130 replies to this topic

[Resist The Dawn]

One thing I've noticed a lot on this forum is the Tabletop Players getting really bent out of shape about changes to the TT rules. While I will not discuss these changes here due to NDA and all that, What I don't understand is why It is such a big deal, since they change these rules to improve the gameplay. I've played a great deal of TT games for years, including Warhammer 40k. When Dawn of war 1 and to a greater extend Dawn of war 2 came out, the weapons and units were nothing like they were in the Tabletop game. The heaviest tanks could eventually be brought down by Machine gun fire, and abstraction necessary to ensure enjoyable gameplay.
And ya know what Happened? Nobody Panicked. Some of the Tabletop players grumbled a bit, but nobody acted like THQ had murdered their first born or anything. So what I'm asking is, why do Battletech players get so upset about things like this? Do you want a good game or not?

[Syclonus]

This thread was not in the table top book so any information provided here is mute and irrelevant.

[Paladin1]

Because, as a 40K player, you're used to having the rules changed every 4-5 years while we Battletech players haven't had the rules change much since 1984. We've spent the last 25+ years balancing and expanding those rules until we can finally say "yeah, we got a rule for that" and mean it.

Yes, there's been minor tweaks over the years to a few rules here and there, but for the most part if you played Battletech in the 80's, you can pick it up again today with little to no learning curve.

So, bluntly put, we get **** when things that we've known to be balanced for decades are being changed and that's all I can say about that without breaking the NDA but you should know what I'm talking about.

[Promptus]

This thread is also the latest in a long line of similar threads.

[Paladin1]

Syclonus, on 09 August 2012 - 09:26 AM, said:

This thread was not in the table top book so any information provided here is mute and irrelevant.

Actually, yes it is. Look in TacOps under "Indirect fire against Rules Lawyers and Games Workshop Targets of Opportunity", page 612, subsection 7, paragraph 12.

[VxSaAgE]

did TT players whine about MW1-4 too? I'm curious to know.

[Alex Wolfe]

Nostalgia is a hell of a drug.

[ThinkTank]

The TT rules are balanced and have passed the test of time for almost 30 years. When these rules are tweaked or discarded for whatever reason, it can create a balancing problem that may have unknown and/or undesirable side effects. The TT rules aren't just there to look pretty, they are the literal foundation of everything Battletech and Mechwarrior.

[Ashnod]

Because maybe the TT was balanced?.. And that some of us would like to finally see a mech warrior based somewhat off it?

[Elessar]

VxSaAgE, on 09 August 2012 - 09:33 AM, said:

did TT players whine about MW1-4 too? I'm curious to know.

Well, MW1 and also MW2 (including the first installment of Mercenaries) IIRC were in many aspects still rather close to TT (especially Mechlab and Mercenary contracts) ... it was under Microsoft, when they more drifted away from it

[Atlas3060]

VxSaAgE, on 09 August 2012 - 09:33 AM, said:

did TT players whine about MW1-4 too? I'm curious to know.

Some did, some saw MW2 as the one true game, and others like me just saw them as ways of hooking people into the Universe itself.

Alex Wolfe, on 09 August 2012 - 09:34 AM, said:

Nostalgia is a hell of a drug.

Pretty much, I've seen people throw tantrums in Tribes Ascend forums because it "wasn't like Tribes 1/2" so I can see Battletech folks doing the same here and in MW:Tactics.

[Graxus]

Never change a running system.

[Rayspace]

Resist The Dawn, on 09 August 2012 - 09:21 AM, said:

One thing I've noticed a lot on this forum is the Tabletop Players getting really bent out of shape about changes to the TT rules. While I will not discuss these changes here due to NDA and all that, What I don't understand is why It is such a big deal, since they change these rules to improve the gameplay. I've played a great deal of TT games for years, including Warhammer 40k. When Dawn of war 1 and to a greater extend Dawn of war 2 came out, the weapons and units were nothing like they were in the Tabletop game. The heaviest tanks could eventually be brought down by Machine gun fire, and abstraction necessary to ensure enjoyable gameplay.
And ya know what Happened? Nobody Panicked. Some of the Tabletop players grumbled a bit, but nobody acted like THQ had murdered their first born or anything. So what I'm asking is, why do Battletech players get so upset about things like this? Do you want a good game or not?

Changes to equipment and rules for live action play is one thing. Changing rules to suit players who cannot manage their heat, won't work as a team, and for whom this games only promise is an attempt to get the highest kill to death ration in deathmatch fashion, will also ultimately be detrimental to the real game play promise Mechwarrior and Battletech have to offer. That is why battletech "purists", for lack of a better term, exist. We want to play the game that requires you to actually manage your mech and to think about what is best for the team objectives.

