950 replies to this topic

[Melcyna]

Python46, on 08 August 2012 - 08:45 AM, said:

Melcyna, your arguments on space battles are irrelevant and at least 1 "fact" you posted is exceptionally inaccurate. first, the speed of light is 186,000 feet/sec, not 300,000 km/sec. your estimate is several times the speed of light. your second issue is that you talk about your overwhelming force against his far inferior force. perhaps you weren't paying attention to ANY of the game background or ANY of the books. until the clans return to the Inner Sphere, there are VERY FEW space worthy warships still there. the SLDF cowards took most of them when they left, and stupid commanders got many of the remaining ones destroyed by not protecting them. they are now(3049) rarely seen outside their hope patrol zones(usually capital worlds) of each Successor House. the only ships available for space combat are the dropships. and they aren't really configured for it. so your assumption of controlling jump points is irrelevant. there just aren't the ships to do it with.

as to your assertions about oceans, if you mean to control them on a planet, you'd have to haul naval vessels around in dropships and i seriously doubt you could manage more than 1 or 2 sizable vessels in 1 dropship, and even then, i don't know how you would get them out. they aren't designed for something that large. remember that our aircraft carriers are something in the neighborhood of 100,000 tons displacement. or 1,000 times the weight of an atlas.

and for whoever talked about a communications company stopping a war dead in it's tracks, stop and think about that for a second and you'll understand how that is possible. interplanetary communications tech exists almost solely in the hands of COMSTAR, in the BT universe. so how are you going to let your leaders know you need more help, if you're losing a battle, if COMSTAR doesn't let you send messages? you're going to have to send a messenger, via dropship, to one of the jump points, to hopefully catch a jumpship, which then jumps to another star system, where either you have direct access to your leadership and reinforcements or you have to try to send the communique from another COMSTAR center, or jump again. keep in mind it usually takes 2 or more days to travel from planetside to a jump point. and, if you have to jump again, it takes another week to recharge the sail, each time.

that goes back to another statement made, about it taking very little energy to make the jump. i'm not sure what your definition of very little energy is, but if you don't get much out of deploying a solar sail that would probably cover a circle with a radius of a dozen city blocks, for a week, there's probably something wrong with your technology, beyond it being lacking in feasibility. the amount of radiation from the average star is huge, out in space. collecting it would allow you to store vast quantities of energy.

Someone else already pointed that speed of light is in fact roughly 300 000km/second, and dear god may i ask that we PLEASE use metric... imperial units just hurts the head when trying to calculate anything since all standard in scientific formula constants and the like are tuned to metric (SI) and it's really annoying having to convert the parameter from imperial to metric.

And second,
"as to your assertions about oceans, if you mean to control them on a planet, you'd have to haul naval vessels around in dropships and i seriously doubt you could manage more than 1 or 2 sizable vessels in 1 dropship,"

I think you mean JUMPSHIP not DROPSHIP here...

dropship can't carry capital vessel that i know of nor could it jump, the smallest capital vessel wouldn't fit there given the massive difference in mass between a capital vessel and a dropship.

nor would they need to... capital vessel have their own jump drive and did NOT NEED jumpship in the first place.

Now let's address what do we do when we have no capital ship around... which you are correct in that IS had almost none until later.

3 things immediately come to mind:
1. If they still uses the civilian vessels around (and judging from the fact that it seems interstellar trade and transport still functions during this period this had to be true to an extent), then the most obvious thing would be arming them (which always happens in a war btw, sooner or later, incidentally you can search for history on what our predecessor did with armed civilian and merchant vessel, the history is VERY fascinating, the length and ingenuity that mankind goes when pushed by war ).

2. On the smaller scale, they most certainly have functional dropships... and what are dropships? armed mech transport heavily armored and armed to defend itself in some design, replace the mech complement with aerospace and the supporting system and what do we get?

Voila, instant adhoc aerospace carrier.

3. And this is an unfortunate side effect of their own attempt to somewhat justify their jumpship mechanism,

Since the areas in which jump drive can arrive when near a star is limited, especially when within the system with extensive layers of gravity well, and since THEIR OWN LORE describes these areas are rather limited in space for these jump points in the system's gravity well, then these points are effectively a choke point for the holder of the system.

If they arrive WITHOUT using these jump points then they are arriving outside the system, and will take ages to get to the planet in question, more than ample time for the space navy defending it to intercept it.

if they arrive WITH the jump points in the system then they essentially arrive into a choke point zone that are logically the only one that really needs to be held by whoever wants control of the system.

Some of the most obvious things ppl would do with such choke points would be to:
A. mine the hell out of the place, and if someone hostile arrived into the system, arm the mines (either automatically or manually, use laser signal if you have to, it's not like they can accelerate that fast with crewed ships) and you have the time you need to then muster your fleet defender to intercept them in the system.

B. fortify the choke area.... where best do you build space fort or defensive structures possibly for housing the defending space navy itself? Yep... RIGHT ON THE VERY SAME AREA as these jump points, the easier jump point the better of course.

So in all cases, it's most certainly viable to control the flow of ships in and out of the system, or to muster ships needed to defend or attack one at least if the nation in question actually have these assets.

But if they can attack with mech battalions with their dropships across the galaxy then they MOST certainly can do the above...

Sidney, on 08 August 2012 - 08:16 AM, said:

Well, the game itself was conceived first, and the lore came afterwards. (I think I read once it allegedly started on a napkin in a bar).

As for the detail in Techmanual, especially the engines, that's Michael Miller- or "Cray" on the Battletech forums.

He's a materials engineer by day, freelance writer for Battletech by night. He's taken on the difficult task of trying to rectify Battlech with reality- or at least close enough that it still seems somewhat plausible. Or at least, that's what he tries to do when writing the technical fluff he's usually assigned- basically, as far as I know, most, if not all, of the 'how this works' sections are assigned to him.

He can't contradict earlier works, of course- I remember reading posts by Cray a couple of times where he would 'love' to rewrite how lasers work on armour: Penetrate the first layer, where the heat and steam of melting armour causes reptures and explosions. He noted, however, that far too many novels depict melted armour 'running like water' to do that. It's firmly established lasers simply melt armour away- which requires far more energy to do.

