600 replies to this topic

[Blackfire1]

This was one of the first threads ever made on this forum. How would a respawn be implemented.

My idea was this.
Lets assume there is a set drop weight for every player. Meaning if a player is still under the drop weight they can bring two mech to the field. (ex 90 ton drop limite per person. They can being in 2-3 lights/mediums instead of one assault)

IF the pilot ejected and he brought a spare mech
THEN he would be able to rejoin his lance with a new mech after a specific amount of time.

IF he didn't eject.... well.... boom.
Then.... well it doesn't matter. You went boom.

I even posted the item of making it a minigame during a match. If your light/medium mechs can get to him it lowers his restock timer for his new mech. (3 minutes would be lowered to 1 minutes seconds.)
However if the other teams light mech got to him. He's now a POW and unable to come back till after the fight. (same as if he didn't eject)

This was all theory because we didn't even know how the information warefare would work.

Its a point of is the match only 10-20 mintutes? or is it 30-60+?
If the match is shorter then no respawn wouldn't be too much of an issue.

However once the match hits 25-60 minutes. Respawn of some sort should be applied. Many battles had multiple waves of enemies and allies. So it wouldn't be too much of a problem.

[Dlardrageth]

Alicia Melchiott, on 11 January 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

[...]
So what about no respawn? This type of gameplay is ideal, in my opinion, but unrealistic in a developer's standpoint. In the American market, most players have such short attention spans, it's not even funny. If they can't play their fix of games NOW NOW NOW, they'll get bored and quit immediately. We are America, king of instant gratification. To not have some kind of instant gratification is just a recipe for disaster. I could be wrong, but I would like to see a game where no respawn had a high player base.
[...]

Just two small nitpicks, if I may...

1. Did I miss the dev blog where it has been stated that the game would be for americans or US citizens only to play? Because this sounds somewhat like there's the "american market" with its preferences, and then... um... nothing else. Not going to judge how you depict the average american gamers, but I don't get the impression you'd have to undergo a nationality check before being allowed to play MWO. And thus you might be talking about just one segment of the whole cake (customers worldwide), potentially even not the largest one.

2. I'm pretty positive there is a lot of games out there which have no "respawn" in the classical sense at all. But alas, a lot or most of them aren't FPS either.Which leads to the cardinal question if you view MWO as becoming "yet just another FPS", and if not, why even mention CS, CoD and FPS-specific issues like spawn-camping?

[Nik Van Rhijn]

@Alicia. That was an excellent and thoughtful post. I think many of the no respawn camp could accept the "reinforcement" angle for the campaign game. I still have reservations. Many of us will be playing as Mercs. This means that that payout for loosing a contract will have to cover the cost of repairs for probably multiple mechs per player on the team. This means in my view two game modes. One no consequence, no XP multi respawn for those who want a quick blast . The campaign game with consequences and career progression for those with the time and the patience. There are multiple points of disagreement on this forum. This is merely one. The other thing is that many of us are not from the USA

Edited by Nik Van Rhijn, 11 January 2012 - 02:53 PM.

[Silent]

Kick the player from the match, but allow the game to keep the player updated on these matches. When a match that a player was apart of finishes, the game can shoot up a little reminder, which the player can click on and find out all the details of the match, who won, etc.

Edited by Silent, 11 January 2012 - 02:51 PM.

[Mason Grimm]

Dlardrageth, on 11 January 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

1. Did I miss the dev blog where it has been stated that the game would be for americans or US citizens only to play? Because this sounds somewhat like there's the "american market" with its preferences, and then... um... nothing else. Not going to judge how you depict the average american gamers, but I don't get the impression you'd have to undergo a nationality check before being allowed to play MWO. And thus you might be talking about just one segment of the whole cake (customers worldwide), potentially even not the largest one.

I would further like to add to Dlardrageth's question here....

Grimm's ammendment: "since the Developers (and this here moderator) are Canadian".

[Alicia Melchiott]

You have a good point Dlardrageth, I did forget about the rest of the world. I forgot this game isn't region specific, my apologies. My comments about the market is pretty much moot (though the "must play now" types still exist in masses).

