950 replies to this topic

[Marzipanzer]

Quietly Crazy, on 31 July 2012 - 12:36 AM, said:

Though the entire galaxy has been searched, only the human race managed to become sentient. No other star system produced what can be considered even semi-intelligent life.

Nope.
BT has bird-man aliens.

[Skylarr]

Marzipanzer, on 06 August 2012 - 04:38 PM, said:

Nope.
BT has bird-man aliens.

[Neenja]

DEST Commando: "Ha, look at this stupid bird-thing's spear. Such primitive weaponry."

Tetatae: "Ha, look at this stupid guy in his gimp suit. Why's he pointing his space dild* at me, anyway?"

Edited by Neenja, 06 August 2012 - 04:49 PM.

[Ron Greene]

Mechs pick up speed to slam into buildings after running, failing to turn, and falling in the streets.

[Valaska]

Overdone, Eridani Light Horse please.

[Mousehold]

Doc Sav, on 05 August 2012 - 09:07 PM, said:

Non-Japanese asians almost completely vanished? I think House Liao of the Capellan Confederation would be unhappy to hear you say that. Indians (as in people from India) exist as the primary population of several Draconis Combine planets, and probably exist elsewhere as well. Indians like Native Americans are shown in several books. I don't know how many or which books you have read, but one of the underlying assumptions is that racial lines are not drawn very strictly between houses at all, except in the ruling families. For instance, the Draconis Combine sure does contain plenty of blond and red haired people, even at the highest levels of office (Source: Pretty much any novel) FWL has entire planets where the primary populations are descended from Mexicans or blacks, and the Clans have black people too. It's one of the not-so-ridiculous BT facts: When people of all races expand to small colonies, you would expect to see all kinds ~750 years later when those colonies have become empires.

You're telling me about trees and I'm telling you about a forest. All I'm saying is that the political factions in Battletech were obviously created by a bunch of white American nerds from the 1980s.

[Skylarr]

Mousehold, on 05 August 2012 - 02:54 PM, said:

Has anyone considered how off population demographics are in the Battletech universe? Between Marik, Steiner, Davion and the Clans it's like 80% Caucasian. Indians don't exist, and non-Japanese Asians almost completely vanished.

I do not think this is totally true. I would say that 50% of all characters mentioned in novels and source books are Caucasian. An the other 50% is mixed.

If you read the source books all the races of terra have populated worlds. To me it does appear there are more Caucasians.

[Tsar Bomba]

In the 31st century the primary form of locomotion for military vehicles will be based on the inherently unstable design stemming from a quadruped's legs that were forced to become biped legs due to the organism's need to stand up and use tools and look over tall grasses for predators.

[Grendel408]

Maybe not ridiculous... but odd fact of BattleTech:
Story authors are obsessed with hot redheaded women Which goes to say they all have great taste in women, problem is most redheads are frakkin crazy...

Another odd fact:
Standard democratic governments (like those of today [the present]) don't work in the future, but feudilism works like a charm (except in the FWL lol) for the most part...

One more ridiculous fact:
Currently militaries utilize sniper rifles that can fire between 350m-1200m (depending on calliber).. maybe I should just bring with me a .50cal sniper rifle onto the field and get some headshots

[Skylarr]

Grendel408, on 06 August 2012 - 05:55 PM, said:

One more ridiculous fact:
Currently militaries utilize sniper rifles that can fire between 350m-1200m (depending on calliber).. maybe I should just bring with me a .50cal sniper rifle onto the field and get some headshots

In Mechwarrior a Sniper Rifle has a 700m range. You are lucky if it does 1 point of Mech damage. Most small arms will not penetrate Mech armor.

[Sidney]

Mousehold, on 06 August 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

You're telling me about trees and I'm telling you about a forest. All I'm saying is that the political factions in Battletech were obviously created by a bunch of white American nerds from the 1980s.

Well, the point of the game was to be a 'western' approach to the 'mech' manga out of Japan.

I don't think it's necessarially racist, considering that while it's very much a 'future of the 80s', the political factions aren't. They're medival. Battletech has been stated to have been a concept of juxtapositioning two contrasting periods: The European Medivial Dark Ages and a futuristic setting.

All the factions can be traced back to their real world warring counterparts of the middle ages, circa 1000AD:

-The Star League is the fallen Roman Empire
-The Federated Suns are the anglo-saxons who had been invaded by the French (Hence both English and French influences)
-The Lyran Commonwealth is the germanic states
-Draconis Combine is Imperial Japan
-The Cappellan Confederation is China, which had been reuinted under a single dynasty
-The Free Worlds League is the Slavic States
-The Clans are the Mongols
-And, finally, Comstar was the Catholic Church, right down to the religious order and (at least appearing) to try to maintain neutrality, protect knowledge and offering hope.