As mentioned, he's the one that reconciled 'stackpoling' engines with the game in Techmanual . 'Mechs use cold fusion engines, which theoretically can't go 'nuclear' like in the novels- so he wrote in Techmanual 'in character' that it's a misonception they go 'nuclear'. Instead it's a rare occurence where pressure and steam escape...similiar to a boiler, as I'm sure you know. You mentioned the writing in Techmanual afterall

If you have questions on 'how things work' in Battletech, definately go pop over to the Battletech forums and ask there. Don't worry... Cray will find you sooner or later, and seems always up for a debate when it comes to physics.

Interesting, that does explain the odd uneven coherence on the lore material...

Edited by Melcyna, 08 August 2012 - 02:20 PM.

[Philldoe]

I feel a lot of you people do not understand the reality and physics of combat. Take melee for example. "Why bring an axe to a laser fight?" Because that axe takes one swing. That's it. One swing and you have just lobed a mechs leg/arm/head off. Yes I undrstand that at range the axe is useless, that's why you hug against cover. Melee is deadly in urban combat where you can hide behinde things.

[SakuranoSenshi]

Melcyna, on 05 August 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

With light speed being about 300 000 km/s this gives you about slightly over 3 second at 1 million kilometer to displace your jumpship, dropship, etc to avoid a hit ie: you have over 3 seconds at 1 million kilometer to move the bulk of the ship out of the laser's predicted path assuming the laser is fired directly at where your last position was (since you can't tell where exactly the laser is coming towards you have to guess this unless you have an FTL sensor).</p>

So ask yourself, how fast can one still move the massive ship, while keeping the ship intact of course, and realistically 'dodge' the laser and from what range?

And of course if they just fired multiple laser each aimed at a specific deviation from central beam to catch multiple possible position that the ship of your mass can be at that distance then you are BONED.

This is 'realistic' space battle, incidentally. Bracketing 'For The Win'. Once someone has a line of sight to you, if we have SoL weapons capable of significant damage, you don't run away, you try and kill them before they kill you and hope your people/computers are better at the job and your weapons adequate to the task. Not really going to be able to 'dodge' anything because your motion is predictable and any jinking you do, even at top speed, is a small actual deviation at that range, easily accounted for with bracketing (and likely to diminish with each successful hit, too).Of course, if running away is as simple as 'Hit warp, please' we have a very different scenario but I seem to recall that in BT it takes them a few days to recharge for a jump to somewhere else. If you come out of your jump somewhere the enemy either expected or covered anyway, you're going to have to fight.

[Sidney]

Philldoe, on 08 August 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:

I feel a lot of you people do not understand the reality and physics of combat. Take melee for example. "Why bring an axe to a laser fight?" Because that axe takes one swing. That's it. One swing and you have just lobed a mechs leg/arm/head off. Yes I undrstand that at range the axe is useless, that's why you hug against cover. Melee is deadly in urban combat where you can hide behinde things.

Punching does not only cost you any weight or criticals, but it is also six times liklier to hit the head than an axe.

[SakuranoSenshi]

Melee remains pretty silly; it's blatantly "Rule of Cool".

[Skylarr]

SakuranoSenshi, on 08 August 2012 - 01:44 PM, said:

LOL No. You're way off and he's right; c is ~300,000 km/s.


P.S. If you want it in Imperial units, which you seem to, it's 186,000 miles per second, not feet.

(And does anyone else find the editor annoying now?)

No he made a simple mistake.

Melcyna, on 08 August 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

And second,
"as to your assertions about oceans, if you mean to control them on a planet, you'd have to haul naval vessels around in dropships and i seriously doubt you could manage more than 1 or 2 sizable vessels in 1 dropship,"

I think you mean JUMPSHIP not DROPSHIP here...

dropship can't carry capital vessel that i know of nor could it jump, the smallest capital vessel wouldn't fit there given the massive difference in mass between a capital vessel and a dropship.

He is correct. The large the vessel the larger the Dropship that will be needed. Dropships carry the cargo.

Quote

In the BattleTech universe a DropShip is defined as any spaceship massing between 200 and 100,000 tons that is itself incapable of faster-than-light (FTL) travel. They essentially conduct all other aspects of space travel, including transit between planets and Jump Points and planetary landings (hence their name). For FTL interstellar movement, they dock with JumpShips by means of a Docking collar.

Jumpships carry the dropships between jump points

Quote

In the BattleTech universe, JumpShips are the pivotal element of interstellar travel. They facilitate faster-than-light (FTL) movement - "jumping" from one Jump Point to another, typically to a different star system, covering light-years in mere seconds. Docking Hardpoints allow JumpShips to carry DropShips along for the Jump, effectively serving as a jump tug.
Jumping with their load of DropShips is about the only task that JumpShips are designed to perform. It is the DropShips that handle all movement of goods and passengers within a star system, namely between planets and jump points, while the large and fragile JumpShip remains at the jump point.

Quote

nor would they need to... capital vessel have their own jump drive and did NOT NEED jumpship in the first place.

He is talking about Navel ships not Capital Ships. A Capital SHip would be a Warship. IS Warships are not in use until the late 3050

Quote

Now let's address what do we do when we have no capital ship around... which you are correct in that IS had almost none until later.

3 things immediately come to mind:
1. If they still uses the civilian vessels around (and judging from the fact that it seems interstellar trade and transport still functions during this period this had to be true to an extent), then the most obvious thing would be arming them (which always happens in a war btw, sooner or later, incidentally you can search for history on what our predecessor did with armed civilian and merchant vessel, the history is VERY fascinating, the length and ingenuity that mankind goes when pushed by war ).

I will agree with you on this point, but, they will have no armor and will die to anything that engages them.

Quote

2. On the smaller scale, they most certainly have functional dropships... and what are dropships? armed mech transport heavily armored and armed to defend itself in some design, replace the mech complement with aerospace and the supporting system and what do we get?

Voila, instant adhoc aerospace carrier.

It sound like you think that an unlimited amount of Aerospace and Dropships are made each year. There are not enough to cover every major task force. There are dropships that carry only aerospace.

Quote

3. And this is an unfortunate side effect of their own attempt to somewhat justify their jumpship mechanism,

Since the areas in which jump drive can arrive when near a star is limited, especially when within the system with extensive layers of gravity well, and since THEIR OWN LORE describes these areas are rather limited in space for these jump points in the system's gravity well, then these points are effectively a choke point for the holder of the system.

If they arrive WITHOUT using these jump points then they are arriving outside the system, and will take ages to get to the planet in question, more than ample time for the space navy defending it to intercept it.

if they arrive WITH the jump points in the system then they essentially arrive into a choke point zone that are logically the only one that really needs to be held by whoever wants control of the system.

