950 replies to this topic

[Melcyna]

KalebFenoir, on 11 October 2012 - 05:25 AM, said:

The Gyro is the what keeps the mech upright, but without something telling it which way is 'up' or 'left' or 'right', it can't do its job. Hence the Neurohelmet taking the pilot's sense of balance (as distorted as it is being in a 30 foot tall giant robot), and uses that to direct the Gyro. If the mech starts tilting the wrong way, the pilot's inner ear would detect it, and he'd probably yank on the controls to go the opposite way. But if the Gyro wasn't able to shift the center-of-gravity that direction, the mech might still go over.

Lately, I've been kind of picturing a Gyro like that giant ball bearing they have in that one enormous skyscraper in Hong Kong (or was it Thailand? I can't recall). When the building leans one way in the wind, the ball moves the other direction (or rather, it stays perfectly centered in its cradle while the building moves away from it), and ends up forcing the building to bend back a bit. If you removed the ball bearing from the building, the higher-level winds would eventually snap or bend the structure, and it'd come down.

Course, when I actually PICTURE a Gyro, I keep thinking of a really incredibly complex version of the gyro toy you buy in shops. That one you tie a string around and then let loose like a top. XD Just way more complex.

Gyros might be a form of losTech, but one that can be reproduced easier. It took them a very long time to even think of making a Heavy Duty gyro, but that might be because no company wanted to take responsibility for retooling their construction lines to create a hypothetical and possibly costly mistake.

wait... HUH?

one of the MOST basic use of gyroscope that we have is to DO EXACTLY that?

ie: tells which way is up

the virtual horizon instrument in aircrafts? yep they can be made using gyroscope.... in fact many are... so i am confused here as to why the gyro would not know which way is up or left and right... since one of the gyro's purpose is to tell PRECISELY what the attitude of the gyro (and hence the machine the gyro is attached to) currently is...

Attitude includes the pitch, yaw, and roll... so the gyro knows EXACTLY which way is up, EXACTLY which is left and right and it knows this regardless of what the attached device or vehicle does after you set it (you can set whichever side as the reference when calibrating the gyroscope reading).

ExSlyder, on 11 October 2012 - 07:24 AM, said:

Spoiler

The neurohelmet is what I find as the most far flung piece of tech in the Battletech/MW universe.

While very basic BCI's exist, (Brain Computer Interface), we are only beginning to understand how the brain functions. Some examples of current tech uses an EEG reader, but it is really only detecting any specific TYPE of activity, as opposed to actually interpreting what the activity. Examples are The Star Wars force trainer and the game Mindlink. They use an EEG sensor on the forehead as well as a reference and ground sensor and pretty much read if there is a lot of Alpha brainwave activity then raise the ball. It doesn't matter if you think about the ball or think about playing with your friends. It's just reading IF there is activity.

There have been tests where people have had 64 channel EEG sensors and the navigated an object through 3D space. But the responsiveness is far from "thought reading" used to get a mech to interface to interface with its pilot.

Other examples of the tech is Nekomimi and the not yet released Shippo by Neurosky, the Nekomimi are cat ears that respond to brain activity, and Shippo is a tail. Damn those Japanese for all of their Kawaii thinking. LOL

Akk! I just realized I sound like a commercial.

ExSlyder

uhmmm, just as an information Battletech neurohelmet doesn't control the mech... they use it in lore as a security interface, and SUPPOSEDLY to help the mech balance (which is what we've been arguing for the last few pages) and... well that's it really...

the mechwarrior does NOT have control over the mech limbs and what not through neurohelmet... they needed the neural interface for that in BT, ie: the INVASIVE neural interface with ******** feedback and what not which makes no sense...

incidentally in the real world: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BrainGate
for the commercial side..

meanwhile NASA had the control experiment on flight through the brain signal reading since years ago, and with some practice the pilots essentially had all the attitude control of the aircraft with just thought, at first it was not very precise, but the subsequent development (and with more practice on the pilot) gave it a control that had impressive finesse.

