83 replies to this topic

[Demi-Precentor Konev]

I've been gaming since I was a child and each year things only get better. I play better games, for longer hours, and experience more immersion than I did when I was young. Steam means I don't have to have messaging and voice systems open. It means I can keep all of my gaming contacts in one place (and they're not necessarily 'online only', half of my Steam Friends I know from 'meatspace'). It means I don't have to keep boxes and discs and papers with CD keys. Streamlining these processes is usually considered a 'good thing'.

DRM is bad, yes. Data collection is (not as) bad, yes. But boycotting Steam isn't going to keep you safe from those things. Requiring an internet connection and inputting codes for registering a game is just as feasible to do with hard copies of titles and is already regularly implemented. As of right now (7:30AM EST) there are 3 million Steam users connected. A simple banner or mention for MWO on the store page - even just listing it under the Free Games category - would be a massive boost in numbers. At the end of the day, if PGI (god forbid, it certainly seems unlikely) wants to collect your data and ream your rights as a consumer of their game - they don't need Steam to do it or make it easy. The trade-off of increased exposure and the streamlining process of online transactions and community management seems like a no-brainer to me.

[Egomane]

lahyenne, on 06 January 2012 - 04:35 AM, said:

I've been gaming since I was a child and each year things only get better. I play better games, for longer hours, and experience more immersion than I did when I was young.

Ok, now that I know yours, look at my perspective. (Warning: Wall of text coming)

When I was young a Game most likely had no multiplayer option what so ever. No matter if it was a console or PC game. If we had a multiplayer aspect it was cooperative on a single monitor. I played those games for my entertainment and to achive highscores the others could'nt break. I remember the face of my dad, when I told him I had a highscore of 999.999 at PacMan on our atari 2600 console. Unbeatable, because the game couldn't display higher numbers. So I come from singleplayer games only. If I wanted a multiplayer game we took out a board game like monopoly or some such.

Games evolved and became more complex, but they still remained single player mostly. When the era of PC-Games started to roll in the late 80/early nineties, single player games had a game time of 40 hours or more (sometimes far more, in the range of weeks even) to complete them. Adventures the sole exception, but only if you had a walkthrough, as they where much harder to solve then todays RPGs. Nothing changed from my early days.

Then came the time of the real time strategy games with multiplayer aspects. In these games, the single player part was still dominant, the multiplayer part just an add on, so to speak. Lan-Partys started to grow. I made some for me and my friends and we had a blast with StarCraft, Command&Conquer, Total Annihilation and a few other games.

Then the internet came as an integral part of multiplayer. Since then, single player game time has been reduced to a shadow of its former self. Lots of game genres died and were replaced by endless series of clones. New concepts are risque and get no support from publishers.

Todays games have between 6 and 10 hours singleplayer content, if they have it at all. Storys are as lifeless as a dinosaur in a museum. Multiplayer is the new hype. But it's not my hype.

Still, singleplayer gaming is my type of gaming, and I believe a lot of us oldtimers miss the days when we bought a game and knew it had a real story and a good atmosphere to it's singleplayer parts. Today it's hard to find a game to play, the short time that it gives you to do so, in SP, that doesn't need to go online none the less. In the eyes of todays generation I'm probably a fossil. But at least I'm fighting for what I believe in until I die out. MW:O is an exception in that it combines one of my favorite board games (Battletech) and one of my favorite but mostly dead gaming genres (simulators), that's why I gave MPBT:3025 a chance and that'S why I will give it MW:O as well.

For Multiplayer, up until today, I will meet with my friends once month, to play board and card games together. We would do that much more often if we weren't living all over the country. I'm much more closer to them that way, then any voice chat could ever achieve.

lahyenne, on 06 January 2012 - 04:35 AM, said:

Steam means I don't have to have messaging and voice systems open. It means I can keep all of my gaming contacts in one place (and they're not necessarily 'online only', half of my Steam Friends I know from 'meatspace'). It means I don't have to keep boxes and discs and papers with CD keys. Streamlining these processes is usually considered a 'good thing'.