Some of the most obvious things ppl would do with such choke points would be to:
A. mine the hell out of the place, and if someone hostile arrived into the system, arm the mines (either automatically or manually, use laser signal if you have to, it's not like they can accelerate that fast with crewed ships) and you have the time you need to then muster your fleet defender to intercept them in the system.

B. fortify the choke area.... where best do you build space fort or defensive structures possibly for housing the defending space navy itself? Yep... RIGHT ON THE VERY SAME AREA as these jump points, the easier jump point the better of course.

So in all cases, it's most certainly viable to control the flow of ships in and out of the system, or to muster ships needed to defend or attack one at least if the nation in question actually have these assets.

But if they can attack with mech battalions with their dropships across the galaxy then they MOST certainly can do the above...


Interesting, that does explain the odd uneven coherence on the lore material...

Jump Points I do not think you understand how big these Jump Points are? I will say that a realms Capitals planet is defended with Aerospace at the Jump Point 24/7 but not every major planet. No one would have the resources for this. There were several times in the past were raiders lander on these Capital planets.

[Melcyna]

Wait, so he actually thought i meant bringing OCEAN GOING NAVAL ship inside drop ship???

What??? Hold on a sec, what would be the point of that?

And on the point of jump point, if patrolling them with vessel is not possible, then we do the exact same thing ANYONE else did in the war when faced with significant area that needs to be restricted from access or at least controlled.

ie: monitor point, sensor posts... THAT is the whole point of them, so we don't have to place a sentry or patrol at every area, and neither of these are expensive compared to patrols.

which incidentally is the whole point of MINES, since mines are far cheaper and easier to mass produce than any ship also happens to be the reason why mines are so popular back in WW1 and WW2.

note that in here: the point of mines is NOT to prevent access completely on areas restricted (with enough effort and time one can always demine any minefield), the point is to SLOW them down and prevent a significant force from bum rushing before you can do something about them, also to channel them if at all possible into areas you WANT THEM TO GO to, and avoid areas you prefer them to stay out of.

Incidentally,

if we arm the civilian vessel then we armor them if at all possible with what we have at hand, not like it matters that much when the opposing force have NO SHIP.

use the cargo space for something useful, ie: useful military value... and since the ship will not be carrying cargo, the extra capacity in weight we shift to carrying armor and ordnance.

We did this plenty of times during the war incidentally in the history, they are not generally comparable to properly designed warships of course, but they are MUCH BETTER than having NO FLEET whatsoever.

And on the subject of dropship and aerospace production

GUESS WHAT?

if you can waste less production capacity producing battlemech, you can make more of the 2 above... especially aerospace given they share many components tech.

[SakuranoSenshi]

Skylarr, on 08 August 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

No he made a simple mistake.

No, he made an incredible error, solely by way of trying to correct someone else who was correct, in the first place, and added into it the pointless use of another system of units. He got off lightly with the mostly amused corrections.

[Nebfer]

Oi... Some inaccurate yet accurate statements at the same time...

1: True B-tech ACs have odd range profiles, though it can reasonably explained due to recoil and or accuracy issues, though not perfect...
However B-tech autocannons have far superior velocity and ROFs compared to current real world weapons. Also note many AC-20 class weapons in the fluff are 100 to 120mm based, though their are thoughs that are larger. Theirs also at lest three AC-5 type weapons that are in the 105mm or larger range. Ammo Wise their fluffed as using HEAP, with the novels often mentioning a DU tip, as such I have a feeling B-tech ammo is some what smiler to HEIAP ammo in use today.

An interesting note on velocity, though a bit odd is the fact that a B-tech MG and AC-20 both have a range in space of around 108km, yet a "Rifle cannon" (a weapon representing the weapons we use today, also noted as coming smooth bore types) dose not have the velocity to be considered effective in space...

2: Range true B-tech has a odd habit of using oddly short ranged, particularly when you not infantry weapons have weapons that can reach out to 2km or more (I can cite to references in which infantry snipers have claimed kills in the 3km range). However B-tech also has rules and a bunch of interesting quirks that B-tech weapons can fire further than it often says it can. ground vehicles firing at aircraft can engage them at altitudes up to 4 times higher than their weapons can shoot on the ground... Another quirk is the fact that the elevation of the target is not directly taken into account, as such it's plausible for a small laser to engage a target on a level 50 hex (300m high)...
Then you have extreme range and Line of sight ranges (LOS), both of which extend the ranges of b-tech weapons, though LOS dose not work with all weapons for some strange reason, it's rules state that it can be used no mater how big the playing field is (though recommends the use of a line of a visual range rule...). Logically this means a weapon could hit out to the horizon via this rule. Then theirs infantry weapons, a small laser can not hit anything past 120 meters, but a Infantrymen with a Mauser IIC laser rifle can take pot shots on the vehicle at 1.5km?

One explanation is that it could be effective range for fighting other vehicles with "mech" grade armor (though dose not explain why no range jumps with units that do not have it...), and that ECM also hampers detection range. The ECM angle while never properly used is mentioned from time to time, at lest indirectly.

3: Then theirs this...

Brenden, on 31 July 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

- Their aerospace fighters cannot exceed Mach 1

This is quite blatantly false
3a A few DA novels mention ASFs flying at hypersonic speeds (Mach 5+) as low as 500m above a city. Baring that the fact that they can Single stage to orbit means they can go faster than mach 1 (rules wise they can potentially single stage to the freaking moon and back!).
3b The Rules also indicate this is false, the low altitude hexes are 500m across and 10 seconds long, which put them at 180kph per hex traveled, with max velocity being twice safe thrust (a fighter with a velocity of 12 is traveling at 2,160kph or MACH 2 at 10km altitude). With the High altitude rules allowing for speeds above Mach 16!

4: Energy weapons in B-tech are absurdly powerful, using the known composition of B-tech armor and assume all of it is melted B-tech armor requires about 195 megajoules of energy per damage point. Now not all of the armor is likely melted so one could drop that number by a bit, perhaps say about 1/5th that to about 40 megajoules per damage point (a small laser would have a yield of around 120 megajoules) seems reasonable, even this number makes real world lasers look like toys in terms of output (the Air-Born Laser was supposedly a 1 megajoule laser, with the lasing elements massing around 18 tons compared to the small las having 100+ times the energy and less than 1/40th the mass of the ABL...)

