318 replies to this topic

[Nuke and Glow]

If you ain't first your last.

[Wiggen]

Kay Wolf, on 09 January 2012 - 01:22 PM, said:

Honor is not about handicapping, it's about having a civilized, relatively fair, non-barbaric means of winning. I've said it before, and I say it again, now... cowards fight dishonorably.

They also live longer...

[Wiggen]

Also, trying to make fighting it out with 100 ton machines of war less barbaric sounds about as destined for success as introducing a higher level of etiquette into professional football...

[Threat Doc]

You would be amazed at the level of etiquette there used to be in football, as there was with the BattleTech/MechWarrior community, Wiggen.

It's funny to me that you don't deem the word 'coward' as derogatory... hmmm.

[Wiggen]

It's the fact that certain strategies are considered cowardice that I don't agree with. Armies used to stand shoulder to shoulder over open fields and exchange volleys. That didn't make them "brave." Similarly, Native Americans and the Vietnamese employed subterfuge and guerrilla tactics to great effectiveness, and that did not make them "cowards." It's why I hate the neanderthals who don't have a plan to protect their base shouting names at the other team when they get capped out (and don't worry, "death match" mode will be here soon).

War is about being better at killing the other guy and bringing as many of your buddies back alive as you can.

Either way, we're talking about a fictitious universe and pretend robots here. I know there are a lot of people deeply invested in the cannon, and that's fine. As for me, I'm going to figure out what the most effective way to kill the other guy and chalk up a victory is between this patch and the next and have at it.

Edited by Wiggen, 11 October 2013 - 09:18 PM.

[CyclonerM]

Wiggen, on 11 October 2013 - 09:15 PM, said:

It's the fact that certain strategies are considered cowardice that I don't agree with. Armies used to stand shoulder to shoulder over open fields and exchange volleys. That didn't make them "brave." Similarly, Native Americans and the Vietnamese employed subterfuge and guerrilla tactics to great effectiveness, and that did not make them "cowards." It's why I hate the neanderthals who don't have a plan to protect their base shouting names at the other team when they get capped out (and don't worry, "death match" mode will be here soon).

War is about being better at killing the other guy and bringing as many of your buddies back alive as you can.

Either way, we're talking about a fictitious universe and pretend robots here. I know there are a lot of people deeply invested in the cannon, and that's fine. As for me, I'm going to figure out what the most effective way to kill the other guy and chalk up a victory is between this patch and the next and have at it.

This i know. But if you can decide the possession of a design, a planet or a genetic legacy risking less warriors and machines and avoiding any collateral damage to civilians.. That's batter, quiaff?

Jaroth Winson, on 11 October 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

The last time I checked, Marthe was sleeping with Vlad. Phelan's Wolves are considered the traitors. So................

It is a different point of view, quiaff?

Edited by CyclonerM, 13 October 2013 - 11:51 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Jaroth Winson, on 11 October 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

The last time I checked, Marthe was sleeping with Vlad. Phelan's Wolves are considered the traitors. So................

depends on who you are talking to Jaroth. Most Falcons have a hate on for any Wolf Home World or Abjured. And Vlad did kill a Falcon Khan on the conclave floor. Though within the letter of the law...

[CyclonerM]

Joseph Mallan, on 14 October 2013 - 04:01 AM, said:

depends on who you are talking to Jaroth. Most Falcons have a hate on for any Wolf Home World or Abjured. And Vlad did kill a Falcon Khan on the conclave floor. Though within the letter of the law...

Freebirth, seems that just everyone hates the Wolves. May it be because of our victories and our power...?

BTW, you are right, is a matter of point of view. For the Clans and the IS Trent was a traitor but for him the traitor was his Clan; for me, the Crusader Clans and even our home Wolves brethen are traitor to the true Alexandr Kerensky's vision. For the Falcons both the Wolves halves are just as treacherous (but we might learn something about it from your Khan Vandervhan Chistu.. )...And for the people of the Inner Sphere ALL the Clans are the evil of the universe.
Points of view.

Edited by CyclonerM, 14 October 2013 - 08:29 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

CyclonerM, on 14 October 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

Freebirth, seems that just everyone hates the Wolves. May it be because of our victories and our power...?

BTW, you are right, is a matter of point of view. For the Clans and the IS Trent was a traitor but for him the traitor was his Clan; for me, the Crusader Clans and even our home Wolves brethen are traitor to the true Alexandr Kerensky's vision. For the Falcons both the Wolves halves are just as treacherous (but we might learn something about it from your Khan Vandervhan Chistu.. )...And for the people of the Inner Sphere ALL the Clans are the evil of the universe.
Points of view.

