318 replies to this topic

[Tesunie]

Tank, on 24 September 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

Stumbled on this video today, I don't play LoL and I don't know munch about it, but they have implemented interesting honor system that supposedly works for them with the player-base of modern players. I see this as hope for something similar for MWO Clan players.

http://www.youtube.c...bV_KT1iGao#t=83

That would be a cool system to have here. I wonder how it could be done...

[Threat Doc]

I went back and read one of my posts from January 2012 ( http://mwomercs.com/...dpost__p__80136 ) in this thread, and I still very much agree with what I said, perhaps even more so.

Tank, on 24 September 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

Stumbled on this video today, I don't play LoL and I don't know munch about it, but they have implemented interesting honor system that supposedly works for them with the player-base of modern players. I see this as hope for something similar for MWO Clan players.

http://www.youtube.c...bV_KT1iGao#t=83

PGI, for the love of mike, please pay attention to this? This doesn't have to be only for the Clans, though for them it would be something a lot more punitive than here. You're going to have contracting for Merc Corps when Community Warfare is finally, completely out, correct? Well, here's how honor can work in this game...

1) The individual ~ Each individual, as a lone wolf or a member of a house, builds their own honor, personally, which doesn't really have all that much of an effect, except if they act like monsters, replacement parts, ammo, repairs, etc., will be more expensive, and they won't, then, have the support of a Merc Corps.

2) The unit ~ A Merc Corps is full of individual players, each of whom are building their own honor, whether positive or negative. All of the honor values of every individual in a Merc Corps are averaged together -obviously, negative honor values would be subtracted from the overall positive total prior to the averaging of all individuals in the unit. The honor value of the unit acts in the very same way as the individual armor value, in that the cost of replacement parts, ammo, repairs, etc., are moved up for negative values, the reciprocal of which would be the availability, and this would also have a two-fold effect on contracting. If a contract comes up where dirty deeds need to be done, the unit with the negative honor value gets jobs like that across the Merc Comms, while units with increasing positive values get the better missions, including faction missions, not just border, and more money, better availability of parts, etc.

This would not keep individuals or units from fighting any other individuals or units; in fact, since you're focusing so much on the negative these days, PGI, perhaps you could understand that the dirty deeds part I mentioned, earlier, might be a contract to face off against these groups with positive ratings, to bring them down a peg, if you get my drift?

Not only can honor function, but per that video it could be a really good thing for this community. Gosh, 17 million players registered for MechWarrior Online, because it took the rare step of actually working to improve community relations? (looks up in the sky all starry-eyed) Wow (/looks). The cool thing is... now there's PROOF it can work.

Okay, now to go post that video somewhere else...

<S> all... have a great day!

[Tank]

Kay Wolf, on 24 September 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

I went back and read one of my posts from January 2012 ( http://mwomercs.com/...dpost__p__80136 ) in this thread, and I still very much agree with what I said, perhaps even more so.

PGI, for the love of mike, please pay attention to this? This doesn't have to be only for the Clans, though for them it would be something a lot more punitive than here. You're going to have contracting for Merc Corps when Community Warfare is finally, completely out, correct? Well, here's how honor can work in this game...

That's correct, I will be playing as a mercenary, but I play honorable regardless of system implementation.

Spoiler

At current state I follow these rules as a RP player:

• No killing of weaponless opponent
  
• Shut down is automatically accepted as surrender
  
• Chat message for surrender is accepted
  
• If clanner will issue me a batchall - ​I will gladly accept it with following of the all zellbrigen rules, and regardless of weight class. (looking forward to this)
  
• Disabling of opponent weapon systems if possible - regards about expensive machinery (Battlemech) and pilots life (elite pilots whom left not so many in galaxy). But as long as I remember clanners see this as a humiliation.

It costed me a lot of c-bills already, but the amount of fun I gained by extra challenge is way more bigger.

But regarding to other Inner Sphere pilots from the view of lore - I'm in confrontation, from one side IS combat never been considered as honorable, should we leave them a way they are or bind them to honor too? I'm personally all for honor system for IS, but historically this is not very correct.
Some reputation system might be better for IS players - to let know others players or faction to watch out, because this guy don't keeps his word for example, so they won't give job to him.
You have mentioned this, but I want to see this as other player decision, rather then implemented systems.