[Arctic Ice]

I have played TT for years and still do play, and from what i have seen they have not relay made changes to the fundamentals of the rules they had to adapt them to a difrent format. I have no problem with the "rules" changing because of the game mechanics as long as the fundamentals are there, ex. a PPc still generates the correct heat and does the correct damage. and as I know for a fact the TT mechanice were and aare not perfect there are still alot that has to be decided by the players.

[Valaska]

VxSaAgE, on 09 August 2012 - 09:33 AM, said:

did TT players whine about MW1-4 too? I'm curious to know.

YES THEY DID MY GOOD MAN! I've been around since Crescent Hawks Inception (terrible but nice bragging rights lol) and such, people FLIPPED out at MW2 when it wasn't "True to fluff" etc. Personally, I feel EVERY Mechwarrior game thus far has been pure, friggen, gold. Obviously we're excluding mech assault because it was crap.

The Table Top has a lot of problems translating into the game, I mean even here we see breaking of the TT. There's a retarded NDA despite you know almost all of us having the tags but still. More on that to come lol.

But breaking away from the TT's rules completely is a good thing for a P.C game, as there ARE things that should be brought it, or kept out.

[Radgor Ryan]

There is nothing wrong with the TT rules. They have endured being played for decades with little change. I applaud the Developers for sticking closely to TT rules as this sets the very flavor of Battletech.

Of course, in turning those rules into a FPS you have to make modifications. I think they've done this extremely well so far.
What TT players don't appreciate is tinkering with the relationship between one weapon and another. So when a guy whose played no Battletech what-so-ever says 'this gun is too weak, it should be stronger than this other one' it makes us groan, because there is no need to change the basic comparison of one thing to another.

Edited by Radgor Ryan, 09 August 2012 - 09:46 AM.

[Elessar]

Ashnod, on 09 August 2012 - 09:38 AM, said:

Because maybe the TT was balanced?.. And that some of us would like to finally see a mech warrior based somewhat off it?

That´s true of course ...
IIRC not a single MW title so far has managed efficiently, to really implement the inaccuracies of weapons at (for the respective weapon) longer ranges, like we have it in TT (with < 50% to hit probability at long range, even when firing at stationary targets) or the spread of weapons among hit locations, even when firing an Alpha strike

[Haroldwolf]

This is a dead horse.

Piranha decided to not follow all the TT rules. We, that is the community, either like it and play the game or hate it and play something else.

Personally I don't like how they implimented hard point restrictions but it's way too late to influence them and show them the error of their ways.

[Death Knell]

ThinkTank, on 09 August 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

The TT rules are balanced and have passed the test of time for almost 30 years. When these rules are tweaked or discarded for whatever reason, it can create a balancing problem that may have unknown and/or undesirable side effects. The TT rules aren't just there to look pretty, they are the literal foundation of everything Battletech and Mechwarrior.

There are online iterations of the tabletop game. Hex grid turn based games where you simulate dice rolling and all this stuff. Mechwarrior: Online does not seem to be one of those games! Changes have to be made for the fact that the game is balanced around you 'playing' the pilot, not making decisions for a pilot who has a set chance of succeeding at an action in certain circumstances. The game has to be changed to balance such, and I'd personally be upset if they didn't.

[Resist The Dawn]

Paladin1, on 09 August 2012 - 09:28 AM, said:

Because, as a 40K player, you're used to having the rules changed every 4-5 years while we Battletech players haven't had the rules change much since 1984. We've spent the last 25+ years balancing and expanding those rules until we can finally say "yeah, we got a rule for that" and mean it.

Yes, there's been minor tweaks over the years to a few rules here and there, but for the most part if you played Battletech in the 80's, you can pick it up again today with little to no learning curve.

So, bluntly put, we get **** when things that we've known to be balanced for decades are being changed and that's all I can say about that without breaking the NDA but you should know what I'm talking about.

This is exactly why I don't play 40k anymore, arbitrary rule changes every few years and Games-workshop not being able to keep up with their own game. But that's a topic for a different thread. I understand the rules are superbly balanced for the Tabletop, but alterations are necessary to make the game fun and balanced in a Real time setting.

Alex Wolfe, on 09 August 2012 - 09:34 AM, said:

Nostalgia is a hell of a drug.

This seems to be it for the most part. And People don't like change.