Unless you are with the Kellhounds or Wolf's Dragoons that is. As to your Power... My Clan (Star Adders) purposely did not bid well, because they knew it was a foolish idea that so few troops could actually beat the massed might of the Inner Sphere. Attrition is a wicked equalizer.

[CyclonerM]

Joseph Mallan, on 14 October 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

Unless you are with the Kellhounds or Wolf's Dragoons that is. As to your Power... My Clan (Star Adders) purposely did not bid well, because they knew it was a foolish idea that so few troops could actually beat the massed might of the Inner Sphere. Attrition is a wicked equalizer.

We knew that - but hey, we managed to capture so many planets in a few months - . If you remember, Clan Wolf was against the invasion. We failed to Refuse it, so they included us in the invasion force as punishment. As you can see i am a Warden and my purpose is to make sure that the invasion actually FAILS.

OT: I thought there was at least a CSA unit in MWO .. ?
.

[Joseph Mallan]

CyclonerM, on 14 October 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

We knew that - but hey, we managed to capture so many planets in a few months - . If you remember, Clan Wolf was against the invasion. We failed to Refuse it, so they included us in the invasion force as punishment. As you can see i am a Warden and my purpose is to make sure that the invasion actually FAILS.

OT: I thought there was at least a CSA unit in MWO .. ?
.

Personally You have to hand it to the Writers. Clan Wolf captured a planet with a single warrior, and most of their Invasion corridor with minimal collateral damage. Clan Wolf did a great job showing up the Crusaders IYAM.

[CyclonerM]

Joseph Mallan, on 14 October 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

Personally You have to hand it to the Writers. Clan Wolf captured a planet with a single warrior, and most of their Invasion corridor with minimal collateral damage. Clan Wolf did a great job showing up the Crusaders IYAM.

And showing that Warden does not mean weak. This is the best point the Crusader had against them..

[Losobal]

There can't really be 'honor' in a game with no real consequences. Its too indepth a function for the devs to try to implement. Everyone is an immortal vat-job with magically regenerating mechs. If a Clan type loses, what, does that mean they have to leave their clan because they'd been taken into bond?

[Threat Doc]

CyclonerM, on 14 October 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

Freebirth, seems that just everyone hates the Wolves.

Not EVERYONE, hehe. If I absolutely had to fall as a Bondsman to a Clan, I would definitely prefer the Wolves.

Yes, everyone hates the Wolves, just like everyone hates Davion, who aren't from either of those two, because of the strength and success they have.

Quote

Points of view.

Absolutely. My personal point-of-view, until I got used to them around 2000, was that they destroyed BattleTech for me, altogether. Mike Stackpole, Loren Coleman, and all of the other writers who laid down what the Clans were about, got me to accept them as part of the universe, but it took thousands of pages of written material for them to do it. I still don't accept them and, from a mercenary point-of-view, I do despise the tubies, in general, as well as Liao, followed by Kurita, then Marik... I'm a FedCom guy, but more importantly a mercenary, and that is never going to change. I can literally trace that back to The Foxes Teeth sourcebook for McKinnon's Raiders. Fell in love with being a Merc in BattleTech from the moment I finished that source, and it's always been very cool for me to be a Merc.

Losobal, on 15 October 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

There can't really be 'honor' in a game with no real consequences. Its too indepth a function for the devs to try to implement. Everyone is an immortal vat-job with magically regenerating mechs. If a Clan type loses, what, does that mean they have to leave their clan because they'd been taken into bond?

That IS a hard subject to define, for sure. You can't exactly make bondsmen of characters, and you're right that this isn't an RPG, even though there are a ton of people on here that will make role-play where possible, and as you've witnessed in THIS thread, hehe.

So, that would leave us with more or less nebulous penalties. If I were doing the Clans in this game, and using what Bryan was talking about at the Launch Event about opening up slots in the canon units once certain requisites were completed -still in talks, not planning, I know, but still a good example-, I would still make it an invitation only thing. I would actually allow potential Clanners, however, to know what the rules were, what hoops needed to be jumped through on the Inner Sphere side, including recording hits and combat styles, in order to be invited to join the Clans. Then, even if we got a bunch of twitch-happy kids who followed the rules ONLY for the sake of getting into the Clans, we would still have those in the Clans who understood what it means to be in the Clans.

It's like with Armageddon Unlimited -and I've just validated this means for myself through this conversation, so that's cool-, I will accept anyone into the unit, but in order to be invited to play in the higher echelons, there are hoops to jump through, things to be completed, time-in-service and promotion points to be gathered for the sake of moving into positions of authority.