My main reason why I wish to see clanners obliged by honor system, is too see their tech at full strength and add more lore elements to game. I always welcome more challenge.

Edited by Tank, 24 September 2013 - 12:39 PM.

[Threat Doc]

Tank, it's not a matter of binding anyone to anything. There are people out there who do not want the community to be in charge of, or self-moderating, the community, but then there are also those who will not accept any sort of software-driven 'artificial' control of an honor system. So, where do you find the happy medium?

You don't. You use the software. If you fight dishonorably, act dishonorably, and are, in general, a *******, then realistically the contracts you come across will be more in-line with your attitude and way of acting, which is to say you will get contracts that are for dishonorable schmucks. It would add a level of realism to the game, without putting artificial limitations. After all, if you act like a dishonorable *******, then you will enjoy contracts for dishonorable schmucks; that will be your thing, right?

******** = s c h m u c k s, not anything else or more derogatory.

Edited by Kay Wolf, 24 September 2013 - 02:12 PM.

[Tank]

I got your point. The reason I don't want everything to be under software is that it takes a lot of time to implement, while some thing can balance themselves among players.

Main question for me is how your system will allow to players to clean up themselves, if they decide that it's enough and they are tiered, and no longer enjoy being dishonorable. How will they change if they get only dirty jobs? It's doubtful that you will get honor points for pillaging, terrorism or kidnapping.

[Threat Doc]

Tank, on 24 September 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

Main question for me is how your system will allow to players to clean up themselves, if they decide that it's enough and they are tiered, and no longer enjoy being dishonorable. How will they change if they get only dirty jobs? It's doubtful that you will get honor points for pillaging, terrorism or kidnapping.

What, do you think the scale only goes one way? There's always room for Jell-O.

[Gaan Cathal]

Virgil Caine, on 09 January 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

The most overlooked rules of Zellbrigen... Everyone knows the single-combat rules, but most people forget these...

The most overlooked rule of Zellbrigen is:

You are not required to observe Zellbrigen when fighting the dishonourable, inclusive of Bandit Caste, Periphery Powers, Inner Sphere Powers, Anyone That Breaks Any Zellbrigen Rules.

This means that as soon as two hostile mechs shoot the same target, one moves out of weapons range, anything like that, all bets (and gloves) are off and that you are free to assume that is already the case when fighting almost any non-Clan adversary. Certain Clans will have tendencies here, Clan Wolf will err towards being dishonourable scumfucks where possible, where Jade Falcon are more likely to try and preserve Zellbrigen where they can (using the two MW2 protagonist Clans as examples). Likewise if you're fighting Kurita RPers, you'll be more likely to get an 'honourable' response than when fighting...er....anyone else.

In practice, due to the "if they break Zellbrigen, bets off" rule, you can essentially ensure you follow Zellbrigen by avoiding taking the first shot. As soon as two separate hostiles fire on anyone, you get to open up.

[Threat Doc]

One Clanner to another Tubie... "Wait for it... wait for it... okay, they broke the rules, now we can too!" That's not honor, that's stupidity on paper.

[Gaan Cathal]

Kay Wolf, on 24 September 2013 - 09:35 PM, said:

One Clanner to another Tubie... "Wait for it... wait for it... okay, they broke the rules, now we can too!" That's not honor, that's stupidity on paper.

Turns out, if you say something in a stupid way, it sounds stupid.


More like, one Clanner to another: "Moving on hostile position, clear into C3, D3...taking fire from multiple hostiles! Honourless pig-dogs! {Insert whatever Clanners use for insults here} Crush them all!"

The point is, if Inner Sphere forces use combined fire e.t.c on Clanners, the Clanners are absolutely not required to just sit there and take it in the name of Zellbrigen.

[mbebe23]

So in the end why bother with honor?

[Threat Doc]

Gaan Cathal, on 24 September 2013 - 10:58 PM, said:

Turns out, if you say something in a stupid way, it sounds stupid.

Yes, such as talking about the JOKE that is Clan Honor, even just in the paper rules of the game.

Quote

More like, one Clanner to another: "Moving on hostile position, clear into C3, D3...taking fire from multiple hostiles! Honourless pig-dogs! {Insert whatever Clanners use for insults here} Crush them all!"