We NEVER NEEDED thought reading in the form of reading precise interpretation of words or what not that the brain is thinking in order to use it as a control system... all we needed was to determine what signal that the brain is emitting to use as the control signal, preferably one that can be controlled easily by the user... and how to detect it reliably.

Edited by Melcyna, 12 October 2012 - 12:12 AM.

[Theodor Kling]

Skylarr, on 02 October 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

Two pairs of forward-reaching toes are matched by a rearward-facing toe for a total of six toes on each foot; a similarly built but smaller pair of appendages serves as arms and hands.

2+ 2 pointing forward. The there are 2 more pointing Rearward. I calculate 6. Not sure were you got 5 from.

If you look at both picture you will see that they are both different. The Cover shows a bird-like creature with 4 toes and 2 claw like fingers for hands. But, the Picture inside the book shows a bird-like creature with 6 claw like fingers.

No matter what the picture shows, the text speaks of 5 toes, since "matched by a rearward-facing toe" is one toe to me, not a pair.

KalebFenoir, on 06 October 2012 - 10:32 AM, said:

Time for some more crazy battletech facts

At no point (barring Far Country), has an alien race ever been discovered in the BT universe. Mankind has spread through most of the galaxy, finding alien species of animals and plants... but not a single intelligent alien race.

WTF. Empty universe eh? Makes it easy to keep the game straight if it's person vs person not person vs alien... but still very empty.

Apart from the question of our galaxy being rather empty or not when it comes to civilization building species, mankind in BT has NOT spread through most of the galaxy. The IS is roughly 550 ly in diameter. Our galaxy about 110 kly.
So the volume of the IS is roughly 87113746 cubic ly.
Since the galaxy is roughly 1kly thick its volume ( aproximated as a cylinder ) is 19006635554218 cubic ly
So the IS represents about 1/218181 of the galaxy. One over twohundredeighteenthousandonehundredeightyone. Thats 4.58*10^(-6).
Sure , this does not acount for the clan homeworlds.. but compared to the size of the IS those are pretty insignificant anyway.
Definetly a long shot from "most" of the galaxy
Addionaly they did not find that many animal life, great parts of it were imported and geneticly adpated animals from earth ( not sure of the percanetage though).

Edit: As an afterthough: the ComStar explorer corps might have mapped a bit more then the actually settled worlds. But even if they explored twice as many worlds as they settled ( which I seriously doubt) that wouldn´t dent the numbers significantley. The order of magnitude would stay.

Edited by Theodor Kling, 13 October 2012 - 01:48 AM.

[Steamroller Stig]

Brenden, on 31 July 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

-They use metric still
-When a battlemech is cored, it does NOT go nuclear like most clear reactors do when damaged

whats wrong with the metric system?

anyway mechs don't use fission reactors, they use fusion reactors. this has not yet been accomplished for one and two fission reactors only explode under very specific conditions. Normally a failure results in a meltdown which can be explosive. but normally just releases hot radioactive steam.

[Melcyna]

Fission reactors CANNOT explode in nuclear weapon fashion...

it's not just unlikely, it's practically impossible since the fuel used in the reactor is of low enrichment level FAR below the sufficient level necessary for a weapon explosion.

hence why when a country starts enriching their uranium beyond the threshold, everyone's assumption immediately is on nuclear weapon production like Iran who crossed the 20% mark.

[Theodor Kling]

Melcyna, on 13 October 2012 - 03:28 AM, said:

Fission reactors CANNOT explode in nuclear weapon fashion...

it's not just unlikely, it's practically impossible since the fuel used in the reactor is of low enrichment level FAR below the sufficient level necessary for a weapon explosion.

hence why when a country starts enriching their uranium beyond the threshold, everyone's assumption immediately is on nuclear weapon production like Iran who crossed the 20% mark.