Streamlining is considered a good thing yes. But if the streamlinig goes so far that it excludes every other type of look at it, it's no longer usefull, it's harming the future development. And that is what todays gaming industrie is doing, and steam is one of the tools responsible for todays situation.

I, for one, like my shiny game boxes in my shelfs, I know the phone numbers of my friends if I want to talk to them, and I don't need a voice chat in games. Even in fast paced ones! Does it mean, that those who use those chats can achive more then I do? Yes, maybe! Do I care? Not a bit! It's a game for god sake, not a competition. And I know I can stand my ground against most of those who say: "It's an essential part of the game and you need it to win."

lahyenne, on 06 January 2012 - 04:35 AM, said:

DRM is bad, yes. Data collection is (not as) bad, yes.

No, it's not as bad. It's worse!

lahyenne, on 06 January 2012 - 04:35 AM, said:

But boycotting Steam isn't going to keep you safe from those things. Requiring an internet connection and inputting codes for registering a game is just as feasible to do with hard copies of titles and is already regularly implemented.

Boycotting steam/origin/PSN and such will not keep me safe. You are right about it. There is no 100 % safety. But it will keep me a lot safer. I'm not using a mobile phone, I'm not using facebook or other social platforms except forums (and of those only a few selected), and I'm not going to start to do such things any time soon.

I also do not register my games with anyone. If that means to use other ways, such as a crack, to play my game so be it. And no, that I use cracks for my games doesn't contradict my previous words about safety and privacy. Not every crack is a virus or a trojan. As I monitor my System and my network closly I will notice unusual data packets. The only software that is registered is my operating system. I do legaly own a copy of every game that is installed on my PC, but no online system will ever know that I do.

lahyenne, on 06 January 2012 - 04:35 AM, said:

As of right now (7:30AM EST) there are 3 million Steam users connected. A simple banner or mention for MWO on the store page - even just listing it under the Free Games category - would be a massive boost in numbers.

And I already said, that if it's an additional way of marketing for the game it's all fine with me. But to make it steam exclusive is just bad. And I explained why above.

lahyenne, on 06 January 2012 - 04:35 AM, said:

At the end of the day, if PGI (god forbid, it certainly seems unlikely) wants to collect your data and ream your rights as a consumer of their game - they don't need Steam to do it or make it easy.

They can only collect the data I'm willing to give them. And I will not give them much. If I notice they start to collect more without my consent I will sue them.


Don't take it the wrong way. I don't see your way of seeing the big picture as wrong. It's different. I accept it. So please accept that there are people who think otherwise then you do and that may have good reasons for it as well. You don't need to agree with them, but to listen to them.
You made your point, of how great you believe steam to be, clear for three times now. We heard you and we told you our position. There is no need to defend it any further. For both sides. We both agree on parts of the argument, that advertisment on steam would be a good idea and that it's also not wrong to use it as a distribution source. We only disagree on the point of if it should be the "only" distribution source.

Edited by Egomane, 06 January 2012 - 06:00 AM.

[Barantor]

Steam would be a great source of distribution since I know several people that would only download it if it was via steam since they have gotten malicious files from small mmo companies direct downloads before.

I also know that the bandwidth that steam can crank out is the best I've had as far as a direct download of anything and is faster than any peer to peer downloads too.

[Gattling Fenn]

Part of Egomanes argument is inherently flawed. He sites how a lot of people do not like to or are not able use digital distributors, the primary reason being the use of credit and debit cards.

MechWarrior Online is F2P...

Just thought I'd bring that up.

And in regards to steam using DRM, they are BY FAR the most lenient and wide spread digital distributor, they were founded by Valve, a studio with a long history as a PC studio with a great deal of freedom. In fact Gabe Newell just recently came out and blasted SOPA (if you don't know what that is, go look it up) discussing how in a truly Capitalist system you beat your competition by providing something better at a better price point, you do not constrain your customers and abuse their support.