Okay, think about the irony of what you've just said. The writers for the Clans knew that, in the lore of the game, Inner Sphere MechWarrior's are taught to use concentrated/combined fire, in general, when necessary to win. They also knew, due to tabletop play over several years, that this was how Inner Sphere players played the game. Had they truly been concerned with honor for the Clans, rather than making a gimmick to attempt to hold back the Clans from abusing the superior technology, the honor rules would have been more strict, or at least written so it had a real effect. The only thing the Clan player has to wait for, thus, is the Inner Sphere player to act the way they're supposed to. Thus, the Clan rules of honor are a JOKE!

Quote

The point is, if Inner Sphere forces use combined fire e.t.c on Clanners, the Clanners are absolutely not required to just sit there and take it in the name of Zellbrigen.

You're right, which is what makes Clan rules a joke; it doesn't take ANYTHING for the release of hell from the Clans. The only place Inner Sphere honor exists -because of the way the community simply ignores most of the precepts set up in the novels and sourcebooks- is in those self-same novels and sourcebooks.

Someone earlier in this thread explained they would fight with honor to the best of their ability, regardless of the losses and/or circumstances, as will I, as have I. It's up to each individual, on the Inner Sphere side, what they do; however, that doesn't mean honor-effects can't have a potential effect, as it really would in a true Inner Sphere, which is largely managed by a sort of feudal system, concerning reputation, standing in various places MechWarrior's would serve in, etc. The lore behind the game, which is one of the things that's supposed to be a major part of this game, according to the developers in late 2011/early 2012, should make it important to consider how the feudal control of the Inner Sphere would work, the sorts of effects a modernized interstellar feudal system, complete with honor codes, would have on military units within the Inner Sphere. As well, it's been pointed out, before, that the lore explains the Ares Conventions were almost universally ignored within a half-decade of their signing by the nobles; however, decades later, many military commander's, and their elements with them, were NOT ignoring the conventions, and this pro-activity literally saved the Inner Sphere from becoming nothing but an interstellar smoking hulk.

Since people will not play within these generally nebulous rules, will not concern themselves with them, whether Clan or Inner Sphere, hard rules should be put in place within the game. Again, for the Clans, these rules would be more punitive, while for the Inner Sphere, they would only have an effect on the overall operations and, for Merc Corps, the types of contracts they are able to get. The direction individuals and units decide to go, overall together, whether a unit hires or gets rid of certain MechWarrior's, based on their personal reputations, would be entirely up to how they fight in the game. If they fight dirty, they get dirty further down the road, and if they decide to change directions, or fight clean from the beginning, they continue to get better contracts. For Clanners that fight dirty, they face the consequences outlined in the Clan books.

ONLY those capable of working within the Clan rules and limitations, who are not simply barbarians at the controls of 'Mechs, should be allowed to have the opportunity to play in the Clans. WHEN the Clans are released by PGI -and, frankly, the statement they made about concentrating on the Clans, now, when they should still be concentrating on the overall game (CW, modes, etc.) and Inner Sphere, is unacceptable to me-, play in the Clans should only be by invitation, once it's determined an individual has what it takes.

I am an Inner Sphere mercenary and, admittedly, I don't have what it takes, beyond my personal honor code, to be in the Clans; I have no problem admitting that, but I also would never fight for the Clans. When the Wolf's Dragoons from MechWarrior II/NetMech decided to switch over to Clan Goliath Scorpion, I left them, and within two months they disbanded altogether. I loved the Dragoons, and everyone in that unit were awesome people, but my hatred of the Clans is so much it almost takes on a real-life dimension. So, no Clans for me.

[fluffypinkbunny]

I have yet, in so many of my drops, to hear any clanner's either A. Admit they are such, or B. Been asked to bid my forces. Almost all of my matches start with GLHF... and then pew pew, there has yet to been a call for forces, bids, or even anybody asking for any sort of honor rules. It seems many hold to their "leagues" or pre arranged matches, but when it comes down to it, the one time I asked for any sort of honor, the lance of clan mechs I was facing said they would do what they could. I picked their leader, since I was out gunned anyways and Charged. Sure I was getting shot by many many others, but it didn't stop me. I charged the one mech I picked, and went down fighting. Being a inner sphere mech pilot we are less given the benefit of the doubt, I have never been asked or even heard discussed honor.

[-Muta-]

Vladdaimpaler77, on 09 January 2012 - 12:53 PM, said:

I've never seen the point of handicapping yourself, if the game permits certain tactics use em.

