950 replies to this topic

[Theodor Kling]

Rail guns don´t exist in BT, because the Gauss Rifle already does ( the discussion about the differences is about 3 or 4 pages further back in this threat).

But wether you do it with a rail gun, or a gauss rifle, or a laser, or an AC : hitting anything at long range is still hard. As already pointed out: Smalll deviations for whatever reason can make your shot miss by several kilometers. And yes , we are able to stabelize Teleskopes to great precision. But those are in a fixed position ( in comparison to a fighting ship), and got lots of room for stabelizing. Room that is precious abord ships, as pointed out in vaious BT novels.
Closer ranges are another matter, but long range combat is basicly impossible with anything but guided weapons.
Those again have other problems of course, like being slow in comaprison and bulky, so they can be shot down by short range weapons.

Although with a hybrid one might be able to compensate for that: A torpedo with some maneuvering thursters, a decent warhead and a magnetized hull, initially shot by a gauss rifle like launcher. But then again.. noone in the BT universum got something like that.

[Regal]

Ridiculous Battletech Fact #37502.2 - They still have hula girls in the 31st century.

[Aescwulf]

Most Mechwarriors wear just their long-johns and a t-shirt and boots inside a BattleMech even in the 31st century a suit that keeps your body cool doesn't exist

[Elessar]

Theodor Kling, on 21 August 2012 - 09:46 AM, said:

...
Although with a hybrid one might be able to compensate for that: A torpedo with some maneuvering thursters, a decent warhead and a magnetized hull, initially shot by a gauss rifle like launcher. But then again.. noone in the BT universum got something like that.

Sounds like you are talking about capital missiles.
They are guided missiles with star league technology, which were usually mounted on warships

[Elessar]

Nitsua Asuka, on 21 August 2012 - 10:04 AM, said:

Most Mechwarriors wear just their long-johns and a t-shirt and boots inside a BattleMech even in the 31st century a suit that keeps your body cool doesn't exist

Wrong
Mechwarriors wear a Cooling vest inside of their cockpit, that gets plugged into coolant lines via jacks in the cockpit

http://www.sarna.net...ior_%28pilot%29

(first pic shows a mechwarrior wearing such a cooling vest)

I think there were also full body pilot suits in the star league era, which are Lostech now (although mechwarriors even nowadays sometimes wear a ligth environmental protection suit, to protect themselves in case of cockpit hull breaches if their mechs operate in hazardous environments ... but due to the bulkiness of the suit they get mali on piloting and gunnery wile wearing it)

Edited by Elessar, 21 August 2012 - 10:17 AM.

[Theodor Kling]

Elessar, on 21 August 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

Sounds like you are talking about capital missiles.
They are guided missiles with star league technology, which were usually mounted on warships

But those are rockets, and as such suffer the accelaration limits that come with that concept. And furthermore all that fuel needs to be placed somewhere, making it a bigger target. A multi stage rocket would solve that of course. But then again.. that´s probably lostech too

Elessar, on 21 August 2012 - 10:16 AM, said:

Wrong
Mechwarriors wear a Cooling vest inside of their cockpit, that gets plugged into coolant lines via jacks in the cockpit

http://www.sarna.net...ior_%28pilot%29

(first pic shows a mechwarrior wearing such a cooling vest)

I think there were also full body pilot suits in the star league era, which are Lostech now (although mechwarriors even nowadays sometimes wear a ligth environmental protection suit, to protect themselves in case of cockpit hull breaches if their mechs operate in hazardous environments ... but due to the bulkiness of the suit they get mali on piloting and gunnery wile wearing it)

The vest is not sufficient..that´s why most do just wear next to nothing else. And the realy working suits, like you said, are once again lostech

[Melcyna]

Theodor Kling, on 21 August 2012 - 09:46 AM, said:

Rail guns don´t exist in BT, because the Gauss Rifle already does ( the discussion about the differences is about 3 or 4 pages further back in this threat).

But wether you do it with a rail gun, or a gauss rifle, or a laser, or an AC : hitting anything at long range is still hard. As already pointed out: Smalll deviations for whatever reason can make your shot miss by several kilometers. And yes , we are able to stabelize Teleskopes to great precision. But those are in a fixed position ( in comparison to a fighting ship), and got lots of room for stabelizing. Room that is precious abord ships, as pointed out in vaious BT novels.
Closer ranges are another matter, but long range combat is basicly impossible with anything but guided weapons.
Those again have other problems of course, like being slow in comaprison and bulky, so they can be shot down by short range weapons.

