600 replies to this topic

[Antonoff]

From my point of view, no respawn is core and base of tactical oriented teamwork gameplay.

But, surely, folks must have place, where they can hone their skills and reflexes and get used to equipment behavior, to be battleready for serious engagements.

So, I think, there must be totally unlimited Solaris with all kinds of matches (duel, deathmatch, team deathmatch, capture the base, last man standing and so on) with rewards (XP and C-bills) for frags and huge multipliers in return for better kill/death ratio (to stimulate clever and effective gameplay). It's also important for those kill/death ratios to be calculated on the basis of last 10-20 matches/sessions to give opportunity of fast improvement and punishment for stupidness.

In addition to Solaris, there must be some practice range to master movement of the mech and practice usage of various weapons systems before diving into Solaris sea of fire.

I'd also suggest giving ratings based upon Solaris perfomance to MechWarriors to separate Real Lords of Battletech Combat from those who have so-called "real-life". To create some kind of Leagues(1st, 2nd, Kindergarten) to give opportunity for casuals to experience teamplay tactical combat against competitors of comparable MechWarrior skill.

Sorry for my stupid post.

[XSive Death]

Omigir, on 15 January 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

fined me a game that supports your ideas, there respawn pro people. Please, a simulator game. WoT is thriving and very popular, EvE.. people pay an arm and a leg to play eve. $14/mo.. yeah. they pay that for a game that has no respawn. Once your ship is gone, its gone. and you cant just get back to the battle unless its at your front door.

Perhaps a better definition of what I mean by Respawn? Returning to the field of play after "death". Never made any claim about doing so in the same mech as you were using. Obviously for this game it's a more complex issue because the mech is external to the player.

Quick thought...lets assume the mission has suggested tonnage, reward (cash+XP). Using less that suggested tonnage results in small increase in reward. Going over suggested results in heavy penalty. You spawn, fight...happen to die. You now have the choice of respawning (in a different mech or perhaps using the same one...which has had damage applied and will need repairing/replacing the ammo etc (costing more cash)) but that gets added to your overall mission tonnage causing a great loss to any possible reward for victory.

People then get the option to "respawn" (at a cost) in either the same (costing even more to refit) or different mech. Happen to respawn 10 times in the same destroyed atlas on a 100t level? Sure you won...but you've spent a few million bills constantly repairing your mech...and gone 900% over the recommended tonnage level...meaning you've gained about 1% of the possible reward.

The key issue for myself is whether the game, by design...stops the player from playing (Very bad). As long as you, the player can do something within the game (respawn, join another match, go chat with your comrades etc) it's all perfectly fine. Being forced to sit at a "lolz u died noob" screen for upto 20 minutes however is not.

Edited by XSive Death, 16 January 2012 - 06:55 AM.

[Omigir]

XSive Death, on 16 January 2012 - 06:55 AM, said:

Perhaps a better definition of what I mean by Respawn? Returning to the field of play after "death". Never made any claim about doing so in the same mech as you were using. Obviously for this game it's a more complex issue because the mech is external to the player.

Quick thought...lets assume the mission has suggested tonnage, reward (cash+XP). Using less that suggested tonnage results in small increase in reward. Going over suggested results in heavy penalty. You spawn, fight...happen to die. You now have the choice of respawning (in a different mech or perhaps using the same one...which has had damage applied and will need repairing/replacing the ammo etc (costing more cash)) but that gets added to your overall mission tonnage causing a great loss to any possible reward for victory.

People then get the option to "respawn" (at a cost) in either the same (costing even more to refit) or different mech. Happen to respawn 10 times in the same destroyed atlas on a 100t level? Sure you won...but you've spent a few million bills constantly repairing your mech...and gone 900% over the recommended tonnage level...meaning you've gained about 1% of the possible reward.

The key issue for myself is whether the game, by design...stops the player from playing (Very bad). As long as you, the player can do something within the game (respawn, join another match, go chat with your comrades etc) it's all perfectly fine. Being forced to sit at a "lolz u died noob" screen for upto 20 minutes however is not.

