318 replies to this topic

[dal10]

the arguing thread got bird country'd...

[Joseph Mallan]

Yes it did.

[dal10]

still trying to figure out why me and adridos are on the dezgra list. I don't remember doing anything to the clans besides one kinda trollish thread that raised a legitimate point...

Edited by dal10, 22 October 2013 - 06:13 AM.

[CyclonerM]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 October 2013 - 05:48 AM, said:

So discussing Honor in a thread about Honor is wrong?

We should discuss honor, not Clans internal issues

[Joseph Mallan]

CyclonerM, on 22 October 2013 - 06:15 AM, said:

We should discuss honor, not Clans internal issues

True... But the idea of Honor is a personal thing. So Discussing it will need to infringe on personal concepts. Like those who seem to have the least honor seem to shout the loudest about being honorable...

[dal10]

that is generally how it works.


like the people who complain about the trash in our carts generally leave more in them...

(i clean it up whenever i have time. but on weekends i tend to not have enough to keep the vestibule full, let alone clean up every cart...)

[John Wolf]

Just remember to keep things on topic. Discussion about the topic is fine, but don't target someone specifically.

As for that, there is a list? You clanners keep a black book? Whats happening in here?

[dal10]

John Wolf, on 22 October 2013 - 07:07 AM, said:

Just remember to keep things on topic. Discussion about the topic is fine, but don't target someone specifically.

As for that, there is a list? You clanners keep a black book? Whats happening in here?

meh, like i have said before. this is absolutely tame compared to the {Scrap} i went through. i got called a traitor and numerous other things more times than i can count (i can count pretty damn high) over 3 different forum sections. It ended up with the Skye Rangers banning several members for making their unit look like an ***. (though they will never admit that is why.)

All because one member abused his position and i called him on it.

[Threat Doc]

Man, all of this makes me feel a ton better about what happened in Armageddon Unlimited. Of course, what happened in September 2012 was also based on some petty {Scrap} that, if someone had been doing his job the way he was supposed to, it wouldn't have happened in the first place, we would be even stronger, would have gotten over a pretty decently sized hump, and would pretty much be status quo, now. However, that's in the past, and I'm yet vacillating over whether or not I will reopen the unit.

[Jakob Knight]

Hmmm. It is, in a way, refreshing to know that Clan Grand Council sessions still end up in the respectful and civilized way I remember before I was sent on this scouting mission. It reinforces that honor is not something to be determined by one's Clan, but by the warrior themselves.

And I certainly wonder at those Clansmen who hold mercenaries who have honorably held to the traditions of the Star League Defense Forces and their own principles rather than join the Successor Lords who tore down the Star League in the first place as surrats and dezgra. I have met quite a few Inner Sphere warriors who could instruct a few sibkos I have seen in the actual meaning of honor, so I would not be so quick with the automatic assumption that any group has a monopoly on the concept.

But then, I am but a freeborn warrior. No doubt the Khans and sa-Khans of the Clans know all of this.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 22 October 2013 - 08:57 AM.

[dal10]

i got to laugh at the fact that the clan wolf site had its dezgra list removed. .

[guardian wolf]

Honor is earned through hard fought battles, and while yes, an irrevocable act, a heinous act, can revoke any and all honor, I believe that someone should be given the chance to prove themselves, if not worthy of their former position, then at least mostly forgiven of the offense, and given a slight reprimand. I do not know the details of it though, so I shall let Coffi deal with the specifics. On the battlefield it has a place.

[Threat Doc]

First, I agree with Guardian Wolf, but I feel like there's more to it, as follows...

Kittenkrusher, on 22 October 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

Who decides honor though...who decides who is dezgra... some fat guy in a chair in his basement??

Let me address this in two parts,

1) Honor is not determined by a single person, it is rather decided on like our laws are. Murder is wrong, for example, so there is a law against murder. The same with theft, the same with **** or molestation. There are some pretty stupid laws on the books, as well, throughout our real-world, but they are laws, nonetheless, and were decided on by the community through the use of the courts and/or mediators who make a final determination to what is right, wrong, or otherwise. Most people who help establish laws are going to help monitor the usefulness/desire of the community to maintain the law, and will appoint others -law enforcement-, to maintain those laws.

Not all individuals, however, follow the rules. In the real-world, if these people are caught, there is some manner of punishment coming to them, from a basic slap on the wrist to incarceration for many years at a time.

In our environment, and in all game environments, the unit is, most typically, formed by one or a few people from the community, and they try to make the best decisions possible for the intra-unit community they're trying to form as a sub-sect of the community. Not only do they form the rules, but they may also determine what honor is defined as within their unit.

