83 replies to this topic

[Omigir]

That Guy, on 05 January 2012 - 07:22 PM, said:

as long as steam is not required, go nuts steam. do your worst the more people it brings to the game the better i guess easy DL and patch process? please DL game client, install, it automatically patches when you connect to the server, you know, like every MMO type of game, ever? steam is not NECESSARY for that, and only complicates it

I agree, I like steam, i play eve through steam as well as most games. Infact, becuase SWTOR is not on steam, im probably going to continue to drag my feet on playing it untill i just dont. Its an easy and quick way to get games that otherwise i might have to go to a store to get, not to mention, I like the fact its a digital platform and its always seeded so that if something happens i can just rum my steam, steam has all 'my games' in my librabry and i can pick and choose.

on that same note, i dont think it should be required... i was pissed when i got Mount & Blade from the store and it forced me to DL steam.. again... <__< I had been steam free for four years at that point but once i relaised i still liked steam i was ok with.. but still i did not like being forced to use it. And i dont think any of you shuold have to geta steam account if you dont want to.

EDIT: Side note, Global agenda is a F2P game on steam, you do not need steam to DL and play it. I played it off steam, and a friend of mine got it right from the game's webpage with no steam requirement to connect to the server. So steam does not always mean you *have to have steam* in order to dl and play the game.

EA games on the other hand, only come through origin these days.. but then agean EA is the walmart of games... <__<

Edited by Omigir, 06 January 2012 - 03:53 PM.

[Kaemon]

[Omigir]

Kaemon, on 06 January 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:

You dont think this happens on games home host servers for download? You dont think downlaod servers wont get overwhelmed at one point or another?

[UncleKulikov]

Halfinax, on 06 January 2012 - 01:46 PM, said:

@UncleKulikov
Well for one Valve (devs of the Steam DD platform) already have a lot of well steam in the gaming community, and most of the early bugs from launch are worked out so it's also reliable. If nothing else (assuming they don't go Steamworks) the main reason to offer it on Steam would be, quite simply, exposure.

If they go Steamworks (this means Steam exclusive, but not to be confused with can only be found on Steam) PGI gets: " Whether you’re looking for matchmaking, achievements, anti-cheat technology, in-game economy systems with microtransactions, or the next big feature in gaming, Steamworks has what you need." without all the effort.

@John Dragon
Yeah, there is a lot of passion on both sides of Steam. I for one am pretty passionately Pro-Steam as I, in case it wasn't clear in my earlier post, honestly believe Valve more or less resurrected the PC Gaming market with their Steam Platform. Obviously that can be argued, but it's how I see it.

On the other side there are people that are just as passionately anti-steam with fears of it intruding on their privacy and bad experiences from it's admittedly rocky-bug-ridden launch window. They do have some very valid arguments, but I also find there is a lot of misinformation out there on this side of the argument.

Which is why I don't understand the vitriol against Steam.

Edited by UncleKulikov, 06 January 2012 - 08:52 PM.

[Kaemon]

Omigir, on 06 January 2012 - 08:37 PM, said:

You dont think this happens on games home host servers for download? You dont think downlaod servers wont get overwhelmed at one point or another?

Arguing equality among crap is not the best way to advocate your point of view.

I would rather MW:O fail or succeed under it's own 'steam', not suckle the teet of mass distribution to a dubious player base/community that has shown a tendency toward immaturity.

But since you're counter-point to my original comment was based not in the awesome sauceness of Steam but the fact that something MW:O does could be just as crappy, we will most likely not meet upon the same road anytime soon.

Also this is for a game that I own the retail box and installed on my computer.

Edited by Kaemon, 06 January 2012 - 10:20 PM.

[Halfinax]

Kaemon, on 06 January 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

Arguing equality among crap is not the best way to advocate your point of view.

So a limited instance where the servers for a DD are being tied up due to maintanence or severe overloading as often occurs during the Steam Mega Sales is proof that the Steam service is crap?

