167 replies to this topic

[sweetlime]

More and more feeling like I'm gonna be a scout. Maybe not always fully appreciated when I'm there, but greatly missed when I'm not.

[unsafe]

Targeting individual modules or Mech's parts?

[The Bad Charlie]

InnerSphereNews, on 04 January 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:

• Units – Any non-BattleMech present on the battlefield.

HOW DO I SLEEP NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kmieciu]

These are the best examples of information warfare found in MWO:

1) The Noob Scanner: write "Press Alt+F4 for third person view" in public chat and count how many disconnects
2) The Backseat Driver: dead teammates inform you on how much you suck because they died and you`re still alive, obviously.
3) The Vengeful Dead: dead teammates relay your position to the enemy, so the round ends faster

Edited by Kmieciu, 19 November 2012 - 02:17 AM.

[Greg Hudson]

Thks for the laugh of the day!

[Felicitatem Parco]

I thought Information Warfare is when you have to explain how Jenners aren't supposed to gather intel while standing motionless on the top of a ridgeline ...?

[Kaemon]

Prosperity Park, on 03 December 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

I thought Information Warfare is when you have to explain how Jenners aren't supposed to gather intel while standing motionless on the top of a ridgeline ...?

It's all the stupid paperwork we have to fill out, what enemy mechs are where, variants, load-outs, those rec for fire support forms don't fill themselves out you know....

[Spirit of the Wolf]

Yeah, you'd think that by 3049 we'd have figured out how to make some computers that work instead of just using a fax machine...

[shotokan5]

yah, and also the paperwork or faxing has to be in triplicate . Any errors will have points deducted. sort of like army.

[GrabbleRus]

Kmieciu, on 19 November 2012 - 02:17 AM, said:

These are the best examples of information warfare found in MWO:

1) The Noob Scanner: write "Press Alt+F4 for third person view" in public chat and count how many disconnects
2) The Backseat Driver: dead teammates inform you on how much you suck because they died and you`re still alive, obviously.
3) The Vengeful Dead: dead teammates relay your position to the enemy, so the round ends faster

4) The Pro Backseat Driver: you happily tell your teammates that you finally killed someone from behind and they inform you about teamkills.

[Cyrionthewise]

Sounds good. I like it!!!

[Pando]

Awesome!

[ltwally]

Prosperity Park, on 03 December 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

I thought Information Warfare is when you have to explain how Jenners aren't supposed to gather intel while standing motionless on the top of a ridgeline ...?

So point a Gauss Rifle at him and teach him not to do that. These kids need to learn better some how...

[Spirit of the Wolf]

ltwally, on 11 December 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

So point a Gauss Rifle at him and teach him not to do that. These kids need to learn better some how...

And nothing teaches better for jenner pilots than finding out that jenners may go nearly 150kph, but 40 LRMs still hit when you don't have ECM.

[Tomas Devere]

I'm not against the ECM in the fights, but I want BAP and NARC to be used more as well as increasing the range of the TAG beyond 750 m.

[ltwally]

The mechs that you should see sporting BAP and Narc the most are light mechs. The 150 kph jenners and 140kph ravens.

Yet you don't see that. Why? Because BAP and Narc simply are not worth their weight for a light mech pilot.

BAP needs better range. Much better range. It'd also be nice if it could detect ECM fields and give the player a warning, much like incoming missiles do: "Warning: hostile ECM approaching"

Narc has crap range, is dumb-fire only, and transmits for only 20 seconds. All of that needs changed. Double or triple its range, give it homing ability like S-SRM, and make it last 60 seconds. Mitigate the duration with the possibility of it being knocked off when the location its on gets hit.

[DocBach]

We were promised a deep Information Warfare pillar where we'd have several different pieces of equipment that all provided an edge over our opponents and the other equipment, working against each other. What we got was ECM, ECM, and ECM, partially because of the fact that it was implemented with way more features then it ever had in any iteration of Battletech or MechWarrior, partially because implementation of other pieces of Information Warfare is so lackluster; ECM needs to be toned down and other components like Beagle and Narc need to be toned up.

ECM should not provide stealth 'Mech ability to an entire team
(Total Warfare, pg 134): "The ECM does not affect other scanning or targeting devices such as TAG and targeting computers"

ECM should not make missile locks impossible:
(Total Warfare, pg 134): "ECM blocks the effects of Artemis IV fire control systems. Artemis-equipped launchers may still be fired as normal missiles through ECM." and "Missiles equipped to home in on an attached Narc pod lose the Cluster Hits Table bonus for that system if the pods themselves lie within the bubble. The Narc launcher itself is not affected by ECM."

The previous rules state that missile attacks occur as normal, just not augmented with guidance from their advanced systems. Under no rulesets does it say that standard Guardian ECM negates the effect of Streak missile systems.

In disrupt mode ECM should have the following abilities:
-Disrupt Beagle's ability to detect shut down 'Mechs (Total Warfare, pg 134)
"Active probes cannot penetrate the ECM's area of effect. The probing unit would notice it is being jammed, however"

-Negate the tight groupings of Artemis-enhanced missiles (Total Warfare, pg 134)
"ECM blocks the effects of Artemis IV fire control systems. Artemis-equipped launchers may be fired as normal missiles through the ECM, but they lose the Cluster Hits Table Bonus"


-Negate the tight groupings of Narc-enhanced missiles, as well as prevent indirect fire on a Narc'd 'Mech without LOS (more on this later)
(Total Warfare, pg 134): "Missiles equipped to home in on an attached Narc pod lose the Cluster Hits Table bonus for that system if the pods themselves lie within the bubble. The Narc launcher itself is not affected by ECM."

