113 replies to this topic

[Jack Gallows]

Alexander Caine, on 04 February 2012 - 10:14 AM, said:

Sun-Tzu is one of the greatest leaders the IS has ever seen....not many could have turned the CapCon round the way he did, to say the least.

He's not NICE, but strong leaders rarely are.

Surely turned around CapCon with troops that weren't his. Just think of what the other houses could do if they were as bad as him, your nation would be under Fedcom rule, or Candace would be on the throne and you'd all be a part of St.Ives.

Edited by Jack Gallows, 04 February 2012 - 12:35 PM.

[Alexander Caine]

Jack Gallows, on 04 February 2012 - 12:34 PM, said:

Surely turned around CapCon with troops that weren't his. Just think of what the other houses could do if they were as bad as him, your nation would be under Fedcom rule, or Candace would be on the throne and you'd all be a part of St.Ives.

You say "troops that weren't his" like it was a bad thing. Why use your own troops, ammo, supplies etc when you are smart enough to use somebody elses to do it for free?

And I agree....if the FedCom or St Ives (or any other House) had somebody like him, then the Cap Con WOULD have been obliterated. But again, that's just more evidence at how effective he was.

[Jack Gallows]

Alexander Caine, on 04 February 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

You say "troops that weren't his" like it was a bad thing. Why use your own troops, ammo, supplies etc when you are smart enough to use somebody elses to do it for free?

And I agree....if the FedCom or St Ives (or any other House) had somebody like him, then the Cap Con WOULD have been obliterated. But again, that's just more evidence at how effective he was.

Uh, he abused Star League troops that had just finished fighting the Clans. Basically he sent a clear message that the Confederation can't do jack by itself, and has to rely on the power of other nations to do anything. Nice one! It also sends a message of weakness, and the rest of the IS leaders should have marched back into the Confederation and dethroned Sun-tzu or at the very least put massive sanctions on the Confederation.

And the only reason why Sun-tzu has the throne is because his aunt actually has the moral fortitude to not be a murdering psychopath like Sun-tzu and his side of the family.

These are not things you should celebrate, because he set himself up on a very fragile house of glass and he knew it. Later on, when the confederation wouldn't join the Republic of the Sphere...guess what? You were forced to join, and you couldn't do a damn thing about it.

[Alexander Caine]

I guess we'll have to differ. You seem to judge purely by military strength, whereas I consider brains and political skill just as highly. The fact is, by whatever methods (and all's fair in love and war), Sun Tzu reabsorbed St Ives, took back many worlds lost to the Suns in the 4th War, AND did it with the Inner Spheres smallest military, while losing virtually no resources doing so.

Frankly, the point about the Republic of the Sphere is not really relevant. NOBODY could have fought the Republic and won at that point, period. Fighting them allowed Sun-Tzu to keep the still fragile sense of national pride intact with the Capellan people, even though there was no chance of wining. But he was still smart enough to mothball regiments of mechs for the inevitable fight back.

[Jack Gallows]

I'm mostly considering it from a moral standpoint.

He abused his powers as First Lord of the Star League and had foreign military members fight his war for him, getting a lot of Clan invasion veterans killed.

It's more a comment on how corrupt he is, not his ability to manipulate people (which doesn't help his character that much.)

[Alexander Caine]

Oh, well, from a moral standpoint yes, he is a horrible, vicious, manipulative politician. Then again, i'm not sure he can be blamed for that entirely. If most people had Romano as a mum, Mad Max as a grandfather, and gre up in court on Sian witnessing the consnant madness and bloodshed there, they may well have turned out worse than he did.

Remember that evr since he was born, he was constantly under threat of death from both outsiders, Capellans, and even his own family. At the same time, he learnt to survive in this environment which basically REQUIRED developing lying and cunning, and certainly wouldn't have imparted much in the way of moral values, just the overwhleming desire to not be under the axe on a constant basis.

[trycksh0t]

HIemfire, on 20 January 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

Sun Tzu is not in charge of the Confederation. Romano Liao, his mother, is Chancellor.