You would therefore argue that if your favorite store is overloaded with customers during an extreme sale that if customer service is lack luster that the store is there and forever more unworthy of your business?

Kaemon, on 06 January 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

I would rather MW:O fail or succeed under it's own 'steam', not suckle the teet of mass distribution to a dubious player base/community that has shown a tendency toward immaturity.

That "dubious player base" being the largest in PC gaming, and not defined purely based on the vocal minority of it's forum users? Oh no I guess you mean "dubious player base" based purely on some anecdotal evidence like you were using to prove that Steam is unrealiable because you could provide a singular example of it being unavailable, or inadequate. BTW anecdotal evidence is entirely subjective and in no way indicative to any trend or reliable evidence at all.

Kaemon, on 06 January 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

But since you're counter-point to my original comment was based not in the awesome sauceness of Steam but the fact that something MW:O does could be just as crappy, we will most likely not meet upon the same road anytime soon.

Also this is for a game that I own the retail box and installed on my computer.

You own the retail box and have MWO installed on your PC and you can't determine whether or not it is "just as crappy" as the Steam service?

Two problems here: a) apparently you own a copy of a game that does not exist as of yet, and you are using it to point out how poor of a service a system you don't use is.

or you need to clarify what game you chose to give more money to the publisher than the dev too as it is unclear to which game you are referring, and again using a singular example of when the Steam service was down likely due to basic maintenance and updates that they do 3 times a week which typically totals less than 2 hours (a week) and whether or not you had already authenticated the game through Steam and could have simply gone into offline mode and played anyway.

Edited by Halfinax, 06 January 2012 - 11:21 PM.

[Hollister]

Halfinax, on 06 January 2012 - 11:09 PM, said:

So a limited instance where the servers for a DD are being tied up due to maintanence or severe overloading as often occurs during the Steam Mega Sales is proof that the Steam service is crap?

You would therefore argue that if your favorite store is overloaded with customers during an extreme sale that if customer service is lack luster that the store is there and forever more unworthy of your business?




That "dubious player base" being the largest in PC gaming, and not defined purely based on the vocal minority of it's forum users? Oh no I guess you mean "dubious player base" based purely on some anecdotal evidence like you were using to prove that Steam is unrealiable because you could provide a singular example of it being unavailable, or inadequate. BTW anecdotal evidence is entirely subjective and in no way indicative to any trend or reliable evidence at all.



You own the retail box and have MWO installed on your PC and you can't determine whether or not it is "just as crappy" as the Steam service?

Two problems here: a) apparently you own a copy of a game that does not exist as of yet, and you are using it to point out how poor of a service a system you don't use is.

or you need to clarify what game you chose to give more money to the publisher than the dev too as it is unclear to which game you are referring, and again using a singular example of when the Steam service was down likely due to basic maintenance and updates that they do 3 times a week which typically totals less than 2 hours (a week) and whether or not you had already authenticated the game through Steam and could have simply gone into offline mode and played anyway.

Steam is just a gimmick to sell games to the mass gamers with out actual paper money being exchanged because people are more likely to spend money if they never see that money being exchanged.

I know theres more then a few problems with steam and there stupidity because I have lots of friends who swear the new CoDMW that just came out is so awesome but at the same time they also complain to me about how steam kicks them off randomly all the time and cant get back to playing the game for hours. So steam can not be all that great.

PGI is better off to follow Blizzard and how they handle there accounts. Have the Data for all your characters and everything saved on server side and all you have to do is login to a computer with the game and have all your stuff.

Steam for just buying the game and that is it. I have no problem, but to have to login and use steam to play MWO when it comes out. Screw that noise.

[Halfinax]

Hollister, on 06 January 2012 - 11:59 PM, said:

Steam is just a gimmick to sell games to the mass gamers with out actual paper money being exchanged because people are more likely to spend money if they never see that money being exchanged.