-Prevent spotters in the ECM bubble, or on the other side of, with line of sight passing through a bubble from transmitting target data to team mates outside the bubble
(Total Warfare, Pg 134) "ECM has the effect of cutting off any C3 equipped unit from its network." Even though we don't officially have C3 installed on our 'Mechs, the way that our units communicate target data is what the C3 network does effectively. Being inside the ECM bubble should disrupt your ability to send data back to the rest of your team.

-Make target ID slower to acquire, but not block locks or targeting completely
(Maximum Tech, pg 54) "Though ECM systems can prevent a sensor probe from identifying a unit, they produce powerful distinctive electronic signatures." So sensors know something is out there, it just can't identify it or provide target information like the paper doll.

-Generate ghost targets in a seperate mode from disrupt/counter - bring up the command map with B in ghost target mode and plot a false radar signal that shows up like a target shrouded by ECM - target-able by R, but no target data available
(Tactical Operations, pg 100): "The ECM suite can be tuned to generate "ghost targets" that may affect the ability of enemy units to properly target friendly units. The ECM loses its normal function when used this way."

-Run counter ECM mode
(Tactical Operations, pg 99): "An ECM suite can be tuned to act as electronic counter-countermeasures (ECCM) in order to negate enemy ECM systems."


Beagle should:

-Provide 360 degree scanning and targeting within a 150 meter bubble

(Total Warfare, pg 129): "An active probe can detect any hidden 'Mech if the concealed unit lies within the probe's range." Like ECM, Beagle projects a scanning bubble of 5 hexes around it, equating to 150m of range

-Detect shutdown 'Mechs outside of ECM bubbles
(Total Warfare, pg 129): "An active probe can detect any hidden 'Mech if the concealed unit lies within the probe's range."

-Negate ECM's target acquisition slowdown while outside the bubble

-Identify ECM Ghost targets as being false targets
-Identify users the boundaries of the ECM bubble if they encounter ECM within Beagle's 150m scan bubble
(Total Warfare, pg 134)
"Active probes cannot penetrate the ECM's area of effect. The probing unit would notice it is being jammed, however"

The Narc beacon was rendered completely worthless when PGI failed to include its most important perk (Total Warfare, pg 139) which states:

"Once a Narc pod is attached to a target, all Narc-equipped missiles may be fired indirectly at a target without a spotter"

By this writing, we should be able to maintain locks on targets affected by Narc even if they go behind terrain and cut off line of sight, thus Narc should:

-Tighten LRM/SRM grouping on targets in line of sight
-Allow targets marked by Narc to remain targeted even when LOS is lost so LRM attacks can continue indirectly without spotters
-Last for either an extended duration than current or until the location the Narc hit is destroyed

A couple simple changes would make all of the advanced EW equipment viable, while remaining faithful to the source material without being game breaking or overpowering. ECM would still be useful to take, especially for protection against LRM spotters, as it would prevent them from sending target data to their LRM boats, protect you from Narc which would actually be a useful item if it kept enemies lit up on radar for indirect fire without a spotter like the rules say it does, and give Beagle expanded roles like countering ECM outside of the bubble (inspired by detection rules from MaxTech and Tactical Operations), and serving as a warning system that you are inside the bubble propper, which would be useful for spotters trying to Narc targets or transmit data.

The above changes would make information warfare have counters to each other, beyond just ECM, ECM, ECM. It would make it everything a useful addition to a team, but not an absolute necessity or gamebreaker.

[ltwally]

DocBach, on 30 December 2012 - 10:05 AM, said:

We were promised a deep Information Warfare pillar where we'd have several different pieces of equipment that all provided an edge over our opponents and the other equipment, working against each other. What we got was ECM, ECM, and ECM, partially because of the fact that it was implemented with way more features then it ever had in any iteration of Battletech or MechWarrior, partially because implementation of other pieces of Information Warfare is so lackluster; ECM needs to be toned down and other components like Beagle and Narc need to be toned up.
....

more stuff. lots more stuff....

+1

Your post was pretty long, but was entirely worth the read. I recommend reposting it, verbatim, in every ECM thread out there, in Suggestions, and in Patch feedback.

PS. I'm serious. You've got a good feel for how things should be. Spread that far and wide. Make it a topic of discussion all over this forum.

[DocBach]

I think the buffs we see ECM getting is to increase its usefulness as the equipment it is made to counter has been implemented with way less features than they are suppose to have, combined with a knee-jerk quick fix for people upset about LRM's and streak missiles.

If other assets of information warfare were more useful and deep, ECM would be useful in its own right by countering those, without needing stealth fields and missile lock breaking tacked on to it.

[ltwally]

DocBach, on 30 December 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

If other assets of information warfare were more useful and deep, ECM would be useful in its own right by countering those, without needing stealth fields and missile lock breaking tacked on to it.

Exactly.

Though Beagle & Narc need bringing up to snuff, I do feel Artemis is a good place, currently.