In fact, the split between the Roman Catholic church on Terra and the Catholic Church on New Avalon in the Federated Suns even mimics the split between the Catholic and Orthodox churches after the Western and Eastern Roman Empires fell.

Now, I'll admit, I'm Canadian- and white- so my knowledge of India circa 1000AD isn't very good, but it's my understanding that this was a very 'dark' time for India, and its main contribution to the world at that point was Buddhism which had spread to China. Likewise, the Byzantine Empire had already fallen as noted.

That could be my Western education's bias, of course, and if India was a major player on the world stage during the Middle Ages, please feel free to correct me.

EDIT: Forgot to add that it was Jordan Weisman that explained the concept of Battletech, just like the game "Crimson Skies" was a combination of the WWI time period with Pirates, so too was Battletech the future with the Medival Ages.

The combination can also be seen with Mechwarriors being knights- owners of land that were of nobility, while the unwashed common peasant are infantry or vehicle crews.

Edited by Sidney, 06 August 2012 - 06:37 PM.

[Deadeye935]

Exilyth, on 30 July 2012 - 03:15 PM, said:

- Space ships weighting in at multiple thousands of tons can travel faster than light by using a ridiculously small amount of energy.

Actually the jump ships fold space, very different than speed of light.

[Melcyna]

Skylarr, on 06 August 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

In Mechwarrior a Sniper Rifle has a 700m range. You are lucky if it does 1 point of Mech damage. Most small arms will not penetrate Mech armor.

This part is fine...

what made NO SENSE whatsoever is why the larger caliber weapon in the Battlemech loses their effective range at a rate SEVERAL TIMES that of infantry weapon.

ie: an infantry sniper rifle essentially maintain effective range to 700m, but a battlemech machine gun which is a misnomer given they are technically autocannons for some reason bleeds out or completely incapable of maintaining effective damage beyond just 100m?

This incidentally is the opposite of the physical logic, since heavier mass tend to be better for longer range engagement since they lose less energy as they travel in atmospheric condition, assuming similar dimension.

Larger caliber weapon like in vehicles have range AN ORDER OF MAGNITUDE larger than the infantry equivalent since the larger weapon tend to pack increased ratio of charge to projectile weight as well, plus the heavier vehicle is a more stable firing platform than a human body which is inherently unsuited for stable firing posture, now of course we have a catch here in that the mechs uses HUMANOID shapes here which unfortunately share the human weakness in this regard in terms of stability for firing position.

but this does not justify why they have shorter effective range for their weapon than infantry equivalent.

Edited by Melcyna, 06 August 2012 - 07:01 PM.

[Skylarr]

Melcyna, on 06 August 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

This part is fine...

what made NO SENSE whatsoever is why the larger caliber weapon in the Battlemech loses their effective range at a rate SEVERAL TIMES that of infantry weapon.

ie: an infantry sniper rifle essentially maintain effective range to 700m, but a battlemech machine gun which is a misnomer given they are technically autocannons for some reason bleeds out or completely incapable of maintaining effective damage beyond just 100m?

This incidentally is the opposite of the physical logic, since heavier mass tend to be better for longer range engagement since they lose less energy as they travel in atmospheric condition, assuming similar dimension.

Larger caliber weapon like in vehicles have range AN ORDER OF MAGNITUDE larger than the infantry equivalent since the larger weapon tend to pack increased ratio of charge to projectile weight as well, plus the heavier vehicle is a more stable firing platform than a human body which is inherently unsuited for stable firing posture, now of course we have a catch here in that the mechs uses HUMANOID shapes here which unfortunately share the human weakness in this regard in terms of stability for firing position.

but this does not justify why they have shorter effective range for their weapon than infantry equivalent.

Maybe the designer are saying that weapons sacrificed range so they can penetrate Mech armor?

Edited by Skylarr, 06 August 2012 - 07:07 PM.

[Melcyna]

It doesn't make sense because that defies physics.

essentially what you are saying is that they sacrifice effective range to somehow create a projectile with MASSIVE kinetic energy at point blank.... but that massive kinetic energy somehow bleeds out after few hundred meters.

in which case the question becomes, WHERE DOES IT GO?

if you have a weapon capable of ejecting a projectile with such a MASSIVE energy, how does it BLEED this energy out so rapidly in a mere few hundred meters?

[Sidney]

Melcyna, on 06 August 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

what made NO SENSE whatsoever is why the larger caliber weapon in the Battlemech loses their effective range at a rate SEVERAL TIMES that of infantry weapon.

Well, a Gauss Rifle is one of the longest reaching weapons. The larger the laser, the greater the range as well.