With that in mind, from the developer's blog, I can only assume this is going to be a semi-FPS like experience. It seems like whether you hit your opponent or not is going to be based on if you actually targeted your opponent and if your personal pilot's skill is good enough to actually hit your target. So to answer your question about whether this is going to be viewed as an FPS... yes and no.

I would probably label it as an RPG with FPS game elements if my assumptions of what the developers are trying to convey is correct.

I would also like to enter in one more comment. The developers can also suggest perhaps an "Arena" type of mode where players can get money in some kind of... super battle robot brawl kind of deal. Hell...

Maybe we can gamble on who wins in some kind of honorable gladiator arena...

Edited by Alicia Melchiott, 11 January 2012 - 02:59 PM.

[KingCobra]

This type of Garbage by this person really cranks my buttons.(Alicia Melchiott)

So what about no respawn? This type of gameplay is ideal, in my opinion, but unrealistic in a developer's standpoint. In the American market, most players have such short attention spans, it's not even funny. If they can't play their fix of games NOW NOW NOW, they'll get bored and quit immediately. We are America, king of instant gratification. To not have some kind of instant gratification is just a recipe for disaster. I could be wrong, but I would like to see a game where no respawn had a high player base.
Not only are american gamers great they have wonderfull attention spans Alicia=from where? who knows and i dont think you understand gamming or players in general from where ever they log on and play gammers are gammers nomatter where they live and play from.

[Elizander]

Kdogg788, on 11 January 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

I could be wrong on this but I think I remember in MPBT Solaris, that when you died you were sent back to the chat room.

Indeed the main concern in the respawn vs no-respawn argument is what the dead player will do. If you get blown up or 'die' in a no-respawn mission and the game tells you:

"You're dead and can no longer contribute to this mission. Here are your accumulated rewards. Head back to lobby to find a new game or watch the current game finish from the view of your teammates?"

This system would allow no respawns and prevent a dead player from getting bored out of his skull. You can have the 'win / loss' reward sent to him even after he leaves the game, depending on the game results, but that might be opening the system up to abuse where people go in and die to join as many games as possible to collect the win / loss rewards.

They may or may not put a CD on the mech that was recently destroyed. Perhaps instead of penalizing you for blowing up, you can instead get a bonus of more EXP/C-bills/Salvage on your next mission if you complete the previous mission intact (or at least stay alive long enough and contribute enough damage/check points/objectives - prevent AFKers).

People who play well and don't get pointlessly destroyed early in a game (before they can contribute significantly to the match) can just join a new game while a good player who consistently performs and stays alive gets chain bonuses on the next matches (perhaps cumulative for a string of good victories like 10% + 10% + 10% with a certain cap). You are not penalized for being a noob but you will be greatly rewarded for being a good team player. Of course this is on top of the increased rewards you get for participating in the current match longer. There are many other ways this can be done, of course.

This is just a quick example without much thought for the actual numbers:

Player A dies early all the time and hops through many games and gets perhaps 10%-25% EXP per 2-5 minutes including the time it takes to find a new match. Once he gets better he lives longer, does more, and earns more EXP. He probably gets almost no EXP if he dies without firing a shot to prevent people just suiciding for free EXP.

Player B plays out a full 10-15 minute mission (just as an example) and performs really well (objectives, damage, whatever) and he doesn't get his mech blown up (retreat near the end, play defensively, play smart, etc) gets 100% EXP plus a bonus of 10% on his next (one or more) match.

Player C played well also but he got blown up in the last couple of minutes of the fight (still did objectives and such) and gets 90% EXP but no bonus on his next match.

Edited by Elizander, 11 January 2012 - 03:05 PM.

[SilentWolff]

You know you can avoid an early death in a 20 minute match by sucking less lol

[Ravn]

How hard would it be to implement 2 game worlds? One to satisfy those seeking realism, and one to those seeking quick fun?

[Ravn]

KingCobra, on 11 January 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

This type of Garbage by this person really cranks my buttons.(Alicia Melchiott)

So what about no respawn? This type of gameplay is ideal, in my opinion, but unrealistic in a developer's standpoint. In the American market, most players have such short attention spans, it's not even funny. If they can't play their fix of games NOW NOW NOW, they'll get bored and quit immediately. We are America, king of instant gratification. To not have some kind of instant gratification is just a recipe for disaster. I could be wrong, but I would like to see a game where no respawn had a high player base.
Not only are american gamers great they have wonderfull attention spans Alicia=from where? who knows and i dont think you understand gamming or players in general from where ever they log on and play gammers are gammers nomatter where they live and play from.