Although you can run reactors with weapon grade material... it ´s more risky, and due to the lengthy process o enrichment not exactley economic though.
And Steamroller: Fusion reactors have been at least partly accomplished. They work.. just not very good or very long so far..

[Fedaykin]

SakuranoSenshi, on 03 August 2012 - 09:08 PM, said:

Nope, none of them. They're not possible at all, sorry. Especially the so-called Gundams, which can be unbelievably huge, depending on which universe it's set in.

P.S. Heat seeking missiles are not stupid, no more than RADAR ones are, they still require a lock but they find targets by heat and once it's identified they stick with it. Heat signatures are just as unique and your side's stuff will often look totally different to the stuff you want to shoot at.

Hey I just found this. Check it out ^^

http://www.youtube.c...d&v=29MD29ekoKI

[Melcyna]

Yep, i think many of us have seen it already when they made a showcase of it during one of the con...

a nice entertainment piece and showcase but sadly doesn't change the existing problem with any oversized mecha concept from ever coming into fruition (the complexity and challenge shoots through the roof as you get bigger).

the sad part is that we don't have an actual use for it (part of the reason why it was never developed in most actual use despite the tech including the hydraulics being known for eons)

Hence why they call it an art piece, it's pretty much that... ie: no inherent functional value no matter what you do with the design.

hell if you are willing to put enough money in, a company specialized in mechanical hydraulic system can fashion a quad or more leg walking platform of similar size (not rolling on wheels but actual mechanical leg with insect gait)... what exactly it will be good at though... well.. for fun.. though they did design one for forest excavator with insect gait using many legs.

Edited by Melcyna, 13 October 2012 - 06:44 AM.

[Skylarr]

Theodor Kling, on 13 October 2012 - 01:39 AM, said:

No matter what the picture shows, the text speaks of 5 toes, since "matched by a rearward-facing toe" is one toe to me, not a pair.

You are right. I did mess up that simple math. lol

Quote

Apart from the question of our galaxy being rather empty or not when it comes to civilization building species, mankind in BT has NOT spread through most of the galaxy. The IS is roughly 550 ly in diameter. Our galaxy about 110 kly.
So the volume of the IS is roughly 87113746 cubic ly.
Since the galaxy is roughly 1kly thick its volume ( aproximated as a cylinder ) is 19006635554218 cubic ly
So the IS represents about 1/218181 of the galaxy. One over twohundredeighteenthousandonehundredeightyone. Thats 4.58*10^(-6).
Sure , this does not acount for the clan homeworlds.. but compared to the size of the IS those are pretty insignificant anyway.
Definetly a long shot from "most" of the galaxy

Read A Time Of War Companion page 109 to see BattleTechs view on intelligent species.

Quote

Addionaly they did not find that many animal life, great parts of it were imported and geneticly adpated animals from earth ( not sure of the percanetage though).

Edit: As an afterthough: the ComStar explorer corps might have mapped a bit more then the actually settled worlds. But even if they explored twice as many worlds as they settled ( which I seriously doubt) that wouldn´t dent the numbers significantley. The order of magnitude would stay.

Quote

The BattleTech universe spans thousands of charted worlds, each with a unique enviroment. Many of these worlds are dull, lifeless rocks useful only for their strategic importance, together these planets represent countless billions of species waiting to be discovered. Some may be helpful, others harmful, but all creatures provide an excellent way to introduce variety into MechWarrior games.

excerpt from MECHWARRIOR Companion page 73

Quote

Though sentient alien species have yet to appear on all of the worlds humankind has occupied in A Time of War, the BattleTech universe is replete with alien flora and fauna whose presence has proved both boon and bane to human existence across the stars.

excerpt from A Time Of War page 238

Edited by Skylarr, 13 October 2012 - 08:25 AM.

[Theodor Kling]

Skylarr, on 13 October 2012 - 08:23 AM, said:

Read A Time Of War Companion page 109 to see BattleTechs view on intelligent species.

