30 replies to this topic

[Reoh]

I had an idea about Double Heat Sinks (DHS) and different ways about how they could be implemented while maintaining game balance. The problems with their large space (canonicaly 3 critical slots) is that many mechs will just use their engines to hide them. Going purely by price would extend the gap between those that play very well or pay money which seems to move away from PGI's design goals for MWO.

My solution is this; Let DHS work exactly like regular heatsinks do while heat is building, after a period of time without gaining additional heat they would kick into high gear, getting you cooler in half the time it would normally take. The duration of time before they boosted cooling would have to be determined by play testing. This could still be in the middle of combat where you just stopped firing for a bit, or between one skirmish and the next on the field. Either way they still give you a benefit while bridging the gap between standard heat sinks and DHS.

While I concede this is not their canonical interpretation in the past, I feel that it would be a fair compromise for gameplay balance in MWO.

[Alaric Wolf Kerensky]

DHS are balanced because of their massive bulk. No offense but your idea sounds kind of foolish to me.

[Gunther Hartmann]

Sorry Reoh, really bad idea and pretty useless.

[Reoh]

Hey if they play it like TT then it'll make my Jenner run super cool, no skin off my back.

[Durant Carlyle]

Double Heat Sinks are perfectly balanced with all of the other high-heat technologies available. ER PPCs, ER Large Lasers, and all sizes of Pulse Lasers produce more heat than single heat sinks can handle. Plus, there's Caustic Valley (and I'm sure other hot maps) to take into consideration.

And the bulk of Double Heat Sinks really is a concern, what with XL Engines, Endo Steel internal structure, and Ferro-Fibrous armor taking up lots of slots as well.

[Uri Brauer]

Alaric Wolf Kerensky, on 24 July 2012 - 12:34 AM, said:

DHS are balanced because of their massive bulk.

Think Hunchback, not Atlas. Most mechs have plenty of space, especially once you convert them into laser-boats.

Alaric Wolf Kerensky, on 24 July 2012 - 12:34 AM, said:

No offense but your idea sounds kind of foolish to me.

Saying 'no offense' first doesn't stop that from being insulting.

Durant Carlyle, on 24 July 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:

Double Heat Sinks are perfectly balanced with all of the other high-heat technologies available.

But they're not perfectly balanced with the good old medium laser.

[WardenWolf]

This is an interesting idea, but could potentially detract from DHS too much. At least we have several ideas about this topic floating out there for the Devs to consider, though Now if I could just get into the beta, to see what they have done so far...

[Fire for Effect]

Uri Brauer, on 24 July 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

But they're not perfectly balanced with the good old medium laser.

they do not need to bee you can build your dreaded missile boat perfectly easy with single heat sinks
I just grabbed my old record sheets see for example the HBK-4P
23 HS (single of course)
and 8 Md Laser
and you forget Hardpoints you simply will not have enough Hardpoints available for large amounts of laser weaponry...

[Uri Brauer]

Fire for Effect, on 24 July 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

they do not need to bee you can build your dreaded missile boat perfectly easy with single heat sinks
I just grabbed my old record sheets see for example the HBK-4P
23 HS (single of course)
and 8 Md Laser
and you forget Hardpoints you simply will not have enough Hardpoints available for large amounts of laser weaponry...

Yes, that's a dreaded missile boat all right. No, wait, it's a laser boat.

With DHS alone, I've shown that you can either:
a) swap out 2 MLs for 2 PPCs to make a Warhammer clone for 20t less than normal, or
b) speed the 4P up to 6/9 so it can get those MLs into range much more quickly.

And the hardpoints issue just means everyone will gravitate to the HBK-4P.

Edited by Uri Brauer, 24 July 2012 - 02:38 PM.

[Fire for Effect]

damn its a laser boat, that happens if you write deep in the night


IF the 4P will be available which I sincerely doubt... or has anyone seen it?

[JaxChris]

A hard point should just define that a weaponry set can be installed in that area. There shouldn't be a need for multiple hard points in the left torso just to install 2 Med Lasers there.

Is the game really limited against laser boats? If they are forcing individual hard points this will make these very limited in the customization department and will also reduce the amount spent on mech by players. If I want to build a rules legal missle boat or laser boat, make it happen. That has always been a core beauty to tabletop.

[Uri Brauer]

Fire for Effect, on 25 July 2012 - 08:22 AM, said:

IF the 4P will be available which I sincerely doubt... or has anyone seen it?

I've seen it in videos. It's possible they'll pull it back out, of course...