Don't flame. I thought it was a pretty good analysis of our marketplace. It's not true across the board, but it's a good generalization.

[FACEman Peck]

I would cry if I had to wait more than one minute to respawn.

[Xavier Truscott]

I don't know about you fellas, but when i drop with a group of people, i'd probably be doing so as part of a unit or clan that i would regularly play with. Most of the time when i die in a no respawn environment, i wouldn't necessarily be looking for a new battle to join with random people while they were still fighting. Maybe it's just me, but regardless of if i got headshot 30 seconds into the match, or stayed in there for 45 mins chasing down that last limping jenner in a slow *** banshee, i'd be expecting to play my next match with the same group. So to me, there wouldn't be much of an issue.

[Alaskan Viking]

It simply isn't MechWarrior if there are respawns. The entire vibe and feel of the huge, lurking, killing machine on some barren planet, marching into battle, just does work with endless magical respawns. The warrior's code, honour, bravery, whatever you want to call it, of sacrificing yourself to help your team, is absolutely meaningless if you will just respawn again in 12 seconds...when there is no respawning death, and inflicting death on your opponent, takes on a whole new, deeper, meaning.

[PewPew]

Alicia Melchiott, on 11 January 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

First off I'd like to describe the difference between various types of respawn gameplay.

In Heroes of Newearth, respawn was near instant and death had severe penalties on your character. You lose experience points every time you die. This breeded better teamwork skills because working together as a team meant better survival. It's also a game that the casuals prefer not to play because...

I don't think you've ever played Heroes of Newerth. Respawn times increase as a function of level and game time. No XP is lost.
The purpose of the respawn system in games like DotA/HoN is not just to provide a disincentive to die, but also because it causes a strategic disadvantage to do so.

To the people who keep mentioning American attention spans, etc. Respawn systems in games are more common now because they're friendlier to all players and because they work well. When you have games with no respawns, the game can be thrown or won by ONE PLAYER. A well made respawn system will still have the penalties of death while mitigating the effects of individuals on the outcome of entire matches.

To the people arguing for realism, this is a damned videogame. If you're going to nerd rage over respawns, just pretend they're reinforcements or something. If you're that hardcore about it, you might as well just quit the game after you die. If you really want no respawns and end up getting what you desire, enjoy playing with the same 200 Mechwarrior fans in your time zone you've been playing with for the past years. This game is not going to survive by only appealing to the extremely a.nal, hardcore fans.

Edited by PewPew, 11 January 2012 - 03:36 PM.

[Rathverge]

"We want a simulation game, not a silly shooter!"

....yet death doesnt matter in that? You die, you die. IMO if you want to help your team leave that match and go practice more otherwise this is an arranged instanced game. Therefore you go in a match, die, win, draw, whatever and then leave that one and que for another. Its a newer concept (10 years old) but it does actually work pretty well. The only implications it has are on arranged team matches with large groups. Sometimes you can be waiting on some clan/company/corp/guild/merc mates to finish a battle, but really if 5-10 minutes is too much I dont think game design is the issue in this matter,

[Morashtak]

There should be repercussions for having your 'Mech blown out from underneath you - It's not some pos econo-box that one can just grab off the dealer's lot. It's expensive to buy and maintain. It may even be your family's 'Mech - one that has been handed down from father to son for generations. It's valuable in several ways.

"But we can't scare away the players that just want to play". siiigh, ok. fine. Three server types - Unlimited spawn, limited spawn, and no spawn servers. Now we can invite all the HALO, et.al., players as well as the semi-casuals/gamers and still have a universe for those lore lovers that want to pretend that their 'Mechs mean something beyond just another way to "wear" cool armor and blow stuff up with bfg's.

Unlimited spawn servers are just that; let those that want to rack up kill vs death numbers do so. Limited spawn servers can rewards those that win with a minimum/fewer number of respawns/reinforcements greater than those that use up most/all their respawns/reinforcements.