(Out of character) Timeline, timeline, timeline. Sun Tzu does not take over till after the Clan Invasion is in full swing and his aunt Candice assassinates Romano for having Justin Allard killed. Romano was trying to have both removed, but Candice had somethiing up her sleeve that caught the assassin off guard. Aside from that, Sun Tzu has the primary focus of trying to get the Confederation back on it's feet after being the bitch in the middle (even with his grandfather's manipulations on certian other Great Houses that is how the Confederation had been treated) for several centuries. He is willing to what ever it takes to do so as long as it doesn't end up with the Confederation in ashes. Are you sure your "friend" isn`t just a closet Davion fan?

Not attempting to derail conversation, just wish to fix a small discrepency. Romano's assassin was taken out by Allard, who had a laser installed when the lower part of his arm was replaced. Candace took the assassin's laser shot to the chest, but she'd had her breast tissue replaced with myomer due to a bout with cancer, which absorbed enough of the energy that she survived. Continue discussion.

[HIemfire]

trycksh0t, on 05 February 2012 - 03:30 AM, said:

Not attempting to derail conversation, just wish to fix a small discrepency. Romano's assassin was taken out by Allard, who had a laser installed when the lower part of his arm was replaced. Candace took the assassin's laser shot to the chest, but she'd had her breast tissue replaced with myomer due to a bout with cancer, which absorbed enough of the energy that she survived. Continue discussion.

Heh.... Thank you for the slight correction. Still my point stands.

[Tuugrymm]

Jack Gallows, on 04 February 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

I'm mostly considering it from a moral standpoint.

He abused his powers as First Lord of the Star League and had foreign military members fight his war for him, getting a lot of Clan invasion veterans killed.

It's more a comment on how corrupt he is, not his ability to manipulate people (which doesn't help his character that much.)

Certainly no other Star Lord has abused his power.

[Ranger207]

I like the Sun-Tzu that wrote the art of war...

[Adridos]

Jack Gallows, on 04 February 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

I'm mostly considering it from a moral standpoint.

He abused his powers as First Lord of the Star League and had foreign military members fight his war for him, getting a lot of Clan invasion veterans killed.

It's more a comment on how corrupt he is, not his ability to manipulate people (which doesn't help his character that much.)

Jack Gallows, on 04 February 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

I'm mostly considering it from a moral standpoint.

He abused his powers as First Lord of the Star League and had foreign military members fight his war for him, getting a lot of Clan invasion veterans killed.

It's more a comment on how corrupt he is, not his ability to manipulate people (which doesn't help his character that much.)

There is nothing such as bad leader = someone who does "bad" things.

Look at Stalin. He was really bad, but if he did not exist, Hitler would be world hero, since with Russia, England would be an easy prey and then...

[Dihm]

Meta-Ethical/Normative relativism?

Divorced from RP, do you REALLY think living in the Confederation would be an enjoyable experience for the average citizen? Certainly there is a tinge of "propaganda" due to character perspective in the novels like The Sword and the Dagger, but everything still hints to it being unpleasant. And there ARE sections of the lore from the POV of the Capellans, and they don't paint an overly glowing picture either.

Sun-Tzu was incredibly successful at playing the game of politics and increasing the worlds that the Confederation controlled, but I'm not sure all the new "citizens" would live "better" lives because of it.

[Alexander Caine]

Dihm, on 06 February 2012 - 07:48 AM, said:

Meta-Ethical/Normative relativism?

Divorced from RP, do you REALLY think living in the Confederation would be an enjoyable experience for the average citizen? Certainly there is a tinge of "propaganda" due to character perspective in the novels like The Sword and the Dagger, but everything still hints to it being unpleasant. And there ARE sections of the lore from the POV of the Capellans, and they don't paint an overly glowing picture either.

Sun-Tzu was incredibly successful at playing the game of politics and increasing the worlds that the Confederation controlled, but I'm not sure all the new "citizens" would live "better" lives because of it.