Although with a hybrid one might be able to compensate for that: A torpedo with some maneuvering thursters, a decent warhead and a magnetized hull, initially shot by a gauss rifle like launcher. But then again.. noone in the BT universum got something like that.

Technically the only reason why they don't have it is because they do not logically follow their capability in line with what technology they realistically have...

ie: they possess the capability to manufacture items or maintain one that logically imply capability of manufacturing others, but yet one of them is a common item in use for them, the other either do not exist (because soft sci fi writers often are not exactly versed with military tech or sensibility) or considered Lostech.

Range is one of the MOST crucial aspect in any warfare, been so since the dawn of time...

if a ship wishes to engage another, the one that can effectively engage further than the other effectively outclass his opponent even if he loses out in shorter range in raw firepower as long as he has sufficient range advantage in return for it. This is especially prominent in naval warfare since there isn't exactly much place to hide or take cover from and ships have to be able to engage targets in wide open area, a similar scenario with estimated space warfare where the majority of the battlefield will be wide expanse with little to cover the participant.

If the ship require space to stabilize his long range firepower or otherwise improve his chance at hitting a long range target then they will find that space even if it means compromising something until they can figure out how to do it with minimal impact (In the case of laser, technically the only part that needs to be fully stabilized is the focusing optic), and in the case of projectile based weapon nothing stops you from guiding it in which case you don't need to stabilize the weapon itself.

ie: it's a pretty implausible scenario that their military work the way they are as they do not follow basic military sense of warfare.. ed: which i guess is kinda moot since big giant bipedal machines have zero military sense in the first place...

Ironically the last time this happened to naval ships (HMS dreadnought) a similar scenario occurred, and the resulting product was a ship that so totally outclass it's predecessor and counterparts especially in long range firepower that it render them all obsolete.

Edited by Melcyna, 21 August 2012 - 04:10 PM.

[Raledon]

Size, by itself, is a small problem in space. The bigger you are, the more "stuff" you have. Engines are a small problem, since even a small engine can push a Death Star to near-light speed (with enough time) due to lack of friction.
I believe that a giant warship in the future will be possible, and will be made in a long conical shape. The ship will turn its side to the enemy, and rotate on its axis, shooting its side guns. After a short while (time it takes to reload, time for enemy shots to reach) it will turn back toward the enemy, shooting its main gun. An alternative is guided missiles shooting from the side with a gun at the front.
The effect is that there is nearly nothing to hit. While the ship is 1 KM long, you see only a surface of 100m^3, lowering the chance to be hit by low-accuracy weaponry.

Regarding the issue of guided weaponery being "slow", I'd have to disagree. All modern missiles are guided. Current AA missiles fly at a Mach 4 (inside atmosphere), so a lot faster in space. Considering its targeting system is designed against fighters, using the same tech to hit battleships shouldn't pose a problem.
Also, regarding stabilization issues, because in space there is little to no background interferance (no waves, winds or air) the physics turn out to be very simple. If you shoot a 1 ton missile at 100Km/h, you just need to check its momentum, apply it to yours, and you know exactly where you are going to be by the time of your second shot, making auto-aiming (recoil included) very simple.
Using super-conductors to protect against heat generation (current super-conductors requires a temperature of ~130K, or -140C) will be possible, since the only big heat source is the ship, and the space is quite "cool". This (not including the super conductors in the actual weapon design besides cooling) anti-overheating issue will also solve certain problems and increase shooting speed.

Ridculous fact: People guide missiles better than the guiding system (well, we laughed on the guiding system already but lets continue). This effectively downgrades a 3rd (self guiding) generation missile to a 2nd generation (person guided, first being unguided). This (ok their systems suck, but nevermind that) means that at very fast speeds the user cannot follow. It reduces the information gathering network (we see mostly in the visible light, harder to abuse the ultra-violet and infra-red, using other information sources such as the ship vision) capabilities (slower reaction time) and worst of all, allows simple Electronic Warfare to stop any new input (assuming they can't override you), effectively stopping the guidance and turning it into a useless piece of metal flying in space.