Those few remaining will remember the old adage "Those who fight and run away live to fight another day" and have a plan for a tactical withdrawal if/when the other team gets an overwhelming upper hand. They will value their 'Mechs as if it is the only one they will ever have the honor of piloting. They will plan on their plan not surviving first contact with the enemy. They will not rage at each other but help each other learn from their mistakes. And they'll get better. Their universe (no respawn server) will be much the better for it.

Edited by Morashtak, 11 January 2012 - 04:14 PM.

[Alaskan Viking]

PewPew, on 11 January 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

To the people who keep mentioning American attention spans, etc. Respawn systems in games are more common now because they're friendlier to all players and because they work well. When you have games with no respawns, the game can be thrown or won by ONE PLAYER.

It looks like the game will be Clan/guild/Merc Company centric, and there will only be a handful of players on each team, so you could just be careful who you play with.

Quote

To the people arguing for realism, this is a damned videogame.

Thanks for pointing that out, it changes everything. Some people want to play games that mimic reality though, some times for immersion, and some times even for, GASP, gameplay!

Quote

If you're going to nerd rage over respawns, just pretend they're reinforcements or something.

MechWarrior started out as a semi realistic (as realistic as you can be with giant space robots) game some even describe as a "simulator" that is made by and for nerds to rage in.

Quote

If you're that hardcore about it, you might as well just quit the game after you die.

Nice straw man, nobody has ever asked for that. You'd think that if you were going to use a logical fallacy that you would at least try to be original, instead you trod out that tired old line about there being "no respawns in real life" as if everysingle person on here has never heard it before. Every time anyone ask for even a modicum of realism, the Arcade fanbois start shouting "go play ArmA" or jabbering on about how video games are inherently unrealistic, etc. If the realism crowd ask for anything more than a totally arcadey spawn n die Halo style game play the Arcade fanboys cry about how it will be "BOOOOORRRINNGGG!!!11111".

Quote

If you really want no respawns and end up getting what you desire, enjoy playing with the same 200 Mechwarrior fans in your time zone you've been playing with for the past years. This game is not going to survive by only appealing to the extremely a.nal, hardcore fans.

You mean those 200 Mechwarrior/Battletech fans who have played and kept the Franchise alive for 25 years? The same ones who still populate Mechwarrior4/Mektek servers? The same ones who come to this forum and spread hype about the game all over the web? The same "raging nerds" who constitute the "great community" which the developers have stated they are counting on to help carry this game to success?

Yeah, it would suck playing with those fellows....

Just go play MechAssault, I'm sure the nonstop, accessible, action in that game has kept the community alive...

[Larry Headrick]

Morashtak, on 11 January 2012 - 04:10 PM, said:

There should be repercussions for having your 'Mech blown out from underneath you - It's not some pos econo-box that one can just grab off the dealer's lot. It's expensive to buy and maintain. It may even be your family's 'Mech - one that has been handed down from father to son for generations. It's valuable in several ways.

"But we can't scare away the players that just want to play". siiigh, ok. fine. Three server types - Unlimited spawn, limited spawn, and no spawn servers. Now we can invite all the HALO, et.al., players as well as the semi-casuals/gamers and still have a universe for those lore lovers that want to pretend that their 'Mechs mean something beyond just another way to "wear" cool armor and blow stuff up with bfg's.

Unlimited spawn servers are just that; let those that want to rack up kill vs death numbers do so. Limited spawn servers can rewards those that win with a minimum/fewer number of respawns/reinforcements greater than those that use up most/all their respawns/reinforcements.

Those few remaining will remember the old adage "Those who fight and run away live to fight another day" and have a plan for a tactical withdrawal if/when the other team gets an overwhelming upper hand. They will value their 'Mechs as if it is the only one they will ever have the honor of piloting. They will plan on their plan not surviving first contact with the enemy. They will not rage at each other but help each other learn from their mistakes. And they'll get better. Their universe (no respawn server) will be much the better for it.

^ What he said

[MitchellTyner]

If you can respawn we are going to run into the 12 assualt mech thing. There would be no point in scouting etc... just run your guys up in there... blow up stuff or die ... respawn and do it again. waiting 15 minutes to get your xp, credits, etc is what happens when your a bad player or a dumb a##. That's just what happens. If you want 10 second respawns go to BF3 or MW3 and leave MWO alone.

Just my .02
Fox