I know theres more then a few problems with steam and there stupidity because I have lots of friends who swear the new CoDMW that just came out is so awesome but at the same time they also complain to me about how steam kicks them off randomly all the time and cant get back to playing the game for hours. So steam can not be all that great.

PGI is better off to follow Blizzard and how they handle there accounts. Have the Data for all your characters and everything saved on server side and all you have to do is login to a computer with the game and have all your stuff.

Steam for just buying the game and that is it. I have no problem, but to have to login and use steam to play MWO when it comes out. Screw that noise.

COD;MW is not steam works....if they are getting kicked out of those servers for an awful terrible game then A) it has jack **** to do with Steam, and you should tell your friends to not support crap games in the first place.

Steam is just for buying CoD games on the internet. It isn't a steamworks game and quit confusing developer issues with issues with steam..

Don't have internet access that's not Valve's problem when the game clearly indicates it requires internet access to for a one time authentication, can't play a MP game without internet access again not an issue with Steam. Developer doesn't know how to make a game....that's not Steam's fault. A non Steamworks game doesn't work well uhhh don't blame Valve just because you bought the game from them. Don't know your behind from your head....again not Valve's fault.

Oh and the blizzard service is down more average hours per week than Steam btw...it's the same damn thing, but Blizzard is owned by Activision which actively hates gamers and thinks they are all criminals.

Edited by Halfinax, 07 January 2012 - 12:29 AM.

[LabMaus]

would be awesome

i would also like to see TRADING !

u see there is a game called Team Fortress 2 it just became F2P (no worrys its not like the other stupid rop off F2P games) its better
so it became F2P and yes the F2P ppl do have an disadvantage but its not big deal its like a smaller pice of the cake
the disadvantage is that u can not trade ingame (yes the game has a trade feature what really awesome is) and u get less drops per week (drops = almost all the stuff that exists in the game the stuff that doesnt drop are just some lets say "beaute adds")

so Team Fortress 2 (TF2) has the awesoe thing that after u payed for the full account a.k.a. "premium" acc u get the ability to trade with other players and get more drops per week (and some small things like joining on certain servers but this is the chose of the admin if he allows F2P's or not) and u only need to pay 0.70 € for 1 single item in the store to get the premium acc (the premium acc is not a different acc so u still keep your acc but it gets upgreated) so after u paid for it u have all the rights as the ppl who bought the game at its release

what i am trying to say is that TF2 has the awesome ability to trade and craft so u get drops (mostly weapons then there are hats and miscs and action items that are rare-er drops) so the cool thing is that trading u can trade all the stuff u get droped and there is crafting crafting is even better u can craft lets say 2 weapons from the same class and get 1 scrap metal which u can then smelt into 1 reclaimed metal (but u need 3 scrap metals) which u can then smelt into refined metal (but u need 3 reclaimed metals) so when u finally got your refined metal u can trade it for some sweet appearance (ofcurse only if u are into this) the weapons are cheaper u can get 1 weapon for 1 scrap or just wait until it drops

how do they still make money out of this ?
well its simple they (so VALVe the owner of TF2) support other games that are about to get released but they aint that good/popular
(example: they support Skyrim when u buy it trough steam u get some extra weapon reskings and/or appearance like hats and misc items)
so ppl buy skyrim just to get those items but wait there is more u get them in genuine quality so that they are different from the ones ppl craft and their worth more

the 2nd part of: how to they still make money out of this ?
the Store
u can buy all the stuff from the store the only problem is that the stuff bought from the store in NOT craftible so its quality falls down with other words u can really buy an advantage

the system they use is super awesome and it works very good there are no ppl complaining about it

PS: sorry for my bad english

[Hollister]

Halfinax, on 07 January 2012 - 12:10 AM, said:

COD;MW is not steam works....if they are getting kicked out of those servers for an awful terrible game then A) it has jack **** to do with Steam, and you should tell your friends to not support crap games in the first place.