As a long time steam user and MW fan, I am a strong proponent of using steam. The community of hard core PC gamers is already there, there is a fined tuned chat and voice comm system built in to the software, and the ability to form groups of like minded individuals easily. Contrary to what people have been saying, Steam has a massive number of benefits, not the least of which is convenience, it's much nicer to have all your games digitally stored with one service than having to bounce between a countless number of them (I would know, I've used Gamers Gate, Impulse, and Origin as well).

On a final note. Do you REALLY want box sets of games? They now almost never even contain what made physical copies worth it 95% of the time, in depth manuals, back story, and perhaps some concept art. Now all physical copies of games typically contain, are a legal slip, and a couple page long control manual. So the only plus to physical copies is now virtually non existent. Now, shall we discuss the negatives of physical copies? Developers are forced to have middle men package and distribute their games, forcing them to concede more money to publishers and retailers, in turn they are forced to charge more. If we were still relying on physical copies F2P would not exist, simple as that. In addition, physical copies of games can be lost, damaged, and/or stolen.

There are many benefits to using Steam, people just don't like to acknowledge them because they either have some ingrained distaste for steam, or too much nostalgia fracking with their thought process.

[Demi-Precentor Konev]

That's really the only thing I miss about hardcopies... those beautiful manuals.

Tutorials? Hahahahaha! We never had tutorials. You had to read the book on the drive home from the game store while your parents asked you meaningless things like: "What would you like for dinner?" and "Did you get your homework done?"

Egomane, on 06 January 2012 - 05:53 AM, said:

Then the internet came as an integral part of multiplayer. Since then, single player game time has been reduced to a shadow of its former self. Lots of game genres died and were replaced by endless series of clones. New concepts are risque and get no support from publishers.

Todays games have between 6 and 10 hours singleplayer content, if they have it at all. Storys are as lifeless as a dinosaur in a museum. Multiplayer is the new hype. But it's not my hype.

Still, singleplayer gaming is my type of gaming, and I believe a lot of us oldtimers miss the days when we bought a game and knew it had a real story and a good atmosphere to it's singleplayer parts. Today it's hard to find a game to play, the short time that it gives you to do so, in SP, that doesn't need to go online none the less. In the eyes of todays generation I'm probably a fossil. But at least I'm fighting for what I believe in until I die out. MW:O is an exception in that it combines one of my favorite board games (Battletech) and one of my favorite but mostly dead gaming genres (simulators), that's why I gave MPBT:3025 a chance and that'S why I will give it MW:O as well.

You can still find a beefy SP game. It just requires hunting. But the magic number of modern games being 6-10 hours isn't just because the rise of online multi-player, it's also a result of broadened audiences. Gaming is getting more mainstream (and gamers are getting older). Appealing to that wider audience means asking players to contribute smaller amounts of time; a less-dedicated player wont be able to sink 40+ hours with his job/family/other hobbies/etc.

If you want some good single-player strategy games that will soak up hours of your time: check out Paradox/AGEOD. I've got 82 hours in EU3 and I'm still playing campaigns. As for refusing to register games and all that... hey man, good luck. The way things are going it is only going to continue making your gaming life more difficult. Can't beat 'em, join 'em, etc.

Edited by lahyenne, 06 January 2012 - 07:27 AM.

[Fiachdubh]

No. We cant have an online game that relies on pre scheduled matches and have it relying on third party software (steam) that is notorious for its problems. Sure make it available and allow micro transactions on steam that is bound to attract more players but do not integrate it.

I use steam quite a bit and it regularly causes problems. Your on TS with your unit and go to load steam and MWO before an important drop the last thing you need to see is "this game is unavailable try again later" or a steam crash followed by "you are already signed in on another computer please enter password" which just causes it to crash again. The most common problem is steam just refusing to load or connect in the first place. These happen regularly enough that people will miss drops if they have to sign into steam every time they want to play.

