153 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Should be part of the side torso. If you start adding hit locations it leads to a slippery slope for balance....

like "why does the missile launcher on my atlas count as part of the side torso when the madcats doesnt when the atlas' side torso is just as easy to hit".

[Atayu]

The shoulder launchers are part of the side torso's always have except in MW4 witch come on they screwed up all kinds of stuff. If it is given more hitboxs it is instant overpowered even without rest of the advantages it will already have. The LRM launcher packs are part of the left and right torso plain and simple. If they make them separate parts of the mech they are throwing poo at there own game and it will fail slightly after that. I do not think this is going to happen though they will make them parts of the side torso's like they should be.

[UnseenFury]

Great thread, OP. I was thinking about this issues yesterday since current paper doll does not include external missile pods.

My Timber Wolf should have Missile Racks as separate hit boxes, AND developers really need to update the paper doll for mechs with missile pods.

[Zolthar]

My only big concern by having the Missle pod merged with the side torsos is that if you are using an XL engine, having the missile destroyed will also destroy your engine therefore your Mech... I don't see why my engine would be linked to the missile pod.

Maybe find a way to force the ammo to be place outside the pods and have a separate low armor hitbox for the pods.

Also, to remain fair and balanced, maybe have the maximum (combined back/front) armor of the side torso reduced in regard to the armor the pods would have.

[Mr Jett]

As a close follower of the Battletech universe and huge fan of the TT game and RPG as well as a diehard fan of the MechWarrior franchise I have my own opinions about this matter.

First and foremost, we are all aware the 2D rules and turn-based gameplay of the TT does not directly translate into 3D action-orientated gameplay.

That said; some things may need to be adjusted to "realistic" physics and logic versus board-game rules.

I adore the fact that PGI is holding true to keeping weapon values true to TT stats, and that PGI is keeping canon. As they have had to realize the hard-way that certain weapons don't translate very well sticking to the TT values and had to undergo slight adjustments. I'm completely understanding of this.

The issue of the Mad Cat (Timber Wolf) hitboxes brings in an interesting topic to think about. I see a clash happening over "true to TT fans" and "fans of MechWarrior".
I believe that PGI should make the missile racks seperate hitboxes, yet share the same armor of the side torsos, minus some allocated criticals from the side torso to the racks to not allow "extra crit space". By doing this, it should hold true to TT rules and MechWarrior mechanics. By not allowing more critical space in the side torsos than allowed in the Mad Cat per TT rules, this still allows for individual and specific targeting of the rack's hitbox allowing for better immersion and tactics.
Keep in mind, by doing this and you should happen to destroy a Mad Cats missile rack, PGI should only count the critical spaces allotted from the side torso to the missile rack as ONLY destroyed, leaving the side torsos undamaged and intact (minus ammo explosions and damage transfer).

[Ogresan]

Khobai makes a very good point here. If the Madcat's LRM's get their own location, then it stands to reason that the Atlas' SRM pod should as well. One could also argue this about the AC/20 or the way the medium lasers hang off the arms. What about the Hunchback's hunch? Should it be a "pod" as well? I think a convincing argument could be made for all of these instances, but where do you stop? I don't think this game currently could handle 20 hitboxes per mech.

[Strum Wealh]

Ogresan, on 09 January 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

Khobai makes a very good point here. If the Madcat's LRM's get their own location, then it stands to reason that the Atlas' SRM pod should as well. One could also argue this about the AC/20 or the way the medium lasers hang off the arms. What about the Hunchback's hunch? Should it be a "pod" as well? I think a convincing argument could be made for all of these instances, but where do you stop? I don't think this game currently could handle 20 hitboxes per mech.

Indeed - hence why the missile launchers should remain as they have always been (other than in MW4), as part of the side-torsos.

[Pariah Devalis]

I might get flogged for this, but.... We can expect it to be somewhat redesigned, right? What if the pods were redesigned into flatter and/or more narrow ears? Perhaps a trapezoidal configuration with the widest base against the mech's hull? A simple redesign can do wonders for eliminating the age old physical design flaw of the mech. I am sure there must be a point where they can be reshaped yet the mech still screams Timberwolf.

