157 replies to this topic

[Derick Cruisaire]

For me the higher speed and better armor of the Dragon outwiegh the slightly greater offensive punch of the Centurion.

SilentWolff, on 25 January 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:

I hate to break it to everyone, but the Dragon has always been a crap heavy mech imo. I dont think we EVER used it playing the board game. Now, depending on how tonnage is used for drops, it may find a role in this new game, time will tell.

I have to disagree here. I have had a great deal of success with the Dragon on the table-top. Even against other heavies.

Edited by Derick Cruisaire, 25 January 2012 - 05:02 PM.

[Rhinehart]

Depends on many factors. Mission, Battlefield, and role.

The Centurion to me seems like a good choice for medium range brawler. But in a city or close range environment I'd want the Hunchback.

The Dragon would be good for missions that depend on speed. Escort missions for convoys or even vtols in MW4 were good places to use a Dragon. Also, Dragons would be very common in the Combine and in those areas bordering it, making repair costs possibly cheaper.

However, in a 12 v 12 fight like the devs have described our starting drops to be I like the Dragon for mobile fire support. It's got enough long range firepower to provide good help to a lancemate and enough speed to get from one engagement point to another more quickly than just about any other heavy and some mediums. It's a good design to use in that role both for speed and endurance of the extra armor as that let's it sustain more combat damage, especially if it is not the primary engaging units but fire support. On more or less open terrain it should full this role nicely. I also seem to remember the standard Dragon being very heat efficient, especially when at longer ranges where the medium lasers are Idle.

[Jaegerwolf]

The Dragon is designed as a striker. It's built to get in, shoot the crap out of something and get back out, with it's weight and armor giving it a better chance to survive.

The Centurion is more of a common trooper/bodyguard. It's able to be more mass produced (lower cost) but still able to win a stand up fight on the front lines in a large battle, where speed isn't going to be as much of an advantage. It can also escort commanders or fire support units piloting heavies and assaults without out its slow speed being an issue (in this age 4/6 is actually much more common then you'd think, even with mediums.) It's weapons load out also allows the Centurion to add in it's own long or medium range fire to its charge's attacks.

It's really is PPCs to SRMs here, though since I'm going Davion (unless SOMEONE adds in St. Ives :hint hint:) I'm choosing the Centurion. If I get lucky enough to end up in a leadership role I know I'll be wanting one or two of these big guys watching my back.

[CoffiNail]

Because it is the bloody Centurion! Also, looks to have a much smaller profile.

[Nick Makiaveli]

SilentWolff, on 25 January 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:

The more important question would be, why would you ever run a dragon as a heavy mech at only 60 tons vs any other heavy mech?

Because it's the only mech you own? I mean seriously, it's not like the average (or even exceptional) mechwarrior is a trillionaire who has a stable of every mech ever made.

SilentWolff, on 25 January 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:

I hate to break it to everyone, but the Dragon has always been a crap heavy mech imo. I dont think we EVER used it playing the board game. Now, depending on how tonnage is used for drops, it may find a role in this new game, time will tell.

"imo" says it all. Now sure if I was just playing a one-off TT game with my choice of mechs, it probably wouldn't make the cut. But in a campaign type situation, if I salvaged one and could repair it, I would find a pilot for it.

[Orzorn]

I like to think of it like this:
The Dragon, with its higher armor, speed, and greater range, is clearly made for open fields (where it can soak up any damage and still dish it out just as much with its long range arsenal) or wide ranges with things to dart behind (taking advantage of its speed).

The Centurion, with its lower speed but double-strength autocannon, is clearly at home in a closer range environment (like an arena on Solaris). It is limited to lesser ranges (although, only 2 less in the medium range on the AC-10 compared to the AC-5), but the speed is what would allow a dragon in an open environment to attempt to dominate a Centurion.

[Insidious Johnson]

Dragon is more suited to kiting, the centurion is better suited to steal kited mech kills. I'd prefer the centurion on urban maps or those with heavy cover. Dragon more so on open/missle maps. Either way, I'd prefer to mech lab them both into ballistic monsters with staggered firing groups to keep an opponent's targeting reticle bouncing off me unless its an urban map, then its all about alpha.

[Dlardrageth]

Thorn Hallis, on 25 January 2012 - 04:38 PM, said:

As its 3049 I would expect to see a Grand Dragon variant, which outguns the Centurion.

^^This, to be honest. If people start already phantasizing about a YLW variant of the Centurion with sweaty palms, the DRG-1G would at least be the logical choice to pick for a Dragon variant.

Edited by Dlardrageth, 25 January 2012 - 06:19 PM.

[Miles Tails Prower]

86.4 kph on a 60t chasis is damn fast.

The AC/10 is a wonderful weapon, but you have to combine the fact that every shot the AC/10 fails is devastating. The combination of the speed of the dragon combined with the AC/5 rocking the centurion's cockpit around is going to make firing the AC/10 a real challenge.

The dragon gets to open up with its armaments earlier, and if the pilot has even fair accuracy, he's going to aim to disable the centurion's AC/10 arm.

But here's the main point.

The dragon and the centurion have different roles. The centurion is balanced to fight in a variety of roles while the dragon is more of an archer, if the mission you are embarking on is relying on a lot of coordinated movement, I'd pay the extra c-bills to be in a swifter machine that can choose where it gets to fight more easily. But if I were in more of a slug fest especially in difficult terrain, I'd want the man-to-man firepower and low cost of a centurion.

[Karyudo ds]

Akane Yashiro, on 25 January 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

The dragon should not be thought of as a heavy. It is a chunky medium. If the wolverine. Is a medium then the dragon is surely close enough.

But does the game consider it a heavy and is that important? We don't really know everything yet from MWO's perspective (assuming it's slightly different from Battletech after all).