Haven't that one at hand. But the quotes you posted do not disprove my point. Yes, the IS and the charted but not yet fully explored worlds in the near vincinity are thousands. But there are billions more out there that no human being ever saw. For all those lying directly on the other side of the galactic center humanity can´t even see their stars.
When it comes to simple size BT's human-settled area is pretty damm small, as comapred to let´s say Star Wars( realy great parts of the galaxy) or even Star Trek ( lookign at the maps something like maybe 1/16 of the galaxy)

About the animals/flora: I never said there were none. It is just stated in a few novels, that animals were imported from earth, often geneticaly altered to better thrive in the new enviroment. This is of course not exactley the wildlife even on those worlds where they were imported to, more the domesticated animals. Which does make sense( yeah.. within BT.. sense.. can´t belive it). With Star League level tech geneticaly altering within limits was probably not too hard, and definetley faster then domesticating local fauna.

This brings me to another point about settled worlds: I don´t think it is explicitly stated anywhere.. but I got the impression, that apart from the Exodus there hasn´t been much setteling worlds since the fall of the starleague.

[Hexenhammer]

[Kaziganthi]

Theodor Kling, on 13 October 2012 - 10:07 AM, said:

Haven't that one at hand. But the quotes you posted do not disprove my point. Yes, the IS and the charted but not yet fully explored worlds in the near vincinity are thousands. But there are billions more out there that no human being ever saw. For all those lying directly on the other side of the galactic center humanity can´t even see their stars.
When it comes to simple size BT's human-settled area is pretty damm small, as comapred to let´s say Star Wars( realy great parts of the galaxy) or even Star Trek ( lookign at the maps something like maybe 1/16 of the galaxy)

About the animals/flora: I never said there were none. It is just stated in a few novels, that animals were imported from earth, often geneticaly altered to better thrive in the new enviroment. This is of course not exactley the wildlife even on those worlds where they were imported to, more the domesticated animals. Which does make sense( yeah.. within BT.. sense.. can´t belive it). With Star League level tech geneticaly altering within limits was probably not too hard, and definetley faster then domesticating local fauna.

This brings me to another point about settled worlds: I don´t think it is explicitly stated anywhere.. but I got the impression, that apart from the Exodus there hasn´t been much setteling worlds since the fall of the starleague.

Correct, a lot of the colonised planets had to be terraformed, excluding M class planets, as they contained materials to help the Star league expand. During the fall of the Star League and the subsequent succesion wars, a lot of technology was lost (aka Lostech), including the ability to terraform a planet.

Just to note, the ability to correctly repair a mech gyro was one of the technologies lost. The factories could still manufacture them for some reason which was weird, but the repairs on a damaged one in combat were beyond 90% of the techs skills (Read Actuators and Gyros mechwarrior 1st edition 1986 - p63 & 65). This section also explains why a neural helmet is required in conjuction with the gyro for the mech to keep balanced. The Houses slowly gained technology back by finding star league caches as well as pumping huge amounts of c-bills into R&D.

Edited by Kaziganthi, 19 October 2012 - 11:41 AM.

[Melcyna]

While that sounds fine on paper...

the lore concept is quite ludicrous to say the least since a gyro is... well a tech VERY OLD, and one of the simplest (and yet vital) piece of mechanical gear that the early 20th century used, and not surprisingly vital to many war machines and weapons of the WW1 and 2. It was especially extra vital in WW2 where it was used extensively down to gunsights (gyroscopic gunsights was one of the most vital piece of equipment in aerial dogfight of WW2).

It's very difficult to comprehend the loss of the knowledge of one of the most basic piece of equipment that engineering produced (and understood).

As far as a gyro needing the human balance input however, that will not make sense in either way... because if the gyro can keep the mech standing at least then that suggest that they at least KNOW how to set it and calibrate it and how to read it's readings, since the gyro does not inherently know that before it's set and calibrated during it's installation into the vehicle.