[SnowDragon]

Helbourne, on 04 August 2012 - 06:24 AM, said:

Yeah Battletech technology has always made me wonder and chuckle a bit. I mean the main cannon on the M1A2 Abrams tank has an effective range of what 4000m. That is 2.5 miles. In game table top game terms you need at least 8 maps, 9 if you want the tank to be on a map. I would think that 4000m would be medium range for it, cause what ammo they use would determine max range (like laser guided rounds). Plus why are the targeting computers so stupid in battletech? I mean why does a computer take so much weight and space? clan TC = 1 ton and 1 crit slot for every 5 tons of equipment (rounded up), Inner Sphere is 1 ton and 1 crit for every 4 tons of equipment (rounded up). I mean come on now, how big are these computers and what do they use to make them?

Bricks, they make them out of bricks.

[Skylarr]

Space is 3 dimensional. They can go around it. so it takes them longer to get to you. Now they have to take this into account when calculation when your reinfocement will arrive so they can bring enough force to take your planet.

I guess you are going to place boosters on the Mines so they stay in place. Since everything in space does move over time.


Arming and armoring civilian Dropships.

You want to reinforce the existing armor on all civilian Dropships along a border just in case you go to war. You can then force those civilian Dropships to come into your employment in times of war.


So now these civilian Dropships, owned by private trading companies, cannot go across borders in times of peace to do they trading. Not to mention the added fuel cost..

You do understand that there is a limited amount of armor and weapons made every year. There is no cheat mode were you can enter a code and have unlimited resources.

If you wait until you are being invaded to arm and armor these civilian Dropships then it is to late. If you do it so you can invade another realm then the realm will notice that allot of your Dropships have gone missing for months while you are arming and armoring them.

There are limited dry dock so maybe the enemies Intel network may all notice that allot of civilian Dropships are waiting to be armed and armored.

What factories will produce the extra aerospace? You cannot just build new line or change a Mech line over to an Aerospace line. These factory line are mostly running on there own right now. The knowledge to build new ones is LostTech. A new Mech design comes from years of researching how to change an existing line.

This is also the reason why Dropships are not used in battles. A defending planets Aerospace may harass enemy Dropships when they get close to planet, but, mostly the Aerospace is trying to limit the amount of aerospace you are trying to get to the planet, or, are looking to strafe any Mechs that are being combat dropped.

Edited by Skylarr, 08 August 2012 - 09:48 PM.

[Melcyna]

Nebfer, on 08 August 2012 - 08:53 PM, said:

Oi... Some inaccurate yet accurate statements at the same time...

1: True B-tech ACs have odd range profiles, though it can reasonably explained due to recoil and or accuracy issues, though not perfect...
However B-tech autocannons have far superior velocity and ROFs compared to current real world weapons. Also note many AC-20 class weapons in the fluff are 100 to 120mm based, though their are thoughs that are larger. Theirs also at lest three AC-5 type weapons that are in the 105mm or larger range. Ammo Wise their fluffed as using HEAP, with the novels often mentioning a DU tip, as such I have a feeling B-tech ammo is some what smiler to HEIAP ammo in use today.

An interesting note on velocity, though a bit odd is the fact that a B-tech MG and AC-20 both have a range in space of around 108km, yet a "Rifle cannon" (a weapon representing the weapons we use today, also noted as coming smooth bore types) dose not have the velocity to be considered effective in space...

2: Range true B-tech has a odd habit of using oddly short ranged, particularly when you not infantry weapons have weapons that can reach out to 2km or more (I can cite to references in which infantry snipers have claimed kills in the 3km range). However B-tech also has rules and a bunch of interesting quirks that B-tech weapons can fire further than it often says it can. ground vehicles firing at aircraft can engage them at altitudes up to 4 times higher than their weapons can shoot on the ground... Another quirk is the fact that the elevation of the target is not directly taken into account, as such it's plausible for a small laser to engage a target on a level 50 hex (300m high)...
Then you have extreme range and Line of sight ranges (LOS), both of which extend the ranges of b-tech weapons, though LOS dose not work with all weapons for some strange reason, it's rules state that it can be used no mater how big the playing field is (though recommends the use of a line of a visual range rule...). Logically this means a weapon could hit out to the horizon via this rule. Then theirs infantry weapons, a small laser can not hit anything past 120 meters, but a Infantrymen with a Mauser IIC laser rifle can take pot shots on the vehicle at 1.5km?

One explanation is that it could be effective range for fighting other vehicles with "mech" grade armor (though dose not explain why no range jumps with units that do not have it...), and that ECM also hampers detection range. The ECM angle while never properly used is mentioned from time to time, at lest indirectly.

3: Then theirs this...

This is quite blatantly false
3a A few DA novels mention ASFs flying at hypersonic speeds (Mach 5+) as low as 500m above a city. Baring that the fact that they can Single stage to orbit means they can go faster than mach 1 (rules wise they can potentially single stage to the freaking moon and back!).
3b The Rules also indicate this is false, the low altitude hexes are 500m across and 10 seconds long, which put them at 180kph per hex traveled, with max velocity being twice safe thrust (a fighter with a velocity of 12 is traveling at 2,160kph or MACH 2 at 10km altitude). With the High altitude rules allowing for speeds above Mach 16!

4: Energy weapons in B-tech are absurdly powerful, using the known composition of B-tech armor and assume all of it is melted B-tech armor requires about 195 megajoules of energy per damage point. Now not all of the armor is likely melted so one could drop that number by a bit, perhaps say about 1/5th that to about 40 megajoules per damage point (a small laser would have a yield of around 120 megajoules) seems reasonable, even this number makes real world lasers look like toys in terms of output (the Air-Born Laser was supposedly a 1 megajoule laser, with the lasing elements massing around 18 tons compared to the small las having 100+ times the energy and less than 1/40th the mass of the ABL...)

The problem when they start chucking these massive energy number however is that they then run SMACK HEAD ON to other physical inconsistency.

for example....

if we assume a small laser has an energy output of 120MJ for example, that gives a gauss rifle slug somewhere around what 600MJ? assuming the slug does 5 times the damage as based on the weapon chart simplified damage.

Then if this armor is capable of withstanding such impact force with just a few mm... that begs the question, how does their melee weapon ever damage these armor at all?

Let's take a lance... let's pretend a 70 ton mech is carrying it, assuming the target can withstand a gauss rifle slug hit that's at least 600MJ of energy in kinetic energy that wouldn't even penetrate the armor.