Honor is NOT as stringent, typically, as the law, but it's still formed corporately, and individuals determine whether they will follow the rules or not. If they do not follow the rules, the community that formed the unwritten rules of honor, determines any penalties, as well. Again, this may come down to an individual making the determination, though it should be something dealt with, in our gaming community, as in others, corporately, by the Command & Staff.

2) I've probably already answered this, above, but whether the laws, rules, and honor of a unit are determined by a fat guy in a basement, the Command & Staff, or by truly corporate means in the unit-community, whomever did the work to form it should be respected and heard, until enough people 'grow up' enough in the unit to be able to suggest changes; at least THAT GUY had the balls, the time, and the desire to form the unit.

Quote

... does he get to undo all the good things a person has done by simply hitiing 6 keys on a keyboard. Do you feel its ok that after say 50 years of being a good man some punk can come home after his shift at 7/11 and tell you that you are honorless??

No. Any dishonorable conduct should be researched and corrective measures should be developed to 'rehabilitate' that individual, if an honor slight is determined.

For my part, when I've had someone act dishonorably in the past in AU, others in the unit have put forward designs to help move someone along in the right direction, and the problem is corrected quickly. Honor is a guideline, and most people look to guidelines for how they should act to continue to be accepted by the unit-community. Unfortunately, during the second iteration of AU, one of my younger players -I think he was 16 at the time?- was acting in contravention of the honor rules established between the advent of NetMech '95 and MechWarrior 3 online play. His commander tried to talk to him, and he improved for a little while, and then my Training OIC of the time spoke with him, and he improved for a little while, and then my Training OIC made a proposal to take the young man under his wing and teach him what it meant to fight honorably. The younger man improved for about three months, and I was just preparing to promote him to a Company Command, when he went off on one of the most important missions we had and legged EVERYONE, on both the enemy team and our own.

This came to a courts-martial which resulted, within two days of his hearing, to completely fracture the unit. So, it bears saying that it's absolutely crucial that honor violations be handled appropriately and delicately. The members of the Command & Staff have to be absolutely dedicated to the well-being of the unit AND dedicated to backing one-another up. In my case, though I considered those in my Command & Staff to be good friends, and I knew they knew they were supposed to back me up, but when it came to letting this one MechWarrior go, they would rather have a nasty-mouthy kid pretending to be a decent person on their side, just because he was very good at online combat, rather than the order and peace of mind that could have resulted from getting rid of the punk-***.

So, to sort of reiterate: honor is determined, usually unwritten, by the unit-community, but each individual has to determine whether they will follow it or not. If they decide they will not follow the established honor code, they should be prepared for some manner of punitive reaction.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Kittenkrusher, on 22 October 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

Who decides honor though...who decides who is dezgra... some fat guy in a chair in his basement?? ... does he get to undo all the good things a person has done by simply hitiing 6 keys on a keyboard. Do you feel its ok that after say 50 years of being a good man some punk can come home after his shift at 7/11 and tell you that you are honorless??

The individual by his actions or inactions, the words that he speaks & the company he keeps. Star Colonel Adler Malthus had a stellar record until Twycross. His actions dishonored himself, the Falcon Guards, everyone with the Malthus Bloodname & the Jade Falcons in general. It was so bad Timur Malthus had to resign as Khan & when the next Trial of Bloodright for the Malthus Bloodname came around, nobody wanted it & it eventually went to an Elemental. So yes surat, all the good deeds Adler Malthus did up to the Great Gash were moot because of his t a i n t.

Quote

The battle's aftermath devastated Clan Jade Falcon even further. When one Bloodright of a given Bloodname is disgraced, other Bloodrights of the same Bloodname usually suffer no repercussions. In this case, however, the shame of the defeat on Twycross affected the entire Malthus Bloodname. The lost honor did not significantly affect the codexes of the other Bloodnamed warriors, but rivals of the Malthus Bloodheritage created such a severe political backlash in the Clan council that Khan Timur Malthus was forced to resign. The same political maneuvering sent most of the Malthus Bloodnamed warriors back to Clan space with strict orders to avoid causing any further disgrace to their Clan.

Jade Falcon Sourcebook Pgs.28-29

Quote

"I imagine the invasion is improving the pedigrees of a number of Bloodnames." Phelan smiled as he tried to imagine what the pedigree of Natasha's Bloodname would be.

The ilKhan shrugged. "It has enhanced some and destroyed others. One of House Malthus' Bloodnames was disgraced on Twycross. The leader of the Falcon Guards led his troops into an ambush and they were destroyed. While we were on Strana Mechty, they conducted a contest for the name, but no MechWarriors would touch it, so it went to an Elemental."

The disgust in Ulric's voice made it clear that he considered the commander's stupidity second only to that of someone actually entering a contest for that Bloodname. "I do not imagine you brought me here to discuss Bloodnames. How may I be of service?"