I go for the legs 99% of the time, I leg people and move on to leg the next one. Then the big guys come to finish the job.

In my particular case I LEAVE THE HONOR FOR OTHER PEOPLE... I play a smart game.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Virgil Caine, on 09 January 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

Zellbrigen's rules generally get discarded very early on by Clan Players... Most people who select Clans basically say "I get better stuffz!!! wewt" Then they pick a clan with a neato symbol, and behave like Inner Sphere pilots.

The most overlooked rules of Zellbrigen... Everyone knows the single-combat rules, but most people forget these...

1. You cannot move out of weapon range. Which basically means you must always either maintain current range, or close range. If you get inside their AC20's range, you MUST STAY THERE.
2. You cannot intentionally break Line of Sight... which means, no taking cover. No hiding behind hills and stuff like that.
3. If you can fire a weapon, you must fire that weapon. (heat permitting) So you cannot refrain from firing your AC20 at the long end of it's range increment, just to conserve ammo until you close in easy close-in shot. Neither can you refrain from firing your ERPPC's to conserve heat for a closer in alpha-strike with other weapons.

Munchkins love having the best weapons in the game, but almost never use these Rules, using the "Inner Sphere is dishonorable" cop-out.

1. Wrong. You cannot move out of the max range of ALL your weapons or the enemy's. You basically have to be in a position where fighting can take place.

2. Wrong again. You can use cover but not camp & that just means being a good sport. If you are configured as a missile boat/ long range support you may want to, but other configurations would be different.

3. Wrong a third time. This is not Battletech/TT, this is Mechwarrior. If my AC20 is primed & ready to go, but the enemy is turned sideways, I can choose to wait until he faces me before smashing him in the CT. It is at my discretion.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 25 September 2013 - 08:17 AM.

[Throe]

Kay Wolf, on 24 September 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

******** = s c h m u c k s, not anything else or more derogatory.

Its original meaning in Yiddish is the proper name of the phallus shaped male reproductive organ.

Edited by Throet, 25 September 2013 - 08:31 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Geist Null, on 09 January 2012 - 06:11 PM, said:

i find the clan rules silly at best. theres no room for honor in a numbers game. take out a leg you get more salvage. take out a mech from an ambush position with zero risk and you dont have to pay repairs. kill an ejected pilot and maybe he cant see which way you left the area with a deathcam or maybe stop his ability to spawn in a new mech. everyone loses in a war. so the only victory anyone can truely achieve is winning with the smallest margin of loss.

One of the Clan rules is bidding down forces which aims to achieve the smallest margin of loss. Guess those Clan rules are not that silly now are they? Legging has never been dishonorable & ambushes are allowed.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 25 September 2013 - 08:54 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Amarus Cameron, on 10 January 2012 - 10:58 AM, said:

I do not normally agree with Wolves but I wholeheartedly agree with what this one is saying.

Although a side note, 'trashborn' is what freeborns call trueborns...we would call him freebirth scum or something of the like

In all my reading, running of FanPro events and running of a long term Clan campaign, I do not remember ever reading a rule that forbade Clan warriors from using their 3-4 LPL + Targeting computer from removing an enemy's leg. A question. WOuld a Clan Warrior accept a dance of the scars in a Circle of Equals?

[Novakaine]

There are no Clans.
The Clans are a myth.
The Clans do not exist.
You have been warned.
FedCom MilSec

[Tank]

Kay Wolf, on 24 September 2013 - 08:45 PM, said:

What, do you think the scale only goes one way? There's always room for Jell-O.

It seemed for me like one way slope to the bottom, but after reading later post where you described everything in more detailed way - I have no questions anymore.

[Threat Doc]

Mutaroc, on 25 September 2013 - 06:48 AM, said:

I go for the legs 99% of the time, I leg people and move on to leg the next one. Then the big guys come to finish the job.

In my particular case I LEAVE THE HONOR FOR OTHER PEOPLE... I play a smart game.

That's a smart game? Or, is it just the most expedient way you've learned from others to act on? Your expedience has the bad side effect of ruining the fun of others. Being appropriately competitive is one thing, while seeking only the solitary win, even if your entire team reaps what you sow, takes away the fun of others and destroys people's desire to play. Either that, or they form posse's to hunt you down and end your legging spree.