That 70 ton mech therefore could be running at over 90m/s, over 300 km/h and then RAM the target head on using some form of invincible lance that doesn't break and transferring all that energy straight into the same armor point through the lance... let's also pretend the lance is FIXED onto the mech so the mech limb articulation didn't absorb some of the energy when the impact occurs... so that's 70 ton mech traveling at 300 km/h straight transferring it's mass worth of kinetic energy using a lance into the point of impact on the target.

and it would not breach the armor...

By using the figure number for energy on the weapons... we've accidentally invalidated the melee combat as useless without the use of some form of armor bypassing mechanism, or armor cutting mechanism in the melee weapon.

If the speed instead is supplied by just the mech limb like in the case of hatchet, and if the hatchet is somehow not only breach said armor but do even more damage than that, then essentially the mech limb is capable of swinging so fast... you can't even see the arm swing, depending on how heavy the hatchet is (a 6 ton hatchet effectively have to break the sound barrier to have the speed needed to even reach 600MJ ).

Similar oddity then occur when the same armor only a few mm thick, capable of withstanding direct energy hit in the order of multi hundred megajoules through a physical PARADOX of thin ablative armor which runs opposite of known physical concept breaks when the mech falls...

If the armor for some reason can break from a MUCH LOWER localized pressure as a result of falling... then logically a simple detonation of explosive charge outside the armor would achieve the exact same thing.


The more we dig deeper into it with their number, the more inconsistency we get...

incidentally on this

Quote

An interesting note on velocity, though a bit odd is the fact that a B-tech MG and AC-20 both have a range in space of around 108km, yet a "Rifle cannon" (a weapon representing the weapons we use today, also noted as coming smooth bore types) dose not have the velocity to be considered effective in space...

we run into yet another oddity.

If the AC-20 has a range of 108km in space, i assume effective range... then that means when used on atmosphere it somehow loses 99% of it's energy through atmospheric attenuation, either through friction (impossible, since even if the projectile is a FLAT WALL with parachute you can't bleed that much energy quickly), or some other magical means.

if the loss of effective range is due to BURST FIRE causing inaccuracy in firing group, then the same problem would've APPLIED STILL in space and thus makes no sense either.

Skylarr, on 08 August 2012 - 09:42 PM, said:

Space is 3 dimensional. They can go around it. so it takes them longer to get to you. Now they have to take this into account when calculation when your reinfocement will arrive so they can bring enough force to take your planet.

I guess you are going to place boosters on the Mines so they stay in place. Since everything in space does move over time.


Arming and armoring civilian Dropships.

You want to reinforce the existing armor on all civilian Dropships along a border just in case you go to war. You can then force those civilian Dropships to come into your employment in times of war.


So now these civilian Dropships, owned by private trading companies, cannot go across borders in times of peace to do they trading. Not to mention the added fuel cost..

You do understand that there is a limited amount of armor and weapons made every year. There is no cheat mode were you can enter a code and have unlimited resources.

If you wait until you are being invaded to arm and armor these civilian Dropships then it is to late. If you do it so you can invade another realm then the realm will notice that allot of your Dropships have gone missing for months while you are arming and armoring them.

There are limited dry dock so maybe the enemies Intel network may all notice that allot of civilian Dropships are waiting to be armed and armored.

What factories will produce the extra aerospace? You cannot just build new line or change a Mech line over to an Aerospace line. These factory line are mostly running on there own right now. The knowledge to build new ones is LostTech. A new Mech design comes from years of researching how to change an existing line.

This is also the reason why Dropships are not used in battles. A defending planets Aerospace may harass enemy Dropships when they get close to planet, but, mostly the Aerospace is trying to limit the amount of aerospace you are trying to get to the planet, or, are looking to strafe any Mechs that are being combat dropped.

First thing first, space is 3D, and so is YOU, and your minefield...

you realize that even in ocean depth we're already using minefield in 3 dimensional pattern right?

Why would the minefield needs to be 2 dimensional in deployment pattern to start with? Is there anything stopping you from deploying it in 3 dimensional pattern?

Second, that the enemy notice you are working on a fleet or not is irrelevant really because ambush is not a requirement or even in real consideration to start with.

That we intend to build a fleet is a LOGICAL outcome of the fact that control of mobility of the armed forces via control of the space in between them (be it sea, air, land, or space) is a given requirement to win in any military conflict. It is one of the most basic and oldest principle of war.

In another word, the only reason why no one is building a fleet here and thus not expecting a space fleet is because BT military works by an illogical sense to start with.

There is limited resources around? OF COURSE, that's EXACTLY why the focus is to shift the resources in use for constructing more of the aerospace or ships ie: assets that can help in control of space with the fleet rather than producing more battlemech which doesn't get to be used if you CAN'T reach and land them to start with.

We are not arming these merchant and civilian spaceships and returning them to the owner...

We are BUILDING a space fleet, because apparently the IS had NO warships at the early stage... we are USING these ships AS THE WARSHIP and our space fleet because THERE IS NO OTHER SHIPS or fleet around.

Whether the enemy knows about it or not matters little, what matters is that whoever has the fleet CONTROLS the space in between, if they don't know that we have a fleet... good, if they know about it then what are they gonna do about it?

That's right, all they can do is BUILD THEIR OWN FLEET, assuming they actually have common sense of course.

Edited by Melcyna, 08 August 2012 - 11:25 PM.

[SakuranoSenshi]

Common sense in Battletech? Now you've really gone off the deep end.

[Melcyna]

Touche....

what was i thinking there...

[Skylarr]

Your the one who suggested placing multiple minefield in space. I did not think you meant placing them in a flat plane. I thought you meant a cube or sphere pattern. Just was not sure how big the field would be. How much will all of these booster enhanced minefield cost to place and maintain?


So your seizing a thousand civilian Dropships. This number will depend on the number of planets along you border and how many Dropships you want per planet. I am sure your only placing them on strategic planets on or near a border.

This means hundreds of corporations will go out of business. They lost their Dropships and it will take a couple years to replace a 1000+ Dropships. How many civilians will loose their jobs? And how are you paying for this militarization of these 1000+ Dropships, and their future Upkeep.

We do not have to talk about the Jumpships assets you will need to seize or force to work for you at a reduce rate.

How many planets will be effected because there are no Dropships to move trade? Not to mention the planetary Nobles who will loose income and now have disgruntle civilians. Disgruntle civilians? Now you need to move force from your combat ready units to garrison your own disgruntle civilians.