Blood of Kerensky Trilogy Book 3 - Lost Destiny

Quote

The Elemental's piggish eyes opened wide as Kai's remark hit home. "Our Star Captain may have won himself a Bloodname, but it is t a i n t e d. No one would fight for it because of the disgrace of its last owner on Twycross. Taman's lack of judgement in going for a Bloodname with an inferior pedigree is again evident in his caution concerning you. Were you as dangerous as he thinks, your capture would guarantee my nomination in the next Bloodname contest for House Konrad. As it is now, you will be the core of a joke I tell."

Blood of Kerensky Trilogy Book 3 - Lost Destiny

WTH t a i n t is censored?

Quote

Megasa turned to face the audience. "I realize that it is unorthodox for me to speak now of any matter except my choices as hunter," he boomed in a voice that easily reached the last row of the assembly, "but there is an issue of importance to this final Bloodname contest that must be emphasized. Important not only for myself, but for all Clan Jade Falcon. This warrior has dishonored us, and I will not permit him to further tarnish the glory of our Clan." The words drew a roar of approval from the crowd, while they made Aidan wonder if the Oathmaster could not simply scrap all the ritual and let him and Megasa slug it out here and now.

"The Pryde Bloodname is an honorable one," Megasa boomed on. "Even when we have not yet won the right to bear the Pryde name, those of us who share the bloodline venerate our heritage. Generations of our Bloodnamed warriors have fought and often died gloriously in battle. They did not die so that our line could be tainted by a warrior who, in spite of his true birth, is more freeborn than true. On the planet Hector, several fine warriors in my Star were killed in a fierce battle with the Hell's Horses Clan. To avenge their death, we wiped out the entire Cluster to which those Hell's Horses warriors belonged. That is what it means to be a Jade Falcon warrior.

"Why else would the Bloodnames of our Clan be so widely respected? Why else would the other Clans so often attempt to seize the Jade Falcon gene legacies? It is because we, of all the Clans, produce the finest warriors. We cannot condone anything that brings us shame instead of esteem. Let us not allow this warrior to disgrace us any longer."

With a nod of his head, Megasa finished his speech and turned back to the Oathmaster. Even though public displays were forbidden during the Bloodright ritual, a clamorous cheer went up in the vast audience. Risa Pryde's hand immediately shot up to quiet it, but Megasa had made his point and the
warriors of Clan Jade Falcon had seconded it. Aidan was the enemy. He must be defeated. For an instant, Aidan almost believed it himself.

Jade Phoenix Trilogy Book 2 - Bloodname

Quote

When her image finished listening to his words, Clees’ eyes hardened. “Gamma Galaxy will wipe the Ice Hellions off Lackhove,” she said, “and every other world the Jade Falcons claim. Because of the actions of your Clan on Wotan and Evciler, I have named the Ice Hellions dezgra in the eyes of the Jade Falcons.”

Rood’s jaw clenched. He was careful to make certain his fists did not, but Clees could not fail to see the prominent muscles in his jaw work. It wasn’t the words themselves—not directly, anyway—but what they represented.

Dezgra. To be named dezgra by a Clan was to be named filth, no better that bandits. It meant that the naming Clan no longer felt bound by the conventions of zellbrigen, and that they were free to attack anywhere, at any time, using as much force as necessary and whatever tactics they chose to eradicate the disgraced.

Put simply, it meant that the Jade Falcons’ gloves had come off.

In Clan space, declarations of dezgra were rarely leveled except by individuals against individuals. To name a Clansman a bandit was to invite challenge; a Trial of Grievance atbest, or a Trial of Refusal. For a Clan khan to name an entire Clan dezgra meant that theJade Falcons had challenged the Ice Hellions into, effectively, a Trial of Annihilation. The only way for Rood and his Hellions to wipe the stain off of their honor, in the Jade Falcons’eyes, was to defeat them in combat.

But that was all for the future. What mattered now was surviving the next several days.

“What actions on Wotan?” he asked.

“I will have recordings forwarded,” Clees said, “since your own disgraceful subordinates have failed to report their actions. Several weeks ago your Galaxy Commander Philippe Lienet ordered an aerial bombardment of Borealtown. Bondsmen taken afterward tell us he hoped to destroy the Seventy-eighth Falcon Provisional Garrison Cluster. He failed, and Star Colonel Terrence, my senior officer, provided incontrovertible proof. Thousands—tens of thousands—of Falcon castemen are dead. An entire city was destroyed, a city that already witnessed the death of two khans, and the birth and rebirth of a Clan.”

Rood swallowed. He wanted to shout, to say it was a lie, but he did not. He had not seen the evidence.