There are a lot of folks who would say all that I've addressed in this post, whether for the Clans, canon Merc units, or my own Merc unit, it's pretty silly and people aren't going to go for it; to which I respond, that's the point. For my own Merc unit, it means I will have a dearth of people, while for MWO the potential consequences are much more dire, the loss of revenue from that potential well of Clan players, whether they deserve to be Clan players or not. However, the QUALITY of people must have some modicum of import, or you're going to have a game where the people who will support the game in its entirety will, instead, go away, because a bunch of twitcher punks have chased them out, just like they did with MechWarrior III, MechWarrior IV -all versions, even NBT-HC and Mektek-, and as has happened to all on-line play, even with games such as MechAssault. Yes, the community tried to make these games survive in online play, and they did for years, as free entities, but what types of players were there, really?

I would posit to you that you had only the very elite-of-the-elite when it came to those who loved and cared for the lore, and on the other side you had the twitchers who trash-talked about things they knew NOTHING about, and truly disrespected everyone and chased off anyone who couldn't hang.

That's not what BattleTech, whether in the lore, on the tabletop, nor in the computer games, were supposed to be about. Trash-talking, okay, but learning to fight the 'Mechs and being able to face off against those that know tactics rather than brutality and dishonorable conduct on the battlefield. There's still a lot of brutality, but at least folks who love the universe have a place to play, now, and I've seen bloody little trash talk that I've actually had to pay attention to.

In this instance, glasses up to PGI for what they have created. Long may they continue to see all of us, not just what can be done by twitchers and the game lore-ignorant, and may they return from going afield on things like 3PV and Coolant.

Sorry for the rambling. I finished my last college course for this semester, except for the class survey, today, and I've had time to think.

Honor is important. Player actions don't have to be regulated, and I would never advocate for anything that controls a player, any player. However, I will strongly advocate for making an attempt at teaching players what this universe is supposed to be about, and that includes honor... from many quarters.

[CyclonerM]

Kay Wolf, on 15 October 2013 - 01:04 PM, said:

*wall of text*

Awesome post

[Victor Morson]

Tilley, on 09 January 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

After reading on an old clan website from MW:4, I remember just how much focus was placed on the honor system. Back then, there were certain cheats that most people knew about and knew how to spot when used. I'm just curious if honor will play such a role in the upcoming MW:0. If I remember correctly, during a lance battle, legging the opponent was considered cheap and dishonorable. I am by no means suggesting that this rule is followed now, but wondering what online ground rules some of the clans might decide to choose. Often times, legging a smaller mech was the only way to hit the d*mn thing and get it to slow down. Legging is just an example, just wanted to hear everyone's thoughts about honor and it's uses for online play.

Does this help us win?

If Yes: DO IT.

My honor system in a nutshell.

[101011]

Kay Wolf, on 15 October 2013 - 01:04 PM, said:

Yes, everyone hates the Wolves, just like everyone hates Davion, who aren't from either of those two, because of the strength and success they have.

Nah, I don't hate the Wolves...I just like Ghost Bear better. (And I hate Davion because they're freaking Prince Charming who can do no wrong)

[CyclonerM]

101011, on 15 October 2013 - 02:06 PM, said:

Nah, I don't hate the Wolves...I just like Ghost Bear better. (And I hate Davion because they're freaking Prince Charming who can do no wrong)

Yeah this is right, but someone has to be better than the others.. There is a reason there are no novels AFAIK telling stories from a Liao warrior ahahah

[Tannhauser Gate]

Vladdaimpaler77, on 09 January 2012 - 12:53 PM, said:

I've never seen the point of handicapping yourself, if the game permits certain tactics use em.

There will be folks who have fun winning the game at all costs. These people probably dont care about the genre, or the story, the history of BT. To them its unnecesary fluff

But, there are fair number of people who want to experience BT as more than just a win lose combat sim. They want to be immersed to varying degrees in the BT genre. Fandom takes many forms. If players want to go whole hog and observe Clan traditions and rules of engagement, form clan units, have trials and duels, etc.. then they should do it and the game should accomodate it.

No one should be smacked down for their style of combat or choice of immersion into the game and BT genre.. or lack of it. There is a limit though. The "win at all costs" crowd also includes hax, exploit abusers, and cheaters. They should be incinerated..literally.

Edited by LakeDaemon, 16 October 2013 - 10:41 AM.

[-Muta-]

Never should have existed... is a simple game. NOT RL