The only time you really see this is autocanons and machine guns.

Autocannons vary in size. Some UAC5's have been cited as being larger than LBx10 barrels for example- the larger Autocannons deal increased damage either by using larger rounds, or more rounds in the burst.

So I like the theory I've seen others suggest where an AC20 has a shorter range not becaue it does physically, but through the longer burst and more recoil, it's difficult to keep the burst of rounds grouped together tight enough at longer ranges.

But that's just trying to reason a square peg into a round hole. The TT states right out of the box that ranges have been drastically reduced so that the game can be played on a table instead of a garage's floor.

The novel and fluff has most (if not all weapons) having signficantly greater range- the RPG triples all ranges for 'mechs, and when infantry use SRMs, machine guns and small lasers (rather than being mounted on a vehicle) they reach even further out- around 1Km for all three.

It's just a constraint that's necessary so hexes aren't large enough for entire companies of 'mechs and there's a reason to get close and melee.

[AXE MURDERER]

-In 1140 years, people haven't figured out how to stop beating others up for lunch money.
-War has been changed so that instead of a planet-wracking war every 30 years, we have a known-universe-wracking war every 100
-Christianity still exists (I'm sorry, but Jesus OUGHT to have come by NOW)
-Clanners decided best way to divvy up stuff was killing each other (Might Makes Right still in full effect)
-LAMs. Need I say more?

[Melcyna]

Sidney, on 06 August 2012 - 07:17 PM, said:

Well, a Gauss Rifle is one of the longest reaching weapons. The larger the laser, the greater the range as well.

The only time you really see this is autocanons and machine guns.

Autocannons vary in size. Some UAC5's have been cited as being larger than LBx10 barrels for example- the larger Autocannons deal increased damage either by using larger rounds, or more rounds in the burst.

So I like the theory I've seen others suggest where an AC20 has a shorter range not becaue it does physically, but through the longer burst and more recoil, it's difficult to keep the burst of rounds grouped together tight enough at longer ranges.

But that's just trying to reason a square peg into a round hole. The TT states right out of the box that ranges have been drastically reduced so that the game can be played on a table instead of a garage's floor.

The novel and fluff has most (if not all weapons) having signficantly greater range- the RPG triples all ranges for 'mechs, and when infantry use SRMs, machine guns and small lasers (rather than being mounted on a vehicle) they reach even further out- around 1Km for all three.

It's just a constraint that's necessary so hexes aren't large enough for entire companies of 'mechs and there's a reason to get close and melee.

Oh i know the main reason they stated there, don't worry.. in fact we had to repeat this routine everytime.

but i love messing around with Skylarr everytime he tries to come up with sensible explanation, if for nothing else than because i love shooting down arguments with some physics and logic.

Just a correction there though, technically the AC20 argument having more recoil and longer burst only holds to an extent... the one question some other guy previously mentioned when this argument was brought up for example was, 'why can't they let the AC-20 fire slower burst then to get it to hit further?'

and naturally the other question became, why didn't they just mount the AC-20 on a more stable platform to allow it to fire the burst without losing as much accuracy in the first place.

That would mean an AC-20 mounted on a more stable platform like a heavy tank would become a monstrous AC with long range.

now of course they had gameplay balance in mind first and physical sensibility second (if they cared at all) since what's the point of the game if it's gameplay balance is whacked out but it's lore is physically sound.

Still, many things don't hold up in general...

for example if you take LRM range as 1000m and then triple that, that's still pitifully short to most missile range.
if you take gauss rifle with 700m as base range and triple that, our gun still exceed that and that's just with regular gunpowder charge using what's likely shell caliber a fraction of it.

But what i don't understand the most though, is why didn't they just increase the boardgame hex range representation...

ie: if they simply triple the range in the RPG, then the tabletop equivalent of the board with each hex representing triple the hex range of the old design would achieve essentially the same thing within the same space for boardgame, there are complications of course to this in some parts... but that is one of the old question i kept pondering for a long time.

Edited by Melcyna, 06 August 2012 - 07:31 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

I feel obligated to straighten out a few things.

1 - Feudalism is an arbitrary and essentially meaningless term. Taken the way most people seem to use it, it pretty much never existed outside of some Renaissance-era revisionist historical and bureaucratic writings. There was never any feudal "system" as such, and the only really consistent thing with regard to what most people would consider to be feudal is that "it varied." As a rule of thumb, it is basically impossible to find something that is referred to as feudal that you can't just refer to without feudal tacked on. A feudal knight, or a knight. A feudal castle, or a castle. A feudal levy or a levy. The examples could continue almost indefinitely. Even feudal Japan you can use other, more accurate descriptions for (though admittedly I'm no expert on Japanese history).