“On Evciler, your own so-called khan ran from battle, luring a Falcon Galaxy Commander into a near-ambush. The disgraceful attack by your Zeta Prime Galaxy against the honorably-bid battle between the Alpha Galaxies proves that the Ice Hellions do not hold with Clan standards of honor.”

Operation Ice Storm Pt.1 - The Frost Advances

Be thankful we are not Clan Wolf & have been ordered to exercise restraint when it comes to the likes of you.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 23 October 2013 - 03:52 AM.

[MarauderBronze]

I would ask a question that I feel has been lost in the debate in this thread:

Is it more honorable to kill and punish others because you are able than let live so that one day you may face them as a worthy opponent? If you believe that someone is not worth your energy, time, or effort, then should you expend all three, going out of your way to let them know that they are not worthy?

[Joseph Mallan]

Kittenkrusher, on 22 October 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

Who decides honor though...who decides who is dezgra... some fat guy in a chair in his basement?? ... does he get to undo all the good things a person has done by simply hitiing 6 keys on a keyboard. Do you feel its ok that after say 50 years of being a good man some punk can come home after his shift at 7/11 and tell you that you are honorless??

Sounds like a govenment to me Kitten. That Punk can say what ever he wants. I and everyone who I care about, knows better. So does the Punk, even if he won't admit it to himself. If you were secure in your Honor, you would not have to get so upset.

[Joseph Mallan]

MarauderBronze, on 23 October 2013 - 03:26 AM, said:

I would ask a question that I feel has been lost in the debate in this thread:

Is it more honorable to kill and punish others because you are able than let live so that one day you may face them as a worthy opponent? If you believe that someone is not worth your energy, time, or effort, then should you expend all three, going out of your way to let them know that they are not worthy?

There is no honor in removing a blight. Even is it is deemed necessary to do. The honor is earned in doing what you were told not that you did it.

[Jakob Knight]

Kittenkrusher, on 22 October 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

Who decides honor though...who decides who is dezgra... some fat guy in a chair in his basement?? ... does he get to undo all the good things a person has done by simply hitiing 6 keys on a keyboard. Do you feel its ok that after say 50 years of being a good man some punk can come home after his shift at 7/11 and tell you that you are honorless??

Well, I am certain a business executive who peers down at the lower classes from his glass office and sips fine wine while considering how many of his employees he should fire to make his company look better on the annual spreadsheet is much more qualified in your view to make decisions on honor.

Perhaps that fat guy in the basement is there because he stood up when that executive tried to cover up corruption and graft and was then 'released for cause', losing his job in response for standing on his principles. Perhaps that fat guy in the basement tries to tell people that doing something because you can is not the right thing to do. Perhaps that fat guy in the basement is there because he refuses to leave his parents to fail in their old age while he is off enjoying life and making millions.

Your definition of how a person is to be known as honorable, and who is qualified to make such decisions is in need of serious reworking, quiaff?

[Jaroth Corbett]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 October 2013 - 03:59 AM, said:

Sounds like a govenment to me Kitten. That Punk can say what ever he wants. I and everyone who I care about, knows better. So does the Punk, even if he won't admit it to himself. If you were secure in your Honor, you would not have to get so upset.

Which is why he did because he knows what he did.

Kittenkrusher, on 23 October 2013 - 04:10 AM, said:

Oh lol I'm not..... I know unlike someone's else here that it's a game and a story that someone thought up... It's not real. So my honor is very much intact I back my friends up and my family is happy and safe. That's real honor. Enjoy your comics kid
So that's my point of view real honor it's having the guts to back up your mates even if it means facing harassment a badgering. To not stick with the pack and leave ur mates out to hang. I think that if my team mate gets caught in the lines of fire and I go out there to save him or to die next to him then I have shown honor.... So yes honor does exist in this game, because I have done just that very thing and others have done it for me.

I know it is a game. I am speaking about your actions relating to the game. I do not know you IRL & have never made any points to that effect. Nice try with the deflection.

P.S. Thank you showing your mental lethargy by falling back to the old "Kid". You gave me a nice laugh before I leave for work, which by the way is not in a 7/11. ROFLMAO

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 23 October 2013 - 04:24 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Quote

The individual by his actions or inactions, the words that he speaks & the company he keeps. Star Colonel Adler Malthus had a stellar record until Twycross. His actions dishonored himself, the Falcon Guards, everyone with the Malthus Bloodname & the Jade Falcons in general. It was so bad Timur Malthus had to resign as Khan & when the next Trial of Bloodright for the Malthus Bloodname came around, nobody wanted it & it eventually went to an Elemental. So yes surat, all the good deeds Adler Malthus did up to the Great Gash were moot because of his t a i n t.

Missed that part did we?

EDIT: I just noticed your sig. I guess having three Khans would have been problematic huh?

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 23 October 2013 - 04:45 AM.