Now you have your naval assets to fight off most attacks. Except the enemy knows he has to come in with a really large force. I hope he does not land any force. Your already spread thin on the ground. And your ground forces will have very little is supplies. It all went to the Dropships.


You stated that the other realms can also militarize civilian Dropships. An arms race. Maybe they will just hit your border worlds in the year it takes to refit all those Dropships. Now they are not in place and your Ground forces are still low in supplies.

[Melcyna]

How fast you want to militarize the vessels is entirely up to the country in question...

to begin with the ENTIRE problem manifested from the lack of logic on the part of the houses of essentially having NO FLEET after the loss of the original warships.

So essentially...

they ALL, every single one (except the clan i suppose but they are a separate matter here)... TWIDDLE their thumb with no warships, and no space fleet...

This whole deal started from the point of when their capital ship losses mounted, when the bulk of SLDF fleet left, through 1st Succession war, then through 2nd Succession war, until they lost the capability of manufacturing new warships, and until the introduction of new capital ship production after the clan problem manifested...

that ENTIRE STRETCH of period, they all sat... and effectively made ZERO effort if you discount some of the Jolly Rogers jumpships.

ZERO, effort of rebuilding their fleet using existing available vessel as warships are lost and fleet dwindle in numbers.

But let's pretend that we are handed a house with such condition already and let's ignore their past illogical action for now to focus and WHAT CAN WE DO if we are handed a house with such state.

Then start slow, take some vessels, however many one can dispense without losing the backbone of the economy flow... a pity we can't start doing this from the moment losses were clearly mounting, but hey fine.. nothing to be done about their illogical action, we'll do what we can with existing one.

However many years that may take, starting from the point in which someone is AWARE of this issue, until an actual fleet is available... any country with common sense will take if they need to survive through military power.

On the subject of minefield, how big is the minefield area we need?

As big as it needs to BUY TIME for your garrison force... because ultimately THAT IS ALL you need really. If you place a minefield large enough that forces an attacking landing force to go around it and travel 3 times the distance he would otherwise if he just goes straight from jump point to the planet in question, then that's already 3 times the time your garrison force have to prepare and intercept them or otherwise which they would not have without the mines.

That is just ONE way you can use mines, there are myriad other ways you can use them depending on what exactly do you NEED.

You need Time? Then the minefield just needs to be large enough to make them travel in an inefficient manner or slow to demine.
You want to cause Attrition damage? Then the minefield doesn't even need to be large but simply dispersed and low profile along key points that one can expect they will take to reach your planet in question assuming optimal flight course, and it will inflict it's attrition losses on their ships gradually as they try to reach your planet.

Hell.. if you are REALLY REALLY short on mines for some reason, there's one FINAL place you can put the mine that requires the lowest number necessary, with GUARANTEED hit chance on any invading dropships at least... ie:
RIGHT ON THE ORBIT OF THE PLANET AND NEAR THE PLANET ITSELF.

[Elessar]

Melcyna, on 08 August 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

....

If they arrive WITHOUT using these jump points then they are arriving outside the system, and will take ages to get to the planet in question, more than ample time for the space navy defending it to intercept it.

if they arrive WITH the jump points in the system then they essentially arrive into a choke point zone that are logically the only one that really needs to be held by whoever wants control of the system.

...

That´s not quite correct ... the Standard Jump Points are at the Zenith and the Nadir of the system.
That means, high above the plane in which the planets orbit around the star or at the same distance below it
(with the distance being calculated by the size of the star ... "heavier" stars -> more distance -> longer transit for the dropships.

If you use a non standard Jump point however,
you come out at the same distance of the star as you would with Zenith and Nadir Jump points ...
but next to the plane of the planetary orbits ... and (ideally) at the point that lies closest to your target planet.

Using a non standard jump point you therefore de facto have less time transit time to the planet than by using the standard zenith and nadir jump points.
The only problem with these non standard jump point is the fact, that the calculation of them is more time intensive and difficult, increasing the danger of (potentially fatral) misjumps.

As for Zenith and Nadir as chokepoints:
During the first 2 succession wars there has developed some kind of "gentlemens agreement" between the successor states, that jump ships are not to be attacked. That is, because the drive core of jump ships requires a rather complicated production process and therefore only few new jump ships are being produced each year.

Without this agreement the successor states would probably already have lost their ability to wage interstellar warfare, as even with this agreement in place, the production capacity lie only barely above the numbers that are required to replace losses (by combatants that don´t care about sparing jumpships, as well as by misjumps)

Therefore tactics that endanger jump ships (via waging war at zenith and nadir jump points or even mining these) are a rather problematic thing

[Theodor Kling]

I agre, the economic/ tch situation doens´t allow for real space battle fleets. Because every ship you loose is hard and costly to replace. ground troops are way cheaper, and faster to replace.
And mine fields are useless for 4 reasons:
Mining standard jump points is useless. It buys you a few hours at most. Because gravity wells are the dangerous stuff for jumps. But if there exist safe (moving ) points within the planetary plane, presumably multible body Lagrange points, then simply jumping to any point in a plane paralell to the the planetary plane in the distance of the standart points should be easy.

A minefield would need to be HUGE as already mentioned. Even those "chocke points" that only exist by convention, are huge areas, thousands of kilometers wide.

BT computer systems are bad. Various discussions about guided weapons already pointed out that they seem to be unable to produce decent iff warheads. Well guess what those mines would need

Whatever you mine.. you can only mine anything BUT the jump point. It is stated in several novels, that jump ships jumping inside another body meet a messy fate. No IFF ( even if present) would help there. So either you have to make the mindefield far away enough to be safe when jumping yourself, making it kind of pointless, because any dropship wanting to move past it could simply blast it away. ( In contrast to naval mines, mines in space are hard to hide).
Or you realy mine the jump point. Part of the cost for such a huge field is compensated, by not needing explosives, and every jumpship arriving gets blown to dust. Effective..but against all traffic. Civilian, your own supply runs, reinforcements.. all blown to dust.

[Melcyna]

Elessar, on 09 August 2012 - 02:51 AM, said:

That´s not quite correct ... the Standard Jump Points are at the Zenith and the Nadir of the system.
That means, high above the plane in which the planets orbit around the star or at the same distance below it
(with the distance being calculated by the size of the star ... "heavier" stars -> more distance -> longer transit for the dropships.