Steam is just for buying CoD games on the internet. It isn't a steamworks game and quit confusing developer issues with issues with steam..

Don't have internet access that's not Valve's problem when the game clearly indicates it requires internet access to for a one time authentication, can't play a MP game without internet access again not an issue with Steam. Developer doesn't know how to make a game....that's not Steam's fault. A non Steamworks game doesn't work well uhhh don't blame Valve just because you bought the game from them. Don't know your behind from your head....again not Valve's fault.

Oh and the blizzard service is down more average hours per week than Steam btw...it's the same damn thing, but Blizzard is owned by Activision which actively hates gamers and thinks they are all criminals.

I do not know if steam is just for buying CoD on the internet. but they bought there copies from a store, but I watch when they start up the game it automaticaly signs them into steam to play the game online. If they can not login into there account they can not play online.

They also did not originaly put the warning on the box about needing to have internet to register the key code. It was after it pissed off tons of people because there was no warning about needing internet to play the game.. Which is now why almost if not all the boxes do now have that warning. This was a few years ago though.

Just because Blizzard is now owned by activision does not mean they are run by them. Activision merged with Vivendi games who owned Blizzard at the time. Blizzard though has been able to stay independent

[Demi-Precentor Konev]

The reliability of CoD's servers has nothing to do with Steam.

The people in this thread that want to see MWO on Steam don't seem to be asking for it use of SteamWorks. They just want the game to have Steam support so it can hook on to the MWO.exe and be accessed through the library and attached to our profiles (allowing us to use the overlay, Steam messaging, and voice chat), and so it can get the exposure Steam provides. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Kaemon]

Halfinax, on 06 January 2012 - 11:09 PM, said:

@John Dragon
Yeah, there is a lot of passion on both sides of Steam. I for one am pretty passionately Pro-Steam as I, in case it wasn't clear in my earlier post, honestly believe Valve more or less resurrected the PC Gaming market with their Steam Platform. Obviously that can be argued, but it's how I see it.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So a limited instance where the servers for a DD are being tied up due to maintanence or severe overloading as often occurs during the Steam Mega Sales is proof that the Steam service is crap?

You would therefore argue that if your favorite store is overloaded with customers during an extreme sale that if customer service is lack luster that the store is there and forever more unworthy of your business?

That "dubious player base" being the largest in PC gaming, and not defined purely based on the vocal minority of it's forum users? Oh no I guess you mean "dubious player base" based purely on some anecdotal evidence like you were using to prove that Steam is unrealiable because you could provide a singular example of it being unavailable, or inadequate. BTW anecdotal evidence is entirely subjective and in no way indicative to any trend or reliable evidence at all.

You own the retail box and have MWO installed on your PC and you can't determine whether or not it is "just as crappy" as the Steam service?

Two problems here: a) apparently you own a copy of a game that does not exist as of yet, and you are using it to point out how poor of a service a system you don't use is.

or you need to clarify what game you chose to give more money to the publisher than the dev too as it is unclear to which game you are referring, and again using a singular example of when the Steam service was down likely due to basic maintenance and updates that they do 3 times a week which typically totals less than 2 hours (a week) and whether or not you had already authenticated the game through Steam and could have simply gone into offline mode and played anyway.

I'm breaking my own rule of arguing on the internet *sighs*

'Valve has singlehandedly resurrected PC gaming on the interweb'

Really?

I mean, really?

It's not a limited instance, it's a known problem with Steam, there are countless threadnaughts (4.2 million when using that phrase in a google search, that's anecdotal btw) on it https://support.stea...=4595-wexn-6831

Why do I need a 'store' for a F2P game? Why do I need to allow a company that has nothing to do with IGP or PGI to have any influence on how the game succeeds? what if your 'maintenance' happens during our Go-Live? Do you think Steam stops working on their systems everytime a game says 'we really need 100% uptime right now for X event we have going on?' Or do they give you the old 'best effort' answer?