[Melcyna]

Just a slight correction, weapon stabilization is not about mitigating the effect of the weapon (recoil or otherwise) on the vehicle...

it's the opposite... weapon stabilization is the method or steps taken to prevent the weapon aim from being affected by the vehicle's movement, be it maneuver or vibration (that can be prevented anyway, some component of the movement naturally will still affect it like the obvious fact that the vehicle position is changing for example).

This is vital since otherwise it makes firing on the move very difficult if not near impossible to do for any significant range.

it generally comes in 2 flavor,
1. Full stabilization of the gun assembly, essentially allowing the gun to maintain attitude at certain axis (tanks usually have 2 axis stabilization, vertical and horizontal so the gun can be trained on a target and it will maintain that aim at that point regardless of any movement the tank makes as long as the gun have enough elevation to point at it).

2. Stabilization of the sensor only, with the gun unstabilized but instead the gun accuracy is achieved by the targeting computer that ensures the gun only fires when the parameter of it's aim is perfect. So in the event of a vibration for example, the firing computer simply delays the firing when a vibration shifts the alignment by say a micron off the correct position, and waits until the oscillation (if it's a vibration it obviously oscillates back to previous position) shifts the parameter back into the correct position and then trigger the firing cap right as it achieves the target attitude.

This is usually done when the vehicle has very little space available, or if the gun assembly is so massive that it's very difficult to stabilize the entire assembly.

[Apocalypse4987]

Elessar, on 21 August 2012 - 10:16 AM, said:

Wrong
Mechwarriors wear a Cooling vest inside of their cockpit, that gets plugged into coolant lines via jacks in the cockpit

http://www.sarna.net...ior_%28pilot%29

(first pic shows a mechwarrior wearing such a cooling vest)

I think there were also full body pilot suits in the star league era, which are Lostech now (although mechwarriors even nowadays sometimes wear a ligth environmental protection suit, to protect themselves in case of cockpit hull breaches if their mechs operate in hazardous environments ... but due to the bulkiness of the suit they get mali on piloting and gunnery wile wearing it)

Pilots a expensive mech, can't afford decent pants. Another ridiculous fact

[Natasha Kerensky]

Elessar, on 31 July 2012 - 12:02 AM, said:

-A giant 100t battlemech with its huge size that has to be armored is less vulnerable than a 100t tank (despite the fact that we can assume that said tank is more compact and therefore could be much thicker armored with the same weight of armor)

-infantry usually operates together in 20-30 men strong units and stays rather close together, so that they can be better mowed down with Battlemech MGs and Artillery

Show me this 100 ton tank you speak of that's weaker than a mech.

[Elessar]

Natasha Kerensky, on 22 August 2012 - 12:18 PM, said:

Show me this 100 ton tank you speak of that's weaker than a mech.

I am talking about Battletech hit location rules with regards to armor...
and I can easily show you that a tank is weaker than a mech according to these rules, no matter how much armor it has:
Lets assume a lance of Jagermechs score 22 hits with their AC/2 each at Atlas and an Behemoth Tank, both with undamaged armor ...
I assume we both agree that the 44 damage distributed with the normal to hit rolls are something that would not penetrate the armor of the Atlas or the Behemoth.

The damage distribution of the to hit location rolls would be as following:
Atlas:
LA = RA = 6
LL = RL = 4
LT = RT = 6
CT = 10
Head = 2

Behemoth:
Tank Body: 36
Turret: 8

So far so good, Armor stays intact ... but now we come to the probability for Criticals (despite intact armor)
(calculated is the probability to get at least a single hit of this type with 22 rolls):

Atlas: ~19% Probability for 1-3 crits in CT (that is, for 2 on Hit Location and then 8+ on Chance for Crit)

Behemoth:
Tank destroyed: ~ 35% (2 or 12 on hit location, then 4-6 with 1D6 for crit type)
Tank immobile: ~ 71% (rolling 3 on hit location roll)
Tank -1 MP: ~85% (rolling 4 on to hit location roll)
Turret lock: ~71% (rolling 11 on a hit location roll)

So,
after these 22 shots with a small damaging weapon the Atlas would be damaged, but would with almost 100% certainty still be fully operable and would, with >80% probability not get a single critical hit

The Behemoth however must be really lucky if he doesn´t have his turret locked and/or his movement ability impeded (or completely destroyed). He also has a considerable chance of getting destroyed despite intact armor.