[Gattling Fenn]

Fiachdubh, on 06 January 2012 - 07:55 AM, said:

No. We cant have an online game that relies on pre scheduled matches and have it relying on third party software (steam) that is notorious for its problems. Sure make it available and allow micro transactions on steam that is bound to attract more players but do not integrate it.

I use steam quite a bit and it regularly causes problems. Your on TS with your unit and go to load steam and MWO before an important drop the last thing you need to see is "this game is unavailable try again later" or a steam crash followed by "you are already signed in on another computer please enter password" which just causes it to crash again. The most common problem is steam just refusing to load or connect in the first place. These happen regularly enough that people will miss drops if they have to sign into steam every time they want to play.

So basically what you're saying is "Steam is a bad choice because I don't want to be logged out in the middle of a game because I'm sharing my account, which I'm not supposed to be doing in the first place." Okay... your supposed "problems with steam", are clearly largely caused by how you actually use steam, which is the incorrect way, that makes your complaint completely and totally invalid, the pros hugely outweigh the cons here.

In addition, you spoke in all hypothetical's "you're on an important drop and you crash". Well okay, that's an example... but that can happen in ANY game, that isn't exclusive to the MW franchise. I have never had ANY of these problems with steam, and I've been using it since 2004, the fact that you share an account with someone and routinely get logged out, does not invalidate steam as a good platform to distribute this game on. It just makes you fracking ridiculous.

Edited by Gattling Fenn, 06 January 2012 - 08:47 AM.

[Egomane]

Gattling Fenn, on 06 January 2012 - 07:06 AM, said:

Part of Egomanes argument is inherently flawed. He sites how a lot of people do not like to or are not able use digital distributors, the primary reason being the use of credit and debit cards.

Don't twist my words. I never said that. I advise you to read more carefully before you reply.

Gattling Fenn, on 06 January 2012 - 07:06 AM, said:

As a long time steam user and MW fan, I am a strong proponent of using steam. The community of hard core PC gamers is already there, there is a fined tuned chat and voice comm system built in to the software, and the ability to form groups of like minded individuals easily. Contrary to what people have been saying, Steam has a massive number of benefits

First off, what is a hardcore pc gamer? Is it someone who spends 6+ hours per day online playing the same game over and over again? Or is it someone who plays an hour or two a week but has played dozens or hundreds of games in his life? I consider both hardcore gamers. Both are very dedicated to it.
I probably have forgotten the names of more games then you ever played, and still have more then 200 of them in my shelf. There are jewels like Popolous on 5,25" disks, Wing Commander in all incarnations, games like the very first Need for Speed. Those are memories an online distrubutor can't give me. I consider myself a hardcore gamer and I am not with steam, the same goes for most of my friends. Sorry that we are no hardcore gamers in your eyes because we don't use steam. I advise you to open up your horizon a little.
Secondly, you repeat what already has been mentioned. The benefits you mention are there, but they are nothing that can't be copied by PGI. Who says that MW:O will not have an integrated voice comm system? Who says it won't have a chat system? those are some of the easiest parts to implement of a game I could think of.

I can only repeat myself again and again. Steam as the sole solution for the distribution of MW:O is the wrong way to do it. As one of many ways I'm all for it.

I can accept your points why can't you see mine and insist on steam as the sole solution for MW:O? Why is a compromise impossible for you? Is it because of convenience? Enlighten me, please!

And yes, I do want boxed games. They look good on my shelf. Sadly the new ones are nothing like the ones we had 15+ years ago.

@lahyenne
If I can't beat 'em, I keep playing the 200+ games I still own.

[Halfinax]

Egomane, on 06 January 2012 - 01:31 AM, said:

Steams origin (no pun intended) is that of a DRM system. Only when Valve opened it for other companys to distribute their games over it, it slowly became more.