What's your evidence that Steam is a wonderful service that will bring all of these milions of users (which I doubt their supposed subscription numbers as anything more than hyper-related marketing) to this game?

Oh, here is Steam's own numbers on their subscription base - http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

You don't have any, except that they are there, I would argue there were between 300-500K battle tech fans that are out 'there' already, all available without tying your fate to a 3rd party distribution service (great or not).

I own Shogun 2, which requires Steam to play, if Steam is unavailable, so is the game that I own and have installed on my PC, you don't see that as a problem?

That's interesting because I do.

Edited by Kaemon, 07 January 2012 - 07:13 AM.

[Dlardrageth]

Kaemon, on 07 January 2012 - 06:58 AM, said:

[...]
I own Shogun 2, which requires Steam to play, if Steam is unavailable, so is the game that I own and have installed on my PC, you don't see that as a problem?

That's interesting because I do.

/signed

Same here. Same story with Napoleon:Total War as well.

As a longtime player of the whole TotalWar series (since the very first Shogun), I'm tempted to pass next time they release a game only with Steam integration. Even without the issue with multiplayer mode, it is simply an outrage that you cannot play your singleplayer game (mode) because the "oh-so-important Steam servers" are down. Like they have any influence whatsoever on my single-player game.

I personally could care less if MWO uses Steam for distribution/sale matters or not, but fully integrating with them? Thanks, but no thanks, we had one "big game company", aka Micros*** pretty much screw the whole BT/MW franchise once already, don't need another one. I definitely don't want any similar **** to happen to MWO just because some people seem to think any game not available with Steam integration is a failure. Sillyness IMHO, there are enough games out there that work quite well without having any ties to Steam/Valve.

I have to wonder why, when I read some posts here, huh?

[Demi-Precentor Konev]

Kaemon, on 07 January 2012 - 06:58 AM, said:

Why do I need a 'store' for a F2P game? Why do I need to allow a company that has nothing to do with IGP or PGI to have any influence on how the game succeeds? what if your 'maintenance' happens during our Go-Live? Do you think Steam stops working on their systems everytime a game says 'we really need 100% uptime right now for X event we have going on?' Or do they give you the old 'best effort' answer?

What's your evidence that Steam is a wonderful service that will bring all of these milions of users (which I doubt their supposed subscription numbers as anything more than hyper-related marketing) to this game?

Oh, here is Steam's own numbers on their subscription base - http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

You don't have any, except that they are there, I would argue there were between 300-500K battle tech fans that are out 'there' already, all available without tying your fate to a 3rd party distribution service (great or not).

I own Shogun 2, which requires Steam to play, if Steam is unavailable, so is the game that I own and have installed on my PC, you don't see that as a problem?

I don't think you understand..... The post directly above yours points out that just because a game is available through the Steam store, it does not mean that it will require Steam to play. Many games can be purchased in stores or through other distribution services and played without the use of Steam. However if one is so inclined, we can put the CD key in to our Steam browser and launch the game through the library and use the overlays/messsaging/chat/etc. And at no point does the status of Steam's servers have an effect on our game. I was playing Hard Reset the other day during Friends maintenance and didn't even notice the downtime. This morning my internet connection dropped for a few minutes during a session of Sonic Generations and nothing happened.

Being available on Steam =/= using SteamWorks. Two *very* different things. Right now there are 4.2 million players online. Steam is a simple and easy way to get the MWO name in their faces. Not only could it feature on the store page, you also have to consider people seeing others on their friends list playing it and asking "Hey, what game is that?". "Oh its this *******' game from the BattleTech universe with giant robots, check it out, it's free."

And what do you mean by, "if Steam is unavailable"?

Edited by lahyenne, 07 January 2012 - 07:56 AM.