2 - The Black Death did indeed contribute mightily to the end of the monopoly of power held by the knightly classes. It did so primarily for economic reasons: when the workers were a scarce commodity, suddenly they gained a much stronger bargaining position than they'd had prior. If there is a surplus population, a landowner can simply fire you and replace you if you want higher wages. If there is a scarcity of workers, then he has to bargain with you since he can't replace you and he needs your labor.

3 - The Byzantines weren't. They were the Romans, they were still around c. AD 1000 (Constantinople only fell to the Turks in 1453, four centuries after the mentioned time when they allegedly weren't around anymore), and they had a sophisticated intellectual tradition (including steam technology, advanced chemical weapons, alternative military technologies such as advanced lamellar armor patterns, systematic military traditions and treatises, etc.). The Plague of Justinian pretty much cut the empire's tax base in half (much of it was concentrated on the coasts, which were hardest hit), while the military requirements remained the same, thereby devastating the empire's budget. This more than any other reason contributed to the losses of territory against Islam and the eventual demise of the empire some thousand years later (the plague recurred many times over the next few centuries, and by that time most of the territorial losses had happened).

4 - The Church wasn't (especially, but not exclusively, after 1054). Even before any kind of real or permanent division among the churches, the language barrier (and the attendant disagreements of attitude and practice) were established at a pretty early time. The Latin world tended toward monolithic, autocratic church authority, while the rest of Christendom tended toward the vernacular, with conciliar attitudes toward church authority and plenty of local autonomy. Even the political situation was widely different, with the Latin church of necessity being forced more and more into a politcal, secular role, while the rest of the church could rely on the order and safety provided both by the Roman Empire in Constantinople and, to a certain extent on the various Islamic states that later arose (though given their propensity for violence and persecution, the church was always precarious in those places that had the misfortune to fall to the Muslims). The lack of strong central authority in the Latin world pretty much entirely explains the rise of the Latin church as a secular power (and the rise of strong western European monarchies corresponds nicely with the decline of the secular power of the Latin church).

[Freeride Forever]

Brenden, on 31 July 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

-They use metric still
-When a battlemech is cored, it does NOT go nuclear like most clear reactors do when damaged
-They can jump using jets, but not by crouching their legs and then suddenly flexing upward
-Pirates and Ninjas are still warring with eachother.

So obviously you're no engineer. I see Theodor already gave you a lesson, but I was wondering if you could give us one. What would a more scientifically advanced society of humans use in place of the best current measurement system where all quantities are either multiples of, or divisible by 10? I suspect you reside somewhere inside the USA since the only country I know of, that calls itself developed yet has its head so far up its *** that it still uses the retarded Imperial system (where there are 5280 feet in a mile because its units were derived from places like the body parts of a monarch), is the USA. The metric system, deriving its quantities from universal constants & multiplying or dividing them by 10, is superior to any other that has existed before it and is the most elegant, simple & effective way to do the job for us that it does. You may have thought from deep within' your little bubble that the US is ahead of the rest of the world in that regard just like many of its citizens foolishly believe about so many other things for reasons like just 'cuz "Dubya" said so, and Dubya said he's a man of "God", and Dubya said "GOD" SAID SO!!! If you are in the US, your country is moving away from the obnoxious & confusing Imperial system and in to the future. It's not the other way around where the rest of the developed world is moving towards the Imperial system. So since you never stated what was wrong with the metric system, why it shouldn't be used in the future, or what should be used in its place I was just wondering the answers to those questions. One time, here in Canada, there was this little **** box of a car drivin' around with a yellow sticker on it that said "Metric is stupid." Now I suppose that yellow was a fitting color for such a coward too afraid to make the switch. I wish I had a Mad Cat that day. Evolve or die.

I'd also like to know how a flight using sustained thrust is less effective than one with instantaneous thrust. How high can you jump? How far can you fall? Why doesn't an airplane use its landing gear to jump off the runway? How much force over the full stroke of a mech leg, using hydraulics/pneumatics/servos do you think it would take to make the whole machine jump any appreciable/useful distance? The forces on the entire lower half of the mech would be hugely detrimental leading to fatigue related fractures, blown bearings & seals & broken pilot backs. Jet/rocket engines produce huge amounts of thrust in small, simple & lightweight packages. Even if the mechanized systems in a giant walking tank could reach the efficiencies of a grasshopper, the flight still goes uncontrolled without sustained thrust, & shock loads on landing would be much higher. The P&W F135 engine (which is a jet engine, i.e. a turbofan, not a rocket) delivers over 20 tons (which is not a metric unit by the way) of thrust while weighing under 2 tons. Short of anti-gravity technology rockets are the best thing for the job.

Pirates and ninjas fight with each other?