[UnseenFury]

Are you seriously comparing Timber Wolf's Missile Racks and Atlas' missile tubes? lol

They are a big external physical objects and they must have their own hit boxes. You can't argue with logic.

And how the amount of hit boxes related to lagshield issue we have right now? It might as well be a one big hit box running ahead of a mech.

[WidowMaker91]

finally clan mechs!

[Thorn Hallis]

Holy necro, that topic was a year old.

[RFMarine]

what about separate hitboxes but the armor is shared between the side torso and the pod? although this leads to the unrealistic condition where you shoot the pod until its zero armor then a MG hit on the side torso takes out the side torso

another option would be separate hitboxes but the pod has weightless and costless armor equal in amount or a specified fraction of the amount of armor in the side torso that magically appears. that might behave realistic

[Pinselborste]

the Missile racks on the madcat should have their own hitbox, but they shouldnt have armor unless you add some to them wich would cost you weight.

[RagingOyster]

I like the idea of giving the shoulder pods a seperate hitbox, but the launchers should share the armor value of the side torso.
I usually cast my votes for keeping the game as close to its' TT roots as possible, but in this particular case, as with some others, I think deviating a bit will be better for gameplay.

Edit: oh yeah, and i think you meant when the Timber Wolf is released

Edited by RagingOyster, 23 January 2013 - 04:50 PM.

[Pinselborste]

sharing armor would still be abusable since you could Strip the side Torso from armor that way.
they should be armored like any other Location, maybe make the stock config have 10 armor Points from the side Torso taken and put into the launcher boxes.

[Strum Wealh]

Also, it's not just the Mad Cat that has this issue.

The Thor with its LRM-20 sitting on its shoulder, the Hellbringer with its Warhammer-like missile pod and searchlight, the Cauldron-Born with its own boxy launchers, the Vulture and its side profile (Should hitting the side of the central portion, forward of the missile launchers, count as hitting the center-torso or the side-torso?), the Puma and Masakari with their sizable "hoods", and a few others also have the potential to present some potentially-interesting hitbox issues/questions...

[Pariah Devalis]

How about giving the Timber Wolf a missile bay door like on the Stalker, Catapult, and Centurion? That gives the thing a 10% damage reduction to the armor section when the hatch is closed. It is like free armor that you can toggle on and off by opening or closing the hatch.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 11 January 2013 - 07:10 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Here. A crude idea of what I was thinking as a solution. Canted in missile pods, reduced them to ten tubes with individual doors over each tube for the missile flap armor bonus. Can still look like a timber wolf even with these modifications while granting it a reduced horizontal profile for side torso hits.

And all without inventing new hit boxes or a new mechanism for armor shifting. Easier to implement.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 13 January 2013 - 11:38 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

Pariah Devalis, on 13 January 2013 - 11:25 AM, said:

Here. A crude idea of what I was thinking as a solution. Canted in missile pods, reduced them to ten tubes with individual doors over each tube for the missile flap armor bonus. Can still look like a timber wolf even with these modifications while granting it a reduced horizontal profile for side torso hits.

And all without inventing new hit boxes or a new mechanism for armor shifting. Easier to implement.

Well, they would/should keep the original number of missile tubes. Otherwise, it is a rather workable idea.

Also, an alternative is to wrap the launchers around the upper corners of the boxy portion of the main body, as was done in the artwork for the old BattleTech Collectable Card Game ("CCG").


As another alternative, the launchers could remain distinctly boxy while also be lowered relative to the main body, as was also shown in the CCG.

[Pariah Devalis]

As I said, though, crude idea on my behalf. I am positive missile bay doors should be used, however. After all, that 10 or 12% reduced damage when closed is free armor.

The only issue with the last option is it still retains the excessively wide, easy to hit side torso issue. The first one would work, but it does not look like a timber wolf. I am not sure using the original 15 tubes to represent the LRM-20s makes much sense, either. A smaller arrangement will allow the pods to be smaller, and so harder targets to hit. By reducing it to a 10-pack, it can volley fire 10-10 which would work better against AMS then 15-5, anyways, so it serves two functions.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 13 January 2013 - 07:31 PM.