Yeah, the option in the poll wher eit says limited spawn (3 strikes and your out) that is there becuase I asked for it to be there in another thred, Also, this is something that has been kicked around.

What your sugesting though is almost to the point where it is pointless. Any time you come out and your match gives you nothing becuase you spawned to many times, you may as well should have stopped the first death, and gone and found another match.

Also, if you go bad and you actualy spend some time reading, nobody is saying you have to wait out the whole 20 minute match. Like in WoT, you can go and find another match as soon your dead. You can hang out and wiat for the match to end if your dedicated to your team.

You seem like a loan wolf kind of player so i can see how it would be an odd concept that some one would wait 20 minuts for thier team, but many of us 'hard core gamers' will. I know I will.

So again, go back and spend some time reading, there is nothing about 1 per match that stops a player form playing. Just playing the rest of *that* match. there are more matches that are going on, as well as other options. Learn the arguments on both sides before you decide to throw into an argument.

[alVolVloLy]

A lot of this discussion seems to hinge on the matter of "experience points"/rewards and how they are attained and when.

If you can leave a match after a mech is destroyed and still get experience from being in the match, then it's not so bad.

If by leaving the match to play in another you forfeit experience earned, then yes, it is a pretty major hinderance, you are pretty much forced to wait around, doing nothing, or else you gain nothing.

Since the talk around the forums seems to be that XP is going to be important, then it's a pretty valid concern.

[Ulric Kell]

The problem with re-spawning in a game where tactics matter is an additional mech can substantially til the balance. That becomes very difficult to balance correctly.

In order to truly balance a map/mission, re-spawning is going to have to be disallowed.

[Kodiak Jorgensson]

i think Re-spawn option should always be implemented in a game such as this, the games going to be P2P so there should be a set of search options within the game to find the suitable match for you. either with or without respawns limited or un-limited. timed or un-timed.

[alVolVloLy]

Ulric Kell, on 16 January 2012 - 07:26 AM, said:

The problem with re-spawning in a game where tactics matter is an additional mech can substantially til the balance. That becomes very difficult to balance correctly.

In order to truly balance a map/mission, re-spawning is going to have to be disallowed.

Not necessarily. Tactics still matter in respawn. They are just different.

For instance, in a no respawn game, you know exactly how many enemies there are, and you act differently as you whittle them down and can make assumptions based on this knowledge.

In a respawn game there are always more enemies on the way, so you play differently.

Edited by alVolVloLy, 16 January 2012 - 07:45 AM.

[Omigir]

Kodiak Jorgensson, on 16 January 2012 - 07:37 AM, said:

i think Re-spawn option should always be implemented in a game such as this, the games going to be P2P so there should be a set of search options within the game to find the suitable match for you. either with or without respawns limited or un-limited. timed or un-timed.

I dont know what you have read or not read, but from what I have gathered from the Dev Blogs and the Q&A's there are not going to be player hosted games, nor will there be a huge veriety on missions as far as faction warfare goes. I also understand that it looks like faction warfare and information warfare are going to be the main focus of MW:O. I think this is good. Information warfare will be woth nothing if there is respawn, same thing with mech damage/maintinance.

So outside of oh say, Solaris or the training modes, I do not think respawn will work with the BTU.

alVolVloLy, on 16 January 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

Not necessarily. Tactics still matter in respawn. They are just different. For instance, in a no respawn game, you know exactly how many enemies there are, and you act differently as you whittle them down and can make assumptions based on this knowledge. In a respawn game there are always more enemies on the way, so you play differently.

Where I agree that there can be tactics in a 'resawn' enviorment, I think more or less to have that, there will have to be a larger sacrifice in core Battletech and mechwarrior game machanics to support it. I do not like the idea of 'dumbing down' MW:O for players who do not want to just rush in and are afraid they wont be able to play the game.