If you use a non standard Jump point however,
you come out at the same distance of the star as you would with Zenith and Nadir Jump points ...
but next to the plane of the planetary orbits ... and (ideally) at the point that lies closest to your target planet.

Using a non standard jump point you therefore de facto have less time transit time to the planet than by using the standard zenith and nadir jump points.
The only problem with these non standard jump point is the fact, that the calculation of them is more time intensive and difficult, increasing the danger of (potentially fatral) misjumps.

As for Zenith and Nadir as chokepoints:
During the first 2 succession wars there has developed some kind of "gentlemens agreement" between the successor states, that jump ships are not to be attacked. That is, because the drive core of jump ships requires a rather complicated production process and therefore only few new jump ships are being produced each year.

Without this agreement the successor states would probably already have lost their ability to wage interstellar warfare, as even with this agreement in place, the production capacity lie only barely above the numbers that are required to replace losses (by combatants that don´t care about sparing jumpships, as well as by misjumps)

Therefore tactics that endanger jump ships (via waging war at zenith and nadir jump points or even mining these) are a rather problematic thing

Sure, we can pretend they want to conserve the Jumpship, and not shoot a vessel coming into their system carrying hostile vessels loaded with troops and ground forces (uhhh... not likely).

It doesn't take more than a minute to digest that and realize it's not possible to expect such 'agreement' given the vessels are THE ONLY MEANS of waging interstellar war indeed... which is precisely why neither side can afford to avoid attacking it in a war.

There are 3 likely situation and paths:
1. Let's face it, if one side has better fleet he can therefore protect his Jumpship ... and WILL WIN, and does not need such 'agreement' as he will win while retaining his Jumpships.

2. if he does NOT have a better fleet (ie: his enemy has the better fleet) his enemy is realistically the only one who can protect his own Jumpship, and the 'agreement' will NOT BENEFIT his enemy which means his enemy has no reason to accept such 'agreement' either.

3. if NEITHER SIDE have the fleet to protect their jumpship, then the most LOGICAL outcome is that they will cease war altogether if they cannot afford the loss of the jumpship as it makes no economic sense to wage the war then.

As for non standard jump point, 2 possibilities i can think of straight out of the bat before i process that further:
A. if the risk of misjump on the point is large enough, it's possible to relegate it to low priority zone... they can always drop a perimeter warning sensor buoy in case something does arrive through it.

if the jump point is stable enough that a military force can realistically pass through it (the window of opportunity on which the jump point can be used and it's risk should be known to the holder of the system) then it is treated the same way as the standard jump point, ie:
B. we mine it as well and fortify it, if it's active on periodic time basis, then whenever it is active it is considered an even higher priority than standard jump point.

Theodor Kling, on 09 August 2012 - 03:42 AM, said:

I agre, the economic/ tch situation doens´t allow for real space battle fleets. Because every ship you loose is hard and costly to replace. ground troops are way cheaper, and faster to replace.
And mine fields are useless for 4 reasons:
Mining standard jump points is useless. It buys you a few hours at most. Because gravity wells are the dangerous stuff for jumps. But if there exist safe (moving ) points within the planetary plane, presumably multible body Lagrange points, then simply jumping to any point in a plane paralell to the the planetary plane in the distance of the standart points should be easy.

A minefield would need to be HUGE as already mentioned. Even those "chocke points" that only exist by convention, are huge areas, thousands of kilometers wide.

BT computer systems are bad. Various discussions about guided weapons already pointed out that they seem to be unable to produce decent iff warheads. Well guess what those mines would need

Whatever you mine.. you can only mine anything BUT the jump point. It is stated in several novels, that jump ships jumping inside another body meet a messy fate. No IFF ( even if present) would help there. So either you have to make the mindefield far away enough to be safe when jumping yourself, making it kind of pointless, because any dropship wanting to move past it could simply blast it away. ( In contrast to naval mines, mines in space are hard to hide).
Or you realy mine the jump point. Part of the cost for such a huge field is compensated, by not needing explosives, and every jumpship arriving gets blown to dust. Effective..but against all traffic. Civilian, your own supply runs, reinforcements.. all blown to dust.

The jumping within system incidentally is not possible from what i can understand, the way they try to justify their jump point is that jumping can only be done when the gravity effect is below the threshold necessary for their 'jump drive', in which case aside of the specific points in which gravity cancel each other out or otherwise minimal, there's no other place within the gravity well of a star that you can perform the jump really.

Neither can the jump be done again after an arrival since the jump drive as their lore puts it needs to be recharged, a figure from which their own lore put at several days. (176 hours through recharging station following sarna figure). So the jumpship is stuck in the system till it can recharge back, and ironically... their own lore of Jump drive also rules out the possibility of carrying a second Jumpship with the first one.

SO...

you are stuck with standard drive movement in the system, and for that matter you have to accelerate AT BEST below human acceleration tolerance since BT has no gravity control tech.

Yup... you are going to cross the system in THRUSTERS... enjoy the trip, according to the figure i remember a dropship takes about 9 days to reach the planet (earth as an example iic) from the standard jump point.

Incidentally,

it seems you ppl misunderstand what MINE here is... i suppose i should've explained in detail since ppl seems to only know the static mine.

allow me to describe a VERY SIMPLE MINE that has a range of several million kilometers EASILY using their own existing tech for BT.

Step 1: take your old intercontinental ballistic missile design or other suitably large missile.
Step 2: ensure it's internals can survive long period of no maintenance
Step 3: give it a sensitive passive sensor and IFF transponder
Step 4: take the 'MISSILE' into the 'MINE' position you want... and leave it in place.

What happens when the 'MINE' sense something approaching it or if it's being given the signal from our command (probably with where the location it should look for?)

BAM... instant missile coming out of dormant state... ie: acting as a mine.

Not only can this mine guard a LARGE range resulting in much fewer mines needed, but they can also stay OUT of the jump point so the jumpship can jump.

But the moment something enters their detection range (which can be using external sensor like say a sensor buoy, the buoy when activated simply WAKES UP all the mines in range) they simply goes up and start their engines and home towards the target vessel.

Detection of the mines? Not likely, because UNTIL THEY START their engine, they are no different than a derelict object or any other ship that have no engine output.

No heat source, no nothing... they just sit, and watch and wait... until something wakes them up, THEN their engine signature will get them detected, but by then the mine is already starting it's journey towards the target.