[Halfinax]

Kaemon, on 07 January 2012 - 06:58 AM, said:

I'm breaking my own rule of arguing on the internet *sighs*

'Valve has singlehandedly resurrected PC gaming on the interweb'

Really?

I mean, really?

Uhh I never said on the internet, but yes as I clearly pointed out that was just my opinion, but you have to admit the PC gaming market had been getting progressively more anemic before Steam came along, and that trend has been turned around after Steam came along.

Kaemon, on 07 January 2012 - 06:58 AM, said:

It's not a limited instance, it's a known problem with Steam, there are countless threadnaughts (4.2 million when using that phrase in a google search, that's anecdotal btw) on it https://support.stea...=4595-wexn-6831

You realize that's a separate issue from a server being available right? Yes, Steam isn't perfect, but hey as you pointed out they offer a solution right there on their website to help you fix that problem that has nothing to do with servers being down.

Kaemon, on 07 January 2012 - 06:58 AM, said:

Why do I need a 'store' for a F2P game? Why do I need to allow a company that has nothing to do with IGP or PGI to have any influence on how the game succeeds? what if your 'maintenance' happens during our Go-Live? Do you think Steam stops working on their systems everytime a game says 'we really need 100% uptime right now for X event we have going on?' Or do they give you the old 'best effort' answer?

Because a F2P game needs a store to get this stuff called money, so they can do this thing called profit? Because that DD platform has a large user base and reaches millions of potential customers. Valve doing maintenance on it's STEAM platform only effects access to the store, chat, and it's own game servers. If you are already in a multiplayer game that has it's own servers and Steam gets shutdown for 5 minutes for maintenance you would never ever know because you aren't using their servers, so that question is irrelevant.

Kaemon, on 07 January 2012 - 06:58 AM, said:

What's your evidence that Steam is a wonderful service that will bring all of these milions of users (which I doubt their supposed subscription numbers as anything more than hyper-related marketing) to this game?

Oh, here is Steam's own numbers on their subscription base - http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

Thanks for the link. Take note that that is a minute by minute active users chart, and not their subscriber numbers. I don't see why you are trying to suggest that they are lying about raw usage rates taken at 1 minute intervals.

Kaemon, on 07 January 2012 - 06:58 AM, said:

You don't have any, except that they are there, I would argue there were between 300-500K battle tech fans that are out 'there' already, all available without tying your fate to a 3rd party distribution service (great or not).

I don't really know how you can suggest I have no evidence as to the users of Steam, especially since you linked it in your post, but here is some more. Which says (this isn't Steams sight so I guess that will make it more reputable in your mind) there are 40 million active users, which is significantly more than your entirely rabbit out of the hat BT player numbers.

Kaemon, on 07 January 2012 - 06:58 AM, said:

I own Shogun 2, which requires Steam to play, if Steam is unavailable, so is the game that I own and have installed on my PC, you don't see that as a problem?

That's interesting because I do.

You can play it in Offline mode, so no it really isn't unavailable if the Steam service is down, so no it isn't a problem.

@Dlardrageth Then you are fully aware that the Total Warfare games have always been very buggy even before they used Steamworks (I've played them as well), as a matter of fact it's funny that the problems are nearly the same regardless of if it was a title pre-Steamworks as it is post Steamworks.

Again offline mode fixes this. Literally you click the "STEAM" button and look at the submenu. There you will find a button that says "Go Offline..." press it and Steam restarts in offline mode, and you can play your games again.

STEAM is a DD platform not a company trying to buy a license for the BT franchise unlike MS. I never said I thought a game without Steamworks was a failure at any point. I own lots of games that aren't Steamworks titles, and guess what they have some issues too. I don't think a PC game needs Steamworks to be successful. I think you are missing the point of what I am saying. I was simply pointing out why using Steamworks is potentially a good business decision for PGI since well that was the point of this topic.

[Kaemon]

Halfinax, on 07 January 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

I was simply pointing out why using Steamworks is potentially a good business decision for PGI since well that was the point of this topic.