Either way I would probably go with the Centurion, like the look more. Not as fast, but I usually ended up, up-close in the other games anyway.

[Canned_Dman]

You are also comparing to different factions so really, there would be less chance of picking one over the other but rather one fighting then other.

[SilentWolff]

Derick Cruisaire, on 25 January 2012 - 04:56 PM, said:

I have to disagree here. I have had a great deal of success with the Dragon on the table-top. Even against other heavies.

Then I salute you sir! I have always preferred mechs a little further down the chain with more tonnage, like a Marauder, Grasshopper, Orion or Thunderbolt.

Nick Makiaveli, on 25 January 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

"imo" says it all. Now sure if I was just playing a one-off TT game with my choice of mechs, it probably wouldn't make the cut. But in a campaign type situation, if I salvaged one and could repair it, I would find a pilot for it.

You said it yourself, it probably wouldnt make the cut. All i'm saying is, there are clearly better heavy mechs to choose from.


Let me also say, MWO obviously has a role in mind for the Dragon. Thats great. There are far too many chassis's that are seldom used for whatever reason, the Dragon being one of them. Dragon is old school too, so I'd like to see it gets its due.

[Treffies]

Miles Tails Prower, on 25 January 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

86.4 kph on a 60t chasis is damn fast.

The AC/10 is a wonderful weapon, but you have to combine the fact that every shot the AC/10 fails is devastating. The combination of the speed of the dragon combined with the AC/5 rocking the centurion's cockpit around is going to make firing the AC/10 a real challenge.

The dragon gets to open up with its armaments earlier, and if the pilot has even fair accuracy, he's going to aim to disable the centurion's AC/10 arm.

I like the way you think

[SMDMadCow]

What and 64.8 kph is slow? Difference of ~20 kph in speed is not that much. On the TT the Dragon only gets 2 more hexes, which is not enough to maintain distance in open ground. The ONLY edge the Dragon has over the Cent is in physical attacks, specifically charging attacks and in maybe getting 1 volley off before the Cent gets in range. So, no it's speed does not dictate the engagment range.
1.5 tons of armor is not a lot when it gets dispersed over the whole mech, and 10 tons or armor is on the light side for a heavy mech.
The Grand Dragon can't fire it's ppc and lrm without overheating really fast, and both have a minimum range.

The Centurion makes more efficient use of weight / speed / firepower / armor all while being 10 tons lighter, and having an AC 10.
That's why I would pick a Centurion over a Dragon.

[Kaemon]

*rolls eyes*

Heavies...always crying about speed and armor...

You've all been scouted and have incoming mail.

/scout
//your welcome.

Edited by Kaemon, 25 January 2012 - 09:03 PM.

[Solis Obscuri]

Presumably because I got got drunk one night and woke up in the cockpit the next morning... no gnawing my arm off to get away now...

I like the Centurion, it's a good, well rounded, robust design, with decent armor and a lot of firepower for its size, and even if it's ammo dependent, it has plenty of ammo (and hell, you might as well use it before someone punches through your armor!). The Dragon has better speed and armor, but that's about it, not really enough ammo to sustain an engagement, so it amounts to sort of an overbuilt raider, fast, good hit and run weapons, more armor than it needs at range against most designs in it's weight class, but lacking the firepower or ammo reserves to really duke it out. It's a heavy design that's ok for running down lighter 'mechs, and ok for harassing other heavies that can't catch it in the open field, but that's about it - the Dragon is to heavies as the Assassin is to medium 'mechs.

Now, give me the option of a Griffin or a Quickdraw...

[Agent CraZy DiP]

The only reason to pick a Dragon over the Centurion was because the Centurion looked goofy. With the new sleek look, it's Centurion all the way.

[Kasiagora]

On tabletop a difference of two hexes may not be enough to keep a distance, but to-hit modifiers were based off the number of hexes moved by each mech as well. So if your Dragon can move a bit faster you should use that to your advantage because moving 5-6 hexes was a +2 modifier to hit where as moving 7-8 hexes is +3. It may not seem like much but the chances of getting a 7 or better on 2d6 is 58.34%, whereas the chances of getting an 8 or better drops to 41.67%. That's a difference of 16.67% (I don't know any of this off hand, I'm using Google and a calculator as I go).

That being said, I've never used a Dragon and was surprised at how fast they are. If I were to use one against a Centurion where urban terrain is involved, I'd either try to stick to the outskirts where shorter buildings are so I don't get drawn into a close-quarters battle. And if I did have to go in to flush the guy out I'd start throwing my weight around for what advantage I can get. A charge in close combat can do a lot of damage, even more if I push him into a building and kick him while he's down.

EDIT: Caught myself using "you're" when I should have used "your" and that means I've been up too long. Well, that and the fact that every other word had to be spell checked. quality control.... failing... sleep's for the weak... ain't scured uh nothin'...

Edited by Kasiagora, 26 January 2012 - 02:54 AM.

[EDMW CSN]

There there is a vanilla dragon upgrade that uses a PPC, which deals the same damage as a cent at a greater range and still maintaining good road speed. It can literally plink a Cent to death with the LRM and PPCs.

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 26 January 2012 - 03:12 AM.

[Brakkyn]

I'd just like to say these types of conversations are why stock/canon variants = win. Discuss the merits of the weapons, the armor, the speed, how one is better and why--instead of MechLabbing a base chassis into two identical vehicles.

I would personally choose the Centurion. It may be slower and have less armor, but all you need is to close the distance. The AC5 may have a longer range, but they have to hit you; the Dragon may be faster, but they'll have to slow to fire accurately.

In close range, the Centurion can tear into you with more firepower; the Dragon may have more long-range capability, but as I said, they'll have to be able to hit you. In an urban setting, the Centurion will win; on an open battlefield, it's a stalemate.