[Hexial]

JaxChris, on 25 July 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

If I want to build a rules legal missle boat or laser boat, make it happen. That has always been a core beauty to tabletop.

In TT you can stop min-maxing munchkins. In MWO you can't. People will do whatever they can to get the advantage, and there is no problem in that, but it makes game design absolutely crucial in order to make the diversity of mechwarrior weapons actually useful.

The point is, that ingame people will ditch every missile or autocannon variant and go purely for the DHS energy boats because DHS would, comparatively speaking, allow you to have masses of extra tonnage: for multiple tons of extra armour, no ammo limitations, more critical spaces, and more tonnage for weapons too.

Download Solaris Skunk Works and make a mech, any mech, based upon SHS. Then try one with DHS. Yeah... it's messed up for competitive play so much so that the Battletech devs had to make lbx autos, rotary autos and ammunition types to try and make autos viable again. Even with all that they did not succeed because people just go after energy-boats or Gauss packers in competitive games unless you limit them somehow.

In short: the Clan Hellstar.

[Fire for Effect]

I recommend Remlab for Mech construction

http://remlab.source...mlab30/mech.lab

4P is available well if you take it you will be very unhappy in a high temperature world

[Captain Nice HD]

Remlab is buggy as hell, and it's equipment list is far from complete. Solaris Skunk Werks is a vastly superior 'Mech design program, and Solaris Armor Werks is arguably better than Remlab for designing combat vehicles too, despite still being an Alpha build. As for designing ProtoMechs or aerospace units, I'd rather bite the bullet and just shell out $22 for HeavyMetal Lite or $29 for HeavyMetal Aero than put up with Remlab's eccentricities.

As far as I can tell, the only thing Remlab has going for it is building design, and I'm sure that there isn't a viable alternative out there.

Edited by Captain Nice HD, 25 July 2012 - 04:09 PM.

[Silvermoon]

Uhm - why, just wondering - why are we trying to compare a MMORPG to the TT. The rules of TT never survive the conversion into the Gaming World. I'm sure we'll have entirely NEW problems to worry about and none of them will be what rules the TT has. It'll be something like: The Light Mechs seem to out DPS the Larger Cousins or the accuratcy of the Missiles seems to be far too inaccurate to where I am aiming. Blah Blah Blah.

IF they put Dbl Heat Sinks in, I'm sure it'll just cool off the vehicles a tiny bit more, or whatever they decide to do with them. Not to the extreme the TT makes it. - Last thing people want is 1 item breaking the entire game. Making it so that if you do not have Dbl Heat Sinks you can't fight effecintly or at all. Those kind of items usually find their way to a BIG Nerf Bat, or removed all together. Tis the trend of the MMO, the masses out weigh (or cry?) game play usually.

[wanderer]

Durant Carlyle, on 24 July 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:

Double Heat Sinks are perfectly balanced with all of the other high-heat technologies available. ER PPCs, ER Large Lasers, and all sizes of Pulse Lasers produce more heat than single heat sinks can handle. Plus, there's Caustic Valley (and I'm sure other hot maps) to take into consideration.

And the bulk of Double Heat Sinks really is a concern, what with XL Engines, Endo Steel internal structure, and Ferro-Fibrous armor taking up lots of slots as well.

There's also the overall higher rates of fire. From the videos, 'Mechs are able to snap off shots more than once per 10 seconds with any given weapon. That means you're pumping out 2x, 3x, or more heat in the same time as TT- which means you'll need more heat sinks.

And in TT, many designs are already pushing it in terms of having enough critical spaces to fit them for efficient use. In theory, this means that DHS will have a drawback they lack in TT.

[Deceptor]

I feel a lot of TT stuff has been brought along from the past due to the fact that AI's don't complain about how easily you are beating the game. These goodies were usually only accessed later as a means to help the player feel as if they were upgrading as you went on, and this was easily balanced by the number of enemies you had to face in later missions. Go ahead and tweak away, Dev's. Any conflict between purists and MMO junkies can be resolved by setting up what is called a Roleplaying server.

[Lightdragon]

oh look another whiny idea from someone about double heat sinks..have you morons forgotten that dhs eat up criticals that could be used for weapons and ammo???its not a penalty free item

[Uri Brauer]

Lightdragon, on 29 July 2012 - 07:25 AM, said:

oh look another whiny idea from someone about double heat sinks..have you morons forgotten that dhs eat up criticals that could be used for weapons and ammo???its not a penalty free item

No, we haven't forgotten. That penalty is irrelevant to lights and mediums, and worth paying on most heavies. It only really bites on assaults.