Seems like an awful lot of effort to point this out, when this one sentence was a better argument then your last few posts regarding the issue.

FYI - (sorry if this sounds snarky but it's pretty much a fact of the intarweb) I would suggest not using wikipedia as a source for information when arguing a point or you might get the WIKIPEDIA SAID IT WAS TRUE SO DONT ARGUE meme backlash.

layhenne -
Have to check that out again (pretty sure I had that set) issue I believe was when I purchases the DLC content for the expansion from Steam, which then made it my retail version, but their online expansion (which was a bad idea in hindsight).

This is my last post on the matter, also I'll leave you with this wonderful tidbit -

http://arstechnica.c...y-be-stolen.ars

Edited by Kaemon, 07 January 2012 - 11:39 AM.

[Raeven]

Dlardrageth, on 07 January 2012 - 07:42 AM, said:

Even without the issue with multiplayer mode, it is simply an outrage that you cannot play your singleplayer game (mode) because the "oh-so-important Steam servers" are down. Like they have any influence whatsoever on my single-player game.

All of you with this complaint, you do know you can load up any single player game you have through steam in offline mode, right?

[Omigir]

Kaemon, on 06 January 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

Arguing equality among crap is not the best way to advocate your point of view. I would rather MW:O fail or succeed under it's own 'steam', not suckle the teet of mass distribution to a dubious player base/community that has shown a tendency toward immaturity. But since you're counter-point to my original comment was based not in the awesome sauceness of Steam but the fact that something MW:O does could be just as crappy, we will most likely not meet upon the same road anytime soon. Also this is for a game that I own the retail box and installed on my computer.

Alright, if you want to throw out blanket statments, that same comunity on steam, exists outside of steam. Not being on steam does not mean that a imature crowd will not come and play on MW:O, but i would like to state that they will play anyway. On that same point, there are many gamers on steam who are mature and I would venture and say it is the mass majority, as I use steam regularlly (and have never had a single error ever in the time I have used it) and interact with the comunity regularly, and have yet to have a problem. So is it your opinion or a fact that steam is plegued with imature indaviduals?

And finaly, MW:O will have to advertise and distribute some where, if they go in game stop nad walmart, then its just them sucking on the 'teet of' those companies. A online game distrobution store is no difrent then a physical one, besides the fact that any one with internet can get the product vice just those who have access to a game stop or walmart or any other store.

[Egomane]

I've read the arguments of the pro-steamers again and again. Besides player base I have found nothing that isn't easily replicable. Instead I found that some arguments never made it to the discussion or are getting ignored.

If IGP is using steamworks they have to either live with lower profits, as they have to share part of it with Valve or raise the prizes for everything they offer to come up at the same values. As we don't know how much Valve will take from them for hosting a game like MW:O, we also don't know if a greater player base will counterweight that. Especially if you look at the next point ...

None of the pro-steamers seemed to register, that I already posted, that there are players who can't take part of the microtransaction market MW:O will offer, if it were on Steam, because there are countries in which the only possible payment method for steam is a credit card (no debit card, no paypal, no nothing), effectifly turning those players into a none-profit option for IGP.

Also, I don't believe that Steam ressurected PC-Gaming. Unless someone posts numbers that indicate otherwise, I'll go with the numbers the publishers supply every once in a while. And those indicate a constant drop on PC gaming in favor of console gaming. If it were otherwise we wouldn't get a constant raise of console ports to PC and less and less PC-only games.

[Halfinax]

Okay here's a great article that is fair in looking at both sides of the issue, and it also recognizes the coorelation between PC gaming's state pre and post Steam: on Mximum PC, and here's one from Gamespy.

As for those that can't use CC, and paypal and the like I honestly don't know what to tell you. Is that something you can only not use on Steam? If so the point is very valid. As for do more customers = more money? Well, frankly, yes. Even if some of them cannot purchase premium content most will be able to.