Incorrect. It was designed as a way of getting around having to give so much of their profit to EA, who had exclusive publishing rights to Valve's games.

Egomane, on 06 January 2012 - 01:31 AM, said:

There are people out there, that don't want to buy their games online (because they have no creditcard, don't trust paypal, or whatever reason), that may want to be able to resell their games after they played it, that like to have a hard copy of the game they bought, that don't want to "connect" to a community or want to make online only friends. Every single one of the incentives you mentioned mean nothing to me.

I don't know anyone anymore that doesn't have a bank account, and therefore a brand name Debit card that acts as a debit card, but I can see where the concern comes from. I personally just see hardcopies of games as torphies, or potential loss of data anymore.

You don't have to "connect" to the Steam community as their forums and their DD platform are separate from one another. If you are so scared of the internet peoples why are you posting, making friends on these forums? It's not any different in that regard, but I guess you mean you don't want to quickly and easily find what server your gaming buds are on, or what game their playing, but that's beside the point. You don't have to use those features if you don't want to.

Egomane, on 06 January 2012 - 01:31 AM, said:

I've come from over 30 years of computer gaming and the last ten years or so where a constant spiral downwards for the users. Game Demos are but a few left (I remember gaming magazines being full of them every issue), closed and open betas replaced them (in a few cases) and still the games we get are bugged to hell. Games became bananaware and some never make it to a nearly bug free playing environment. Even triple A titles. DRM becomes more and more restrictive and each new type lowers the rights of the consumers a litte more. Publishers act, as if their consumers are the enemy that needs to be restricted and controled, not as the people that make them the money they work with. I will not support this by supporting steam, which is just one (but the biggest) implentation of this System.

I also come from a long lineage of PC gaming, and from what I recall you had to buy magazines or demo discs bitd with the exception of shareware. Steam offers demos of many many games, and I don't have to pay a cent for them anymore!

The other issues you describe there are a problem with the gaming industry as a whole and I see no connection with Valve's Steam platform which in many ways has single handedly revived the PC gaming market. You can't blame Valve for it. DRM is a fact of life in gaming today, and Valve offers the least restrictive and least intrusive DRM through the Steam platform.

Egomane, on 06 January 2012 - 01:31 AM, said:

So as I said, if they use steam as a distrubution portal, I'm all for it, but if it isn't optional but the only way to get or play the game, I'm out.


Edit:

I'm not a Steam h8ter. If people use it and like it, so be it, just don't try to force it, or something like it, on everyone. I know you are the wrong one to adress here, but the publishers wouldn't listen to me. And hell, I tried to make them listen.

Well actually if they integrate Steamworks it really does a lot to lighten their load when it comes to getting the Online aspect working well. Which is also freely distributed by Valve to developers. Granted it means they must use the Steam Platform, but when it gives them access to 30+ million registered users, and 4.5+ million active users while reducing their work it sounds like a win win to me.

As for the earlier "backlash of losing players if it's Steam exclusive" I'll reiterate the huge user base that Steam offers, and I'm sure that the number of people they would attract through it would outweigh the loss of a few players. I and I am sure others here would be sad to see old hats lost due to a misguided fear of Steam, but we would gain so much new blood that would eventually become Old Hats too that I think even the loss to the MWO community would be outweighed by the gain.

I really hope you wouldn't quit this venerable franchise because it makes a lot of business sense if PGI uses it in the end, but hell we don't know that they are going to use it so this is all just hypothetical anyway. I for one really hope they consider it.

VVVVTypically Steam uses less than 150 MB of system memory on my system, and that's with it using a number of windows. I actually posted an image of that in the NGNG thread.

Edited by Halfinax, 06 January 2012 - 10:33 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

The only true dilemna I have with Steam is having to shut off the Steam client and then restarting, after I log into play a game as leaving the Steam Client active uses up valuable system resources.

