot (weapon type irrelevant... I will "snipe" with a rocket launche if that is all I have available at the time ), with the best heavy armour available if the game has armour. In cRPG's (Fallout 1, 2, Tactics for example), same as FPS. JRPG's (Final Fantasy, Suikoden, etc), full out attacker (mainly with weapons, rarely with magic unless it's pat of their regular attack), "defence" in this case refering to equipment that raise defence and health, and/or all chars having healing powers, and/or all chars having access to healing potions, etc. Warhammer 40K/Fantasy Battles, defencive gamer with certain units moving to try and charge (I played Blood Angels and Bretonnians). Bloodbowl... on offensive turns (when I have the ball) ehm, manouvering people into possitions for a passing game... defensive turns (when opponent have ball), running up screens the enemy has to go through, and sending in random models to try and knock the ball lose (the stuff that is hit and miss... mostly miss )... main team: Human Team. MechWarrior... yeah I tend to be a bit... "attack is the best defence" with this. So far I have tended to do the things that many of the hardcore MW gamers really dislike people doing, boating lasors on the biggest mech I can get my hands on... but since I only played singleplayer it did not effect anyone. And in MWLL you of course have no mechlab... yet... but I was a bit "chargy"... even in mech's that where supposed to be long ranged mechs... Like the Hollander with Gauss.

[Dihm]

After a certain point, basically when you get fully articulating plate armor, you do see the loss of the shield (Henry VIII timeframe off the top of my head). There's just no point in the shield by then, since you're so well protected. I've gotten rusty in my armor knowledge over the past year or two, I tended to focus more on the 1300-1400 plate and mail set ups anyway.

[Grimm Wulf]

Even when on horse with lance and everything? Or just when on foot?

*ghasps*

A post with just one sentence/line in reply? Or well... 3 now with this line... still though.

[Dihm]

Heavy cavalry charges were actually a rather rare thing by the late middle ages (1300-1500) do to the preponderance of large scale battles, advances in infantry tactics (polearms and the like dedicated to countering the advantage of heavy plate used by ragged commonfolk, blech!), and generally battlefields that just didn't work well for the horses. The vast majority of the "heavy cavalry" during the period it was most prevalent would most likely have been in mail, and yes, carrying a shield (a heater). The shield was more for protection from other cavalry, since they'd be spending most of their time hacking down at lightly armored infantry.

As armor technology progressed, the "arms race" lead to knights and other heavily armored troops needed more than a sword if they wanted to do any damage to each other. Thus, you start seeing the two-handed weapons come in to play, requiring the loss of the shield. The pole-axe (fun videos!) for example, is a beautiful example of a knightly weapon designed to kill other knights. The design of swords during this period changed dramatically as well to reflect the armor they were competing against.

[Dihm]

I think the history discussion broke the FRR