So I can say that every 100 ton tank, regardless of armor, is, according to BT tabletop rules, weaker (meaning more vulnerable) than a mech.
And that are only the chances for frontal attacks. If the tank is attacked by the side, the probability for impeded movement is even higher.

Edited by Elessar, 22 August 2012 - 02:16 PM.

[Boru]

Exilyth, on 30 July 2012 - 03:15 PM, said:

- Space ships weighting in at multiple thousands of tons can travel faster than light by using a ridiculously small amount of energy.

You do realize that there is no friction in space so extremely high speeds ant any weight with relatively low energy consumption isn't at all ridiculous, in fact we can do it today...

[SakuranoSenshi]

Boru, on 22 August 2012 - 02:33 PM, said:

You do realize that there is no friction in space so extremely high speeds ant any weight with relatively low energy consumption isn't at all ridiculous, in fact we can do it today...

Umm, no. LOL

They can reach entirely different star systems, in very short periods of time (hours?) using magic handwaving and some pseudoscience that quotes a tiny energy consumption. Even at 99.99999% light speed, we'd be years to the nearest star to Sol (over 4 years, Proxima Centauri).

[Elessar]

SakuranoSenshi, on 22 August 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

Umm, no. LOL

They can reach entirely different star systems, in very short periods of time (hours?) using magic handwaving and some pseudoscience that quotes a tiny energy consumption. Even at 99.99999% light speed, we'd be years to the nearest star to Sol (over 4 years, Proxima Centauri).

The Jumpdrive ... that´s another thing ... artificially created wormholes that connect the 2 regions of space and serve (due to the 4 dimensional curvature of space) as a shortcut (well, to be more exactly, let them appear neighboring ... with other words ... the jumpship doesn´t travel a big distance through the wormhole, to get from the beginning to its end, despite the fact that in 3D space coordinates the distance is measured in lightyears).

Wormholes are discussed in physics ... also how to artificially create them ... the big problem seems to be the high amount of energy that you would need to create them

Edited by Elessar, 22 August 2012 - 05:40 PM.

[Vitzkrieg]

Raledon, on 22 August 2012 - 03:16 AM, said:

Regarding the issue of guided weaponery being "slow", I'd have to disagree. All modern missiles are guided. Current AA missiles fly at a Mach 4 (inside atmosphere), so a lot faster in space. Considering its targeting system is designed against fighters, using the same tech to hit battleships shouldn't pose a problem.
...
Using super-conductors to protect against heat generation (current super-conductors requires a temperature of ~130K, or -140C) will be possible, since the only big heat source is the ship, and the space is quite "cool". This (not including the super conductors in the actual weapon design besides cooling) anti-overheating issue will also solve certain problems and increase shooting speed.

Mach 4 seems fast, but compared to a laser it's still peanuts. Even Mach 1000 is only one thousandth of the speed of light. That means it'd take the projectile 15 minutes to reach the target that's one light second away. That leaves a lot of opportunity to shoot it down, particularly if it can't do evasive maneuvers along the plane perpendicular to the target (ie zig-zag with thrusters pointing sideways).

The super conductor comment just confuses me. As far as I'm aware they're not useful as heat dissipation systems in any way. You generate heat to keep them cool, such as by creating liquid nitrogen and submerging them in it, which allows the super conductor to carry currents far in excess of what it normally could (since it'll have essentially zero resistance). They don't naturally keep cold though.

And as far as stabilization goes, I agree that the navy would clearly use the very best they had available to them. I just have no idea what that tolerance could reasonably be, both in reality and in the BT universe. If it's into micro degrees (that's a millionth of a degree), then fights out to a few light seconds might be possible. That'd give you a 5 meter spread at 1 light second, if you want numbers.

[Solis Obscuri]

Daniel Wraith, on 01 August 2012 - 06:35 AM, said:

Gaus slug is described as the size of a VW Bug being thrown an mach 6 I own a 72 vw bug i wish it could go mach 6

Yet you still get 8 shots per ton.