Steam would be a great advert tool, but I have to vote no as well. Let PGI and the crew handle it In-House (always the best method imho).

[Egomane]

At last someone who doesn't just repeat the same things over and over.

I stand corrected on the origin of steam. You are correct, but so am I. Valve wanted both and found the perfect solution in its online platform. By the way the only reason I never played Halflife 2 even though I loved the first one.

I can't agree on the debit card. I just checked their policies for my country, and there are only two options as all payments have to be made in US$. Creditcard or a cd- or product key. Nothing else, not even paypal! And not everyone owns a credit card. So for me any microtransactions to buy me something for my MW:O account if it were on steam are out of the question. And I guess for others as well.

Next to the Demos. I bought the gaming magazin, if it had a demo I wanted or not, because it was an interesting read. Others I downloaded (if they weren't in my favorite magazin or I just couldn't wait). I never paid for a demo directly.

Last, I don't have to look on which servers my friends play. If we want to play a game together I pack up my Laptop and we do a little LAN session. Each and every one of us strongly believes that it is a "cold environment" if we play over the internet. You can't really feel the game and your friends. Sadly that means that we can't play any of the more modern games as they don't offer true LAN anymore. And as I already said: MW:O is an exception I'm willing to make in regards to internet play. And it's the only one.

You are probably right, if you say that steam would bring in more players, then are lost. I can't disagree with that. I'm not stupid enough to believe otherwise.

So we agree to disagree.

[Sirisian]

That Guy, on 05 January 2012 - 07:22 PM, said:

easy DL and patch process? please

DL game client, install, it automatically patches when you connect to the server, you know, like every MMO type of game, ever? steam is not NECESSARY for that, and only complicates it

That's what Steam already does for thousands of games. I've personally never had a problem with Steam, so I can't really comment on specific problems you might have seen. (To put this in perspective I only use a 768 kbps Internet plan).

lahyenne, on 06 January 2012 - 01:03 AM, said:

if data collection does happen through Steam, I'm willing to put up with it. I have no evidence to prove/disprove it actually occurs but I wouldn't be surprised either way.

Steam's hardware and software data collection is optional to a certain degree. You can see their public information is here which is largely used by developers to see trends in a gamer's hardware.

However, much like Origin, Steam scans a users computer for cheat programs which is one of the services it offers for game developers to get rid of cheaters, something MW:O could benefit from.

Dlardrageth, on 06 January 2012 - 01:17 AM, said:

Exactly, and now take a look at the benefits for MWO that Steam integration would offer. Do they outweigh the possible backlash from people boycotting the game if it becomes accessible via Steam only?

Thankfully there is no backlash since most gamers have used Steam for years with no problems.

MaddMaxx, on 06 January 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:

The only true dilemna I have with Steam is having to shut off the Steam client and then restarting, after I log into play a game as leaving the Steam Client active uses up valuable system resources.

80% of gamers according to the Steam survey have more than 3 GB of RAM. I have 16 GB. Steam uses between 15 MB and 150 MB depending on if it's doing things.

[MaddMaxx]

Quote

" 80% of gamers according to the Steam survey have more than 3 GB of RAM. I have 16 GB. Steam uses between 15 MB and 150 MB depending on if it's doing things."

And I like to use 100% (minus the OS's needs - set to minimal) of my vast supply for whatever game is running at the time.

[T0RC4ED]

Im all for steam, all games loaded to steam are easy to reinstall and patch even if ive lost the disks or some sort of misfortune befell them. No need to keep CD keys stored in a safe place (which only works for the first install). Having access to the steam community wile playing would also allow us the ease of communicating with friends playing other games (IE Hey bud hop over to MWO, so we can rock these fools... we got room for one more.) Patching would be made easy too... P2P patching is horrible and can be slow and unreliable (really a toss up, sometimes Its fast, other times it would be quicker to walk to a friends house in another city and copy their updated files).
STEAM FTW
This concludes my rant... /Steps down from soap box

[John Dragon]

Wow, i never knew how strongly people felt about steam...