Well, depends how you define better.

it is fact that Capellan Citizens under Sun-Tzu had a great deal more national pride and genuine loyalty than they did under previous Chancellors. This is because while he WAS fearsome and ruthless, he was generally consistent, unlike Romano and Mad Max.

he went out of his way to reward citizens, and ushered in the "Xin Sheng" era, to make Capellans proud of their heritage and nationality again.

So honestly, all bias aside, I would say that yes, MOST Capellans in the CC (Not St. Ives!) were indeed happier.

Now, whether things were genuinely better or not is a whole different issue, as is the argument about whether or not it even matters as long as people were happier.


So my view is in short:

Were things under Sun Tzu perfect, or ideal? Absolutely not
Were they a crapton better than the last generations got? Absolutely yes
Were people happier? In general, yes.

[Dihm]

I can totally agree that I wouldn't live in nearly as much fear as I would have under Max or Romano!

[Azalie]

The only member of any of the royal families whom I despise more than Katherine Steiner-Davion is Sun-Tzu Liao. However, given his unruly disposition I do enjoy seeing him lash out at other leaders who have also fallen out of my favor.

He complains of the supposed insanity of his family. However, I'd sooner live under Candace or Kai than Sun-Tzu.

[Zectorman]

Everything he did, he did for the Confederaton. To make it powerful or at least make it whole once more. He was a great leader, the one the Confederation needed to bring them back from near death. Idk and neither would he what none capellans think, he was looking out for the nation he led.

[Hopeful Fodder]

I am not a cappie myself, but for bringing the Confederation from the brink, as well a giving the fedrats a galactic middle finger, I have but two words: XIN-SHENG!

As for his abuse of power as the First Lord, I am sure no one else has ever misused the power of a Star League for their own gain at the expense of their rivals. Just look at the conduct of House Davion during the Reunification War!

[Thorn Hallis]

Jack Gallows, on 04 February 2012 - 03:10 PM, said:

Uh, he abused Star League troops that had just finished fighting the Clans. Basically he sent a clear message that the Confederation can't do jack by itself, and has to rely on the power of other nations to do anything. Nice one! It also sends a message of weakness, and the rest of the IS leaders should have marched back into the Confederation and dethroned Sun-tzu or at the very least put massive sanctions on the Confederation.

So what, Theodore did the same with the Lyons thumb. And the Star League troops just did what they were ordered - keeping peace. Of course he couldn't send his own troops, as First Lord of the Star League he had to remain neutral (or at least look that way).
The actual fighting in St. Ives came much later, and it was fought by capellean and canopian troops.

Dihm, on 06 February 2012 - 07:48 AM, said:

Meta-Ethical/Normative relativism?

Divorced from RP, do you REALLY think living in the Confederation would be an enjoyable experience for the average citizen? Certainly there is a tinge of "propaganda" due to character perspective in the novels like The Sword and the Dagger, but everything still hints to it being unpleasant. And there ARE sections of the lore from the POV of the Capellans, and they don't paint an overly glowing picture either.

Sun-Tzu was incredibly successful at playing the game of politics and increasing the worlds that the Confederation controlled, but I'm not sure all the new "citizens" would live "better" lives because of it.

First of, the novels are set in times way before Sun Tzu claimed the celestial throne. Second, the Liao House Book (which I think pre-dates the novles) paints a much different picture of the life of capelleans than the novels did.

Edited by Thorn Hallis, 12 February 2012 - 02:20 AM.

[Azalie]

Most of the novels I've read had Sun-Tzu already in control. The novels I've finished cover the late 3050's to late 3060's.

He's a ****.


I am amazingly surprised that the term which could refer to a very quick movement of a leg or a neck and also to a mild insult is blocked by the system this forum is run under.

Edited by Azalie, 12 February 2012 - 02:57 PM.

[Exilyth]

Sun Tzu Liao? Well, he's the son of Romano... of course he'll be the next chancellor. The boy looks promising, so far. If and how much he comes after his mother ... we'll have to see.


OOC: I wouldn't praise Sun Tzu as the best chancellor, but I'd take him over Romano or Max any day.