This incidentally is how modern naval mines, especially anti submarine mines work...
They are essentially just torpedo in dormant state left in position where the area needs to be guarded.... the moment it senses something approaching it and it fails IFF, it goes active... and turns into a regular torpedo after the target.

Edited by Melcyna, 09 August 2012 - 04:14 AM.

[Elessar]

Melcyna, on 09 August 2012 - 04:05 AM, said:

Sure, we can pretend they want to conserve the Jumpship, and not shoot a vessel coming into their system carrying hostile vessels loaded with troops and ground forces (uhhh... not likely).

It doesn't take more than a minute to digest that and realize it's not possible to expect such 'agreement' given the vessels are THE ONLY MEANS of waging interstellar war indeed... which is precisely why neither side can afford to avoid attacking it in a war.

There are 3 likely situation and paths:
1. Let's face it, if one side has better fleet he can therefore protect his Jumpship ... and WILL WIN, and does not need such 'agreement' as he will win while retaining his Jumpships.

2. if he does NOT have a better fleet (ie: his enemy has the better fleet) his enemy is realistically the only one who can protect his own Jumpship, and the 'agreement' will NOT BENEFIT his enemy which means his enemy has no reason to accept such 'agreement' either.

3. if NEITHER SIDE have the fleet to protect their jumpship, then the most LOGICAL outcome is that they will cease war altogether if they cannot afford the loss of the jumpship as it makes no economic sense to wage the war then.

Well, there is something that is not forbidden and that is capturing a jump ship via boarding. Even the largest jump ships only have a few batteries Lasers or PPCs, to fend off meteorites (after all they are not Jump-Warships, which are a fair target, but only will be able to produced again in a few years from now on)... also, they are a sitting duck, as reloading their jump drive takes days
(and drop ships they carry, due to the limited number of docking points, rather take part in the invasion of the planet, than stay with the jump ship)

Melcyna, on 09 August 2012 - 04:05 AM, said:

As for non standard jump point, 2 possibilities i can think of straight out of the bat before i process that further:
A. if the risk of misjump on the point is large enough, it's possible to relegate it to low priority zone... they can always drop a perimeter warning sensor buoy in case something does arrive through it.

if the jump point is stable enough that a military force can realistically pass through it (the window of opportunity on which the jump point can be used and it's risk should be known to the holder of the system) then it is treated the same way as the standard jump point, ie:
B. we mine it as well and fortify it, if it's active on periodic time basis, then whenever it is active it is considered an even higher priority than standard jump point.
...

You make one mistake:
You obviously equalize these jump points with fixed wormholes, like in ST DS9 (or with jump points in several 4X games, like Space Empire V or MoO 3).

But that´s not correct.
Basically a ship can jump everywhere outside of a certain distance from ist star, which is determined by its gravitation well.

If we say Zenith and Nadir Jump Point, that is a huge area, especially as you aren´t forced to, jump at a location dirctly above the star and directly at the minimum distance, but also can, for example, jump to a point 100.000 km further away.

Same goes for non standard jump points. The important determinant is here, just with Zenith and Nadir Jump points, the distance from the star, that means, you theoretically could jump everywhere, if you have the same minimum distance from the star that you need for jumps to zenith and nadir jump points.
BUT as we are talking about the orbital plane, the gravitational effects of the planet have to be taken into account. As they aren´t fixed within time and space, but each planet revolves with its own speed around the star, the gravitational effects create a constantly changing patterns of points where you can jump and points were you shouldnm´t jump, unless you want to risk damaging or even destroying your jump ship. This also makes it rather difficult to calculate non standard jump points, as you have to calculate the positions and gravitational effects of all major bodies within the systems (for the time of your arrival, as well as for the duration of your stay).

This also makes it rather impossible to "put a buoy at the non standard jump point/s" ... they always change ... at one time there might be a non standard jump point at location x, at other times there isn, instead there are some at locations w, y and z (and due to the size of space we don´t talk about a few jump points, but, due to the vastness of space, from hundreds of them).


As for mines you also should take into account, that the jump ship itself is no danger...
it is the drop ships, but these, immediately upon arrival, undock from the jump ship and then accelerate towards the planet ...
considering the distances we´re talking about (in which the arrival points of jump ships might vary) the chance that a missile fired by a mine as you envision it, may hit the jumpship, but not the more important targets, their dropships.
Makes truely more sense therefore to honor the immunity of jump ships and concentrate on fending off the dropships when they arrive at planet (as, fighting them during their transit seems to be difficult if not impossible, considering the speeds involved, as the dropships accelerate with a constant rate first and then decelerate with the same rate after midpoint of theirvoyage)

Melcyna, on 09 August 2012 - 04:05 AM, said:

....

The jumping within system incidentally is not possible from what i can understand, the way they try to justify their jump point is that jumping can only be done when the gravity effect is below the threshold necessary for their 'jump drive', in which case aside of the specific points in which gravity cancel each other out or otherwise minimal, there's no other place within the gravity well of a star that you can perform the jump really.

Actually all standard and non standard jump points are outside of the gravity well (as explained above)

Melcyna, on 09 August 2012 - 04:05 AM, said:

Neither can the jump be done again after an arrival since the jump drive as their lore puts it needs to be recharged, a figure from which their own lore put at several days. (176 hours through recharging station following sarna figure). So the jumpship is stuck in the system till it can recharge back, and ironically... their own lore of Jump drive also rules out the possibility of carrying a second Jumpship with the first one.

Yep,
usually they don´t need a recharge station, but do it via their jump sail ... but unfurling it, recharging and then storing it again takes several days as well (with the whole procedure being dependant on the class of the star). Alternatively they can also quick charge the K-F-Drive via their reactors, but this procedure is risky, the faster you want it to be performed

Melcyna, on 09 August 2012 - 04:05 AM, said:

SO...

you are stuck with standard drive movement in the system, and for that matter you have to accelerate AT BEST below human acceleration tolerance since BT has no gravity control tech.

Yup... you are going to cross the system in THRUSTERS... enjoy the trip, according to the figure i remember a dropship takes about 9 days to reach the planet (earth as an example iic) from the standard jump point.

Yep, the accelerations in "Drophships and Jumpships" give figures from 0.5G to 3G, with the acceleration/deceleration affecting well being, travel time as well as the amount of fuel burned.
The shortest travel time from standard jump point to a point within the orbital plane for a G2-Star (like our sun) is 5 days (for 3G).

Edited by Elessar, 09 August 2012 - 05:39 AM.