It's a paradox because if the gyro after it's set still need human help to keep the mech balanced in such manner then logically it would not be able to function in any capacity whatsoever regarding balance, standing, or otherwise since in either case the most vital function of it is the ability to read the current attitude and if it functions as a stabilizer as well, to then provide the counter force.

Edited by Melcyna, 19 October 2012 - 04:43 PM.

[SakuranoSenshi]

Solkar, on 07 October 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

Go to http://www.facebook....Inc/54126174095

There is a group building a real Mech, I have personally seen part of it and talked with some of the machinists, and one of the programmers. No neural helmets, no fusion reactors or PPCs, but there will be Mechs... just not replacing tanks and fighters and bombers.

If that is indeed the case, I fail to see why you quote me. It won't be a 100 tonne bipedal war mahcine, for sure. That's just physics.

[SilentSooYun]

- A MechWarrior can easily survive a fall of 10+m with only a little dazing and breathlessness.

- The cockpit is usually a lightly-armoured box in a direct line over a nuclear furnace while air conditioning is apparently lostech.

- Getting hit by a laser weapon capable of instantly melting over half a ton of armour produces no heat.

- Ammo can be drawn from the left foot to the right hand without any chance of a feed error, even through ball-jointed limbs.

- Four tons worth of equipment is all that's necessary to rocket a 75-ton block of metal 120m into the air and back down in less than 10 seconds. Repeatedly.

- Tanks still require a crew of three or more, while a complex walking war machine needs only the pilot.

- A BattleMech's speed is solely determined by it's engine rating without regards to it's leg design.

- No matter how severe the damage, a BattleMech can almost always be repaired, lasting over the course of generations. They contain no components that rust, rot, or corrode; even BattleMechs in storage for 300 years can be restored and powered up in a few days.

[Tadrith]

Helbourne, on 04 August 2012 - 06:24 AM, said:

Yeah Battletech technology has always made me wonder and chuckle a bit. I mean the main cannon on the M1A2 Abrams tank has an effective range of what 4000m. That is 2.5 miles. In game table top game terms you need at least 8 maps, 9 if you want the tank to be on a map. I would think that 4000m would be medium range for it, cause what ammo they use would determine max range (like laser guided rounds). Plus why are the targeting computers so stupid in battletech? I mean why does a computer take so much weight and space? clan TC = 1 ton and 1 crit slot for every 5 tons of equipment (rounded up), Inner Sphere is 1 ton and 1 crit for every 4 tons of equipment (rounded up). I mean come on now, how big are these computers and what do they use to make them?

There was a interview with Fasa at one time that I can't find now where they talked about thier weapon ranges. They said that they knew all of the ranges in the game were way too short but if they had set them at what they were sopoused to be you would need to string a hughe number of maps together to have a game wich would consist of standing still and shooting at each other. So they shorted the range to make the game more fun.

[PaintedWolf]

Tadrith, on 30 October 2012 - 05:27 AM, said:

There was a interview with Fasa at one time that I can't find now where they talked about thier weapon ranges. They said that they knew all of the ranges in the game were way too short but if they had set them at what they were sopoused to be you would need to string a hughe number of maps together to have a game wich would consist of standing still and shooting at each other. So they shorted the range to make the game more fun.

Those damn FASANs!

[Kaziganthi]

Melcyna, on 19 October 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:

It's very difficult to comprehend the loss of the knowledge of one of the most basic piece of equipment that engineering produced (and understood).

Because in the 1st succesion war the houses targeted everything possible..warship build stations, HPG stations, Mech factories. It was quite indiscriminate following the age old military phylosophy...If you take away their ability to build war machines they will lose. Thus came about the introduction of the ARES Convention

Why do you thionk the Clans were so far ahead technically. They had the same problems when they left, but the founders of the Clans had the forsight to introduce their system of bidding to reduce the loss of military assests..