Quietly Crazy, on 03 August 2012 - 11:25 PM, said:

-The Magistracy of Canopus. Legalized prostitution/sex tourism runs their economy. And this is from a society that is ruled by women.

Yeah, seriously.

But in a game designed by sci-fi nerd boys it was inevitable.

Dark Puppy, on 04 August 2012 - 06:55 AM, said:

Your also ignoring ComStar murdering the **** out of anyone with a science degree after the SLDF left. Cause your cult based on high technology doesn't need ******* scientists. **** those guys and their degrees and understanding of complex ****.

And no one else notices that the phone company is assassinating all their top scientists. Or anyone who can reverse engineer something more complicated than a VCR.

And vast fascist space autocracies ruled by megalomaniac militarist space emperors are willing to hand over all their communications to an outside vendor.

And on the two occasions during the first couple of Succession Wars when they realize the vendor is screwing them, they let them shut down all communications and capitulate, instead of just summarily executing all the cultist over a 3-day weekend and fixing the system with the aid of their remaining scientists by weeks end.

But they'll spend months sending an invasion fleet across the galaxy to destroy some other space warlord's factory that produces like 2 heavy 'mechs per year.

Mousehold, on 05 August 2012 - 02:54 PM, said:

Has anyone considered how off population demographics are in the Battletech universe? Between Marik, Steiner, Davion and the Clans it's like 80% Caucasian. Indians don't exist, and non-Japanese Asians almost completely vanished.

It has got to be like pulling teeth to get a decent quart of General Tso's chicken anywhere Coreward of Tikonov...

Doc Sav, on 06 August 2012 - 08:19 AM, said:

Not just mullets, but rat-tails with flat tops, long ponytails on dudes, and silver spurs on mechwarrior boots! Lol I have been reading some CBT books and some of the concepts of cool or tough looks are truly cringe-worthy.

What's impressive has been how MW adapted with the times in their representative of what's "badass".

1980's: Scrawny leather/spandex punks with bad haircuts:

1990s: Genetically engineered rockjaw super-soldiers with lifetimes of elite training. And tattoos:

Early 2000s: Fanatical cyber-enhanced superhuman space ninja mystics:

Grendel408, on 06 August 2012 - 05:55 PM, said:

Maybe not ridiculous... but odd fact of BattleTech:
Story authors are obsessed with hot redheaded women Which goes to say they all have great taste in women, problem is most redheads are frakkin crazy...

Most?

SnowDragon, on 08 August 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:

Bricks, they make them out of bricks.

Along with all the I.S. Missile Systems.

And all the autocannons.

Sidney, on 09 August 2012 - 11:26 AM, said:

FF armour criticals aren't really criticals on the inside. It's 'bulkier' and so mounting things are more difficult to mount. Any actual criticals to FF Armour is rerolled because it's just a representation of 'lost space'. That's why you can cram the FF armour anywhere you want on the sheet. You're not literally filling the legs with armour- just that overall you've lost some areas to mount items all over the 'mech so you 'lose' some criticals.

The ability to stow FF and Endo Steel "wherever" always seemed like such a cop-out to me... Everything has strict rules, then you two in the T2/LostTech and suddenly there's all this willy-nilly crap that let's people munchkin anything.

And don't get me started on engine mounted DHS... when engine mounted heat sinks aren't supposed to work the same as chassis heat sinks, anyway!

Elessar, on 10 August 2012 - 01:38 PM, said:

Not true if you face enemy tanks ...
10 shots with an MG and even the heaviest tank is with >= 50% probability immobile and with 25% probability even dead

Of course, just kicking the tank for 5 turns is 100% chance immobile and 50% probability dead...

Ok, now a few of my own:

• Mech's colliding with other 'mechs, the ground, buildings, etc. take damage. But 'mechs punching and kicking other 'mechs incur no damage. You can explicitly hit someone with your hand actuator for 5-10 points of damage, and it takes no damage. But god forbid an MG TACs it...
  
• Neurohelmets are massively heavy affairs that restrict pilot vision and mobility, all for the sake of balancing a 'mech and providing a few simple HUD and targetting enhancements. But the 'mech still needs a multi-ton gyro to stay upright. Oh, and most are rigged with some sort of high-tech security system to lobotomize you if you get the start-up sequence wrong. Why not just post some extra infantry at the hanger and save the weight? Better still, just take the damn thing with you when you leave the 'mech...
  