[UncleKulikov]

Are there any reasons to have Steam support in addition to MWO's own download site?

[Halfinax]

@UncleKulikov
Well for one Valve (devs of the Steam DD platform) already have a lot of well steam in the gaming community, and most of the early bugs from launch are worked out so it's also reliable. If nothing else (assuming they don't go Steamworks) the main reason to offer it on Steam would be, quite simply, exposure.

If they go Steamworks (this means Steam exclusive, but not to be confused with can only be found on Steam) PGI gets: " Whether you’re looking for matchmaking, achievements, anti-cheat technology, in-game economy systems with microtransactions, or the next big feature in gaming, Steamworks has what you need." without all the effort.

@John Dragon
Yeah, there is a lot of passion on both sides of Steam. I for one am pretty passionately Pro-Steam as I, in case it wasn't clear in my earlier post, honestly believe Valve more or less resurrected the PC Gaming market with their Steam Platform. Obviously that can be argued, but it's how I see it.

On the other side there are people that are just as passionately anti-steam with fears of it intruding on their privacy and bad experiences from it's admittedly rocky-bug-ridden launch window. They do have some very valid arguments, but I also find there is a lot of misinformation out there on this side of the argument.

[Rathverge]

Please understant what the OP and Title indicate:

Steam as a supplier: Meaning Steam would distribute MWO in its online store and advertise the game. (Probably for quite the fee)

Steam Integration: Steam is REQUIRED to play the game/connect to servers/manage contacts and cloud.

The latter is a nightmare for this type of game IMO. Sure steam is nice, but steam integrated games are not.

[Halfinax]

Rathverge, on 06 January 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

Please understant what the OP and Title indicate:

Steam as a supplier: Meaning Steam would distribute MWO in its online store and advertise the game. (Probably for quite the fee)

I understant understand quite well what the initial topic was, but have followed the topic and adjusted the statements appropriately as the discussion has moved to cover both aspects.

Well I don't know if/what fee they charge to have a free game on their store, but it can't be too outrageous based on the number of F2P games flocking to it.

Rathverge, on 06 January 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

Steam Integration: Steam is REQUIRED to play the game/connect to servers/manage contacts and cloud.

The latter is a nightmare for this type of game IMO. Sure steam is nice, but steam integrated games are not.

Yes, Steamworks aka Steam integration requires the use of Steam I covered that.

How is having a ready to go system that covers everything a competitive F2P game needs in a pre-made package offered for free a nightmare? Micro-transaction store: check (whew we don't have to make that from scratch), Anti-Cheat software: check (man we don't have to make that either), Buddy list: check (man this is a real nightmare we don't have to make all this stuff.), instant access to 30+ million users: check (man what a pita to instantly have huge exposure to potential customers), and mind you all that is free to the developers.

Granted I'm sure Valve charges a fee for the micro-transactions, but no one knows what those fees are as, to my understanding, all devs sign an NDA regarding the exact rate, but we do know that devs get a better return for DD games through Steam than they get through boxed copies going through publishers. That much many devs have made clear, and apparently they get the money much quicker too.

Not trying to steam roll (lol unintended pun), but I felt a response was in order.

[Hollister]

I seriously hope they do not use steam. My first time using steam was with warhammer 40k. I hated the fact that I have to login to somewhere that has nothing to do with the game that I bought so i can play it online. After that I got another game that used steam and more idiocy as i didnt have internet acces so i couldnt even play the game and it was single player only.

Same with the origin thing with battlefield 3. After I saw what was going on I just repacked the game up and took it back to the store.

I also know more then a few people that play games online that use steam and then get kicked off of what ever reason when they were playing and then can not play for hours because they can not login to there steam account.

Sorry but no. Steam is real game breaker for me.