[Melcyna]

Kaziganthi, on 03 November 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

Because in the 1st succesion war the houses targeted everything possible..warship build stations, HPG stations, Mech factories. It was quite indiscriminate following the age old military phylosophy...If you take away their ability to build war machines they will lose. Thus came about the introduction of the ARES Convention

Why do you thionk the Clans were so far ahead technically. They had the same problems when they left, but the founders of the Clans had the forsight to introduce their system of bidding to reduce the loss of military assests..

For the moment let's forget the fact that it makes NO SENSE to have no information repository backup in a safe location (apparently FTL travel and communications make ppl dumb as all hell on information organization).

Let's also forget that WE CAN REBUILD THEM IF THEY BLOW THE FACTORY as long as we have the schematic and tech blueprints or EXISTING sample that can be reverse engineered.

Why do you think engineering are choke full of blueprints and design? Why do you think we make every effort to destroy hardwares that are left in the field when we are forced to abandon them?

But you know, let's forget those for the moment...

The reason why i said that line you quoted is because GYROSCOPE is a VERY BASIC machine (we make them smaller, more compact, more accurate or powerful over time but the principle behind all of them is the same and is VERY STRAIGHTFORWARD).

It is INCOMPREHENSIBLE that they HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE on how to replicate and make one...

Edited by Melcyna, 03 November 2012 - 10:25 PM.

[KalebFenoir]

Melcyna, on 03 November 2012 - 10:24 PM, said:

For the moment let's forget the fact that it makes NO SENSE to have no information repository backup in a safe location (apparently FTL travel and communications make ppl dumb as all hell on information organization).

Let's also forget that WE CAN REBUILD THEM IF THEY BLOW THE FACTORY as long as we have the schematic and tech blueprints or EXISTING sample that can be reverse engineered.

Why do you think engineering are choke full of blueprints and design? Why do you think we make every effort to destroy hardwares that are left in the field when we are forced to abandon them?

But you know, let's forget those for the moment...

The reason why i said that line you quoted is because GYROSCOPE is a VERY BASIC machine (we make them smaller, more compact, more accurate or powerful over time but the principle behind all of them is the same and is VERY STRAIGHTFORWARD).

It is INCOMPREHENSIBLE that they HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE on how to replicate and make one...

Maybe a Battlemech's Gyro is more complex than we realize? Simply put, we're philosophizing and imagining modern equipment in an 80s-based giant robot. That kind of combo doesn't work. So the only real way to think is that, yes, today modern gyros in tanks and whatnot are small and seem simple. What if the ones in Mechs are the same way, but because Mechs are so unusual in design, the Gyros are just stepped up to match the task? Would a tank's gyro, built as it is, be able to balance a tank's guns if, in addition to the main turret it normally accounts for, be able to deal with the tank suddenly having two additional turret mounts hanging off the sides that off set its weight (especially if one gets blown off)? Or the fact that instead of being flat on the ground on its treads, which is fairly stable even at high drive, the tank is now being tipped left and right, backward and forward, and that all those turrets are now mounted on a central turret that has, in addition to the 180 degree spin, now has a waist it can bend at instead of just depressing turrets?

The gyro might be built the same, but there might be MORE of it now, simply to account for the redirection of forces and the sheer unusual bulk of the machine (no tank towers 12 meters straight up unless its on its nose).

[Sandpit]

Theodor Kling, on 31 July 2012 - 01:29 AM, said:

Actually only a small part of the galaxy has been visited by jumships. So they might be out there somewhere.. or not

• Computer systems capable of controlling a fusion power plant inside a moving, jumping, falling etc mech are not capable of getting a decent aim for the weapons.
  
• Despite mechs positivly glowing from their exess heat, heat seeking missiles are absent.
  
• A 100 ton metal mosnter with a fusion reaktor that screams lowdly "HERE" in infrared, on a magnetometer, and probably also in gamma radiation can HIDE behind a building.

Not true. There was a sentient bird race found by accident through jumps that were messed up. It was decided to keep them out of canon though because they want to keep it as a human based game. They actually made the active decision to keep other sentient races out of the storylines