• The technology to magnetically accelerate ferrous slugs is lost for centuries. Weaponized particle accelerators are commonplace. ***?
  
• The Star League under House Cameron lasted less than 200 years, and was arguably one of the more brutal autocracies in human history, even going so far as to throw away the centuries-old Ares Conventions during the wholesale sacking of the Periphery States, yet it is strangely remembered as an enduring icon of peace and happiness. Despite the fact that the bulk of humanity had already come to tolerate a state of continual low-level warfare and a intergalactic feudal system that perpetuated it, precisely because of the Conventions.
  
• Lasers are the most common battlemech weapon, yet infantry laser rifles are a rarity that few facilities can produce by the 4th Succession War. Why?
  
• When damage spreads from a damaged section of a 'mech to an undanged section, it hits the armor first. These things have interlocking bulkheads?
  
• A typical 'mech carries only enough missiles and autocannon shells for about a minute-and-a-half of combat, but enough machine gun ammo for 17 minutes of continuous firing. Oh, and the machine gun ammo is more dangerous than the missiles and high explosive shells if it cooks off.
  
• City streets are the most slippery surface known to man in the 31st century. I'd hate to think of what the car insurance premiums are like...
  
• Missiles and projectile weapons don't function underwater. Hell, they scarcely work in a crosswind. Lasers are generally unaffected by refraction from submersion or atmospheric effects. Physics apparently wasn't FASA's strong suit.
  
• All 'mechs can fit the same volume of weapons and components, regardless of the size of the 'mech.
  
• The WoB can apparently fill the Sol system with enough Capital ships and automated assault dropships to blot out the light of the sun, yet none of the Successor States is aware of it or identifies it as a threat.

Edited by Solis Obscuri, 22 August 2012 - 06:17 PM.

[SakuranoSenshi]

Elessar, on 22 August 2012 - 05:37 PM, said:

The Jumpdrive ... that´s another thing ... artificially created wormholes that connect the 2 regions of space and serve (due to the 4 dimensional curvature of space) as a shortcut (well, to be more exactly, let them appear neighboring ... with other words ... the jumpship doesn´t travel a big distance through the wormhole, to get from the beginning to its end, despite the fact that in 3D space coordinates the distance is measured in lightyears).

Wormholes are discussed in physics ... also how to artificially create them ... the big problem seems to be the high amount of energy that you would need to create them

Umm, aye... I know. However, this poster apparently didn't and seems to think "we could do it now" because "there's no friction in space", using any old thrust. Without even getting into the limitations on thrust that happen as you approach significant proportions of light speed, this is not going to happen because even lightspeed is slow for getting between stars. In other words, nothing you said to me was relevant to my post or news to me.

[Elessar]

SakuranoSenshi, on 22 August 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

Umm, aye... I know. However, this poster apparently didn't and seems to think "we could do it now" because "there's no friction in space", using any old thrust. Without even getting into the limitations on thrust that happen as you approach significant proportions of light speed, this is not going to happen because even lightspeed is slow for getting between stars. In other words, nothing you said to me was relevant to my post or news to me.

Ah, I see ...
that´s right of course ...
if you want to go > lightspeed via conventional means, Einstein might have a word to say about it
and for travel just below lightspeed, even our neighbors Proxima/Alpha Centauri will take >= 5 years of travel
(that is, if we would have the means to accelerate a ship to this speed)

Edited by Elessar, 22 August 2012 - 07:25 PM.

[SakuranoSenshi]

Aye, I was giving benefit of the doubt to magic thrusters with instant acceleration, though actually you can get to an impressive speed pretty damn fast. It's a little over 4.2 lightyears away, if memory serves but of course one would need to accelerate and then decelerate (unless you simply want to flash past) meaning that realistically (LOL!) it's a lot longer.

In reality (really this time) we hit issues of gaining very little thrust as vehicle speed approaches the speed of light because of physical limits on particle speeds and so on, we also have the problem of small pieces of debris now being lethal projectiles should we strike them, the problems surrounding "time dilation" for any passengers or crew, life support for all that time, etc. In short, it's very much non-trivial and at present a big reach for humanity. We may never do it.