[MaddMaxx]

A Respawn option is ideal and may be part of the training server, don't know. All I know is that if each Team/Lance were to get 4 respawns each, and each death on a Team removes some XP/C-bills from the winning total, and after those 4 deaths your Match bonus = Zero, then who controls who gets those deaths if we hope to allow LW players access?

If the first time out, some LW player addition consumes all 4 respawns within 5 minutes and then leaves the game LOL'ing at us foo's who now played that Match for Zero Bonus? How long before the term LW in game means a set of players who will get the shaft. Takes but one bad Apple per Unit (this I have seen for myself)

If the Dev want to kill the addition of LW's to the Planetary Battle game? Add respawns, in order to saitiate those few who want to screw over other players game type and then watch as those good LW's will have to play with only other LW's, as the Teams who dealt with one bad LW will prefer to fight Light on Mechs, rather than deal with the ***** LW'er ever again.

That is an ugly reality of such a siutaion so it would be best to have respawn seperate and well away from Planetary combat.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 16 January 2012 - 08:43 AM.

[SumthinBurnin]

instead of playing your own med-evac/recovery vehicle, make you do that for the rest of your team, as penalty for first one dead.

If respawns are allowed, allow you to spawn no more than 3 more times.

Whatever class u lost is locked out (loose a scout drive a med, ect) if u dont have any other mechs then u sit out its your fault.

[Xavier Truscott]

As far as i can tell from reading the rest of the forums, the devs have stated that there are deathmatch, team deathmatch, and a campaign+ game styles already on the board. I would imagine that a campaign style battle would be the only one that is no respawn as it has the persistant map reflecting the results of those battles.

My only worry is that people will just end up playing deathmatch type matches if the xp is on a per kill basis and isn't reduced in gamestyles where you can run in and die 30+ times in 20 minutes getting a few stolen kills here and there. It's a cheap way to ramp up your skills(xp, not necessarily skill) while really learning nothing. So then they have all this experience from playing around in deathmatch style and end up not wanting to play the campaign battles because the only skill they've developed is how to be cannon fodder so it's no longer any fun for them.

Edited by Xavier Truscott, 16 January 2012 - 09:40 AM.

[Kodiak Jorgensson]

Omigir, on 16 January 2012 - 07:53 AM, said:

I dont know what you have read or not read, but from what I have gathered from the Dev Blogs and the Q&A's there are not going to be player hosted games, nor will there be a huge veriety on missions as far as faction warfare goes. I also understand that it looks like faction warfare and information warfare are going to be the main focus of MW:O. I think this is good. Information warfare will be woth nothing if there is respawn, same thing with mech damage/maintinance.

So outside of oh say, Solaris or the training modes, I do not think respawn will work with the BTU.

i think you miss understood, i did not imply or mention any sort of player server hosting. simply that there should be a set of filters if you like, to help players define the kind of match they want to play. imo giving players options filters what ever you want to call them will deliver a better game play experience.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Xavier Truscott, on 16 January 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

As far as i can tell from reading the rest of the forums, the devs have stated that there are deathmatch, team deathmatch, and a campaign+ game styles already on the board. I would imagine that a campaign style battle would be the only one that is no respawn as it has the persistant map reflecting the results of those battles.

My only worry is that people will just end up playing deathmatch type matches if the xp is on a per kill basis and isn't reduced in gamestyles where you can run in and die 30+ times in 20 minutes getting a few stolen kills here and there. It's a cheap way to ramp up your skills(xp, not necessarily skill) while really learning nothing. So then they have all this experience from playing around in deathmatch style and end up not wanting to play the campaign battles because the only skill they've developed is how to be cannon fodder so it's no longer any fun for them.

If many do and PGI can make a profit what's the problem? There are a lot of "hardcore" players who will want to play the "campaign" game and I think that we will win over numbers of those who want a more tactical experiemce that they are not getting perhaps on other games.

[MaddMaxx]

If a Practice Server does come to fruition it would be like learning any other new sport. I remember the first time I went skiing. I couldn't hardly stand up with a pair of ski's on, on flat ground, and then I looked up the mountain and thought, "ya right. No up there for me" The boys laughed and dropped me off on the bunny Hill.

It was not long after I got my legs under me, and the bunny Hill seemed somehow shorter than at first, I thought, "there has to be more to it than this" and I looked back up the mountain.

After 15 runs, 6 wipe outs and a whole lotta crazy FUN with the lads, my kness wore out and I had to go in to the Lodge for some Beers. Learning on the Bunny Hill was a good idea but the Mountain, it was real skiing.

Same for driving a Mech really. Start slow then try and play the Mountain version. Beer never tasted as good after that.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 16 January 2012 - 10:11 AM.

[Morashtak]

Xavier Truscott, on 16 January 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

As far as i can tell from reading the rest of the forums, the devs have stated that there are deathmatch, team deathmatch, and a campaign+ game styles already on the board. I would imagine that a campaign style battle would be the only one that is no respawn as it has the persistant map reflecting the results of those battles.

My only worry is that people will just end up playing deathmatch type matches if the xp is on a per kill basis and isn't reduced in gamestyles where you can run in and die 30+ times in 20 minutes getting a few stolen kills here and there. It's a cheap way to ramp up your skills(xp, not necessarily skill) while really learning nothing. So then they have all this experience from playing around in deathmatch style and end up not wanting to play the campaign battles because the only skill they've developed is how to be cannon fodder so it's no longer any fun for them.

Let the arena players pay for the campaign updates. Once they get bored of LOLcharging and find out they have to be good at working as a team they'll find out what they game was meant to be. Whether they go back to being cannonfodder or join the tactical fun is up to them. (All this assumes that there will be more than one playing style at launch and/or introduced later)

[Omigir]

Kodiak Jorgensson, on 16 January 2012 - 09:37 AM, said:

i think you miss understood, i did not imply or mention any sort of player server hosting. simply that there should be a set of filters if you like, to help players define the kind of match they want to play. imo giving players options filters what ever you want to call them will deliver a better game play experience.

Ok, for those filters to do you any good, you have to have something to filter first. I dont think, unless they make difrent 'levels' of missions, that faction warfare will provide a large veriety in reguards to spawns/nospawns. At that ping they may as well provide missions that have unlimited amo and no heat too.

Now.. In solaris, if it happens like we all want then yes, you are absolutly right.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Great summary Maxx. What has confused me in this is nearly everybody on the No-repawn side has said that it is for the "campaign" game and perhaps some other options. I don't think anybody has said no respawn at all.Personally I think that all starting players should have to complete (and pass) a tutorial before they can play any game. At least they would know how to pilot a mech, select weapons and fire them. That way they have a chance of surviving long enough to start to enjoy it. They could always play up the "difficulty" - it might draw more players - "Do YOU have what it Takes to become a Mechwarrior? See if you can survive our bootcamp and qualify to pilot a 30 feet war robot"

[Omigir]

Well not just that, but 'starting' players should be classed to fight against other starting players. That boils down to match making.

It always pissed me off in CoD when I first started out with 'noob' guns (this is in core, not hardcore) and I was always facing of players who were much higher levels and with weapons that did allot more damage.

Now granted, I know a high end medium mech is not going to do so much more damage then a starter medium mech. But Experinced players are going to have mech/pilot XP already sunk in to make em more effective...

so starter players, if possible, really should square off with other starter players. <Respawn or not, this remains true.>

[dh crow]

Omigir, on 16 January 2012 - 02:54 AM, said:

Dying does not equate to no fun. That is a misconseption. If that were true people would not play any number of games and game types that have this feature and EVE online would not make any money, as it stands, people pay a hefty amount to play that game.

I got a response to a post that was supposed to be an example of flawed reasoning. Damn, I'm good.

[Omigir]

dh crow, on 16 January 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

I got a response to a post that was supposed to be an example of flawed reasoning. Damn, I'm good.

I will admit at the time I did not really understand what 'srawman' was. Though I think im starting to get it